Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

I hate Whack-a-Nodes...

    • 338 posts
    March 27, 2015 7:25 AM PDT

    What if instead of whack-a-nodes for harvesting it was instead more like EQ1 foraging.

     

    Like you could have the skills Foraging, Logging, Mining, Fishing, Scrounge Water and

    depending on your skill level and the area your in you would just get a common, uncommon,

    or rare when you clicked it. The items you get could be different depending on what zone your

    in just like Foraging in EQ1.

     

    This gives players something extra to do during downtime without having to run around looking

    for nodes.

     

    To keep everyone from just raising these skills maybe you can only specialize in one or maybe the

    tools could be very expensive and break a lot. These skills would also go up very slowly and could

    have cooldowns attached.

     

    Thanks for reading,

    Kiz~

    • 1434 posts
    March 27, 2015 7:39 AM PDT

    I think if crafting is going to produce items that are worthwhile, gathering resources needs to be much harder than hitting nodes throughout zones or pushing a button that can be easily macroed while afk.

     

    We are actually discussing this on the Pantheon forum on mmorpg.com.  My suggestion was that nodes come from areas heavily infested with mobs, in dungeons, or that the resources should just be a drop from group content.  I would say at least one of the items necessary for every combine should be dropped.

     

    If players can solo farm crafting materials, that means theres solo item progression, which will in turn enable players to level up by themselves.  I for one am tired of solo mmorpgs, so I hope this is not a thing.

     

    • 338 posts
    March 27, 2015 8:09 AM PDT

    Well yes I agree but what I'm saying is make the best areas to do this in the most dangerous.

     

    Kiz~

    • 3016 posts
    March 27, 2015 1:44 PM PDT
    Dullahan said:

    I think if crafting is going to produce items that are worthwhile, gathering resources needs to be much harder than hitting nodes throughout zones or pushing a button that can be easily macroed while afk.

     

    We are actually discussing this on the Pantheon forum on mmorpg.com.  My suggestion was that nodes come from areas heavily infested with mobs, in dungeons, or that the resources should just be a drop from group content.  I would say at least one of the items necessary for every combine should be dropped.

     

    If players can solo farm crafting materials, that means theres solo item progression, which will in turn enable players to level up by themselves.  I for one am tired of solo mmorpgs, so I hope this is not a thing.

     

    Or the annoyance of  bots positioned over node spawning points for hours on end... Coming upon harvest resources,  should be something that surprises you,  can't be seen, but server generated,  depending randomly on how many times you foraged in that area after so many tries or minutes.    A little work for your reward.  :)

     Knowledge of that area map...after some while you would know what resources can be harvested from that area,  or even consulting with player made maps (special cartography maps that briefly indicate which land mass may contain what harvest resources. with possibilities of rares.)

     Bots hovering over nodes is just so...unimmersive,  and besides something needs to happen to discourage them. 

    Don't know if my suggestion is even possible...but would be on my wish list :)


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at March 27, 2015 1:49 PM PDT
    • 3016 posts
    March 27, 2015 1:56 PM PDT
    Angrykiz said:

    Well yes I agree but what I'm saying is make the best areas to do this in the most dangerous.

     

    Kiz~

     

    I believe Saga of Ryzom does this..not only do certain resources only spawn at certain times of the season  (they have 4 seasons that happen one behind the other..4 days of Spring, 4 of Summer,  Fall..Winter etc.)    and some crops only spawn when it rains, snows..rares only drop at certain times,  then they have a specific PVP area where certain crops/rares spawn,  and not only do you have pvp to contend with (you go in with the idea its pvp)  also roaming trains of pretty dangerous mobs.     Again another way to scare away botters and make things less predictable or set up for easy pickings. 


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at March 27, 2015 1:58 PM PDT
    • 87 posts
    March 27, 2015 3:02 PM PDT

    I liked the way Skyrim did their metal nodes. They looked like part of the strata and didn't have the name of the node hovering above it.

    • 308 posts
    March 27, 2015 7:50 PM PDT

    i too would like to see something better than the current node system, although putting nodes in places only groups can get to means less ability to gather materials.

     

    in most games 99% of people you group with will complain about the guy that is gathering when they want to kill

    • 9115 posts
    March 27, 2015 8:41 PM PDT

    I really enjoyed the way VG handled Crafting and Harvesting, I think with a few tweaks that style would suit Pantheon really well.

    • 1434 posts
    March 28, 2015 12:37 AM PDT
    Gawd said:

    i too would like to see something better than the current node system, although putting nodes in places only groups can get to means less ability to gather materials.

     

    in most games 99% of people you group with will complain about the guy that is gathering when they want to kill

    Thats because in most games, you can do that (and just about anything else) by yourself and on your own time.  If harvesting is something achieved only with groups, it will quickly become acceptable for people to take time to do so.

    • 133 posts
    March 28, 2015 6:31 AM PDT
    Angrykiz said:

    Well yes I agree but what I'm saying is make the best areas to do this in the most dangerous.

     

    Kiz~

     

    I like this idea, take the VG harvesting system and tweak it so areas have a "risk modifier".  This means when a node spawns in a low risk, or med risk, or high risk area is affects the out come.  So for say VG style, you get more yield from a Stone node deep in a dungeon than out on the surface, as well as a better chance of "bonus" yields.

     

     


    This post was edited by Exmortis at April 13, 2015 9:30 AM PDT
    • 133 posts
    March 28, 2015 6:38 AM PDT
    Kilsin said:

    I really enjoyed the way VG handled Crafting and Harvesting, I think with a few tweaks that style would suit Pantheon really well.

     

    Yes agreed.  but there were a few real boners in VG crafting that need to be fixed. 

     

    Larger items require more mats, it always made me laugh that it took 1 copper bar to make a copper dagger, and one copper bar to make a great sword!

     

    Crafted items need to be well balanced within game, I would like to see looted and crafted items have a few unique affects.  This means they need to be a part of the games itemization not outside.  VG and EQ2 did massive re-itemizations and left crafted goods out in the cold, thankfully that dev is no longer here to do it a third time.

     

    Crafted affects have to be balanced within them selves, Vanguard had dusts that never got used because they were weaker then the rest.

     

    Take VG harvesting and add the idea of risk vs reward modifier. ( I just love this idea )

     

    Make harvesting and Decon the only way to get crafting mats or magic crafting enhancements, except for some rare loot drops (high powered named/Raid mobs drop special crafting enhancements so you can crafter or upgrade raid gear).

     

    Decon is its own skill, that any crafter can have, make it require expended tools and a crafting station.  This opens up a great way for adventures to make coin, by selling their loot to crafters.

     

     


    This post was edited by Exmortis at March 28, 2015 6:40 AM PDT
    • 1434 posts
    March 28, 2015 6:47 AM PDT
    Exmortis said:
    Kilsin said:

    I really enjoyed the way VG handled Crafting and Harvesting, I think with a few tweaks that style would suit Pantheon really well.

     

    Yes agreed.  but there were a few real boners in VG crafting that need to be fixed. 

     

    Larger items require more mats, it always made me laugh that it took 1 copper bar to make a copper dagger, and one copper bar to make a great sword!

     

    One crafted items need to be well balanced within game, I would like to see looted and crafted items have a few unique affects.

     

    Crafted affects have to be balanced within them selves, Vanguard had dusts that never got used because they were weaker then the rest.

     

    Take VG harvesting and add the idea of risk vs reward modifier. ( I just love this idea )

     

    Make harvesting and Decon the only way to get crafting mats or magic crafting enhancements, except for some rare loot drops (high powered named/Raid mobs drop special crafting enhancements so you can crafter or upgrade raid gear).

     

    Decon is its own skill, that any crafter can have, make it require expended tools and a crafting station.  This opens up a great way for adventures to make coin, by selling their loot to crafters.

     

     

    I'm pretty sure having weapons require the same amount of ore was an economic balancing issue.  If a dagger and sword are both 1-handed, of the same tier, with a similar dps, it makes sense for the amount of ore required to be the same.  You could assume that some of the excess ore for the dagger was discarded if it makes you feel better, lol.  Perhaps some other component could be added to make it more believable.  Another way would be to have ore be the more common material and the other parts would be the rarer, higher risk, parts of the recipe.  That way throwing in more ore wouldn't really skew the actual price of the materials.

    • 89 posts
    March 28, 2015 10:59 AM PDT
    Gawd said:

    i too would like to see something better than the current node system, although putting nodes in places only groups can get to means less ability to gather materials.

     

    in most games 99% of people you group with will complain about the guy that is gathering when they want to kill

    The simple solution to this problem is bringing back combat downtime.  When you need to wait for the cleric to med up nobody cares that the warrior is mining, so long as he doesn't aggro something.

    • 288 posts
    March 28, 2015 1:12 PM PDT
    Kilsin said:

    I really enjoyed the way VG handled Crafting and Harvesting, I think with a few tweaks that style would suit Pantheon really well.

     

     

    I don't think I've heard of a single thing you didn't think VG did perfectly, we should just emulate that game and scrap Pantheon!

     

    I do not like node farming whatsoever, it's totally unrealistic and un-immersive for resources to just be readily taken from areas.

     

    I think the only source of components should be off of NPCs, from both deconstructing their item drops and from actual component drops from miners etc, or from areas like actual mines or logging camps, as a purchasable resource.


    This post was edited by Rallyd at March 28, 2015 5:17 PM PDT
    • 311 posts
    March 28, 2015 1:58 PM PDT

    I'm also in the VG did ever thing right it was second to no other game out there then or now till patheon will come out. I dont see how node whacking is un emersive, cause that is how you find things out in the real world. Purchasing is easy mode all you haveto do is go buy it. When you have to go out in the real world and actually have to look for it is more emersive. I don't thing it should be spawned every where but most metals should be found in mountains and rivers, trees should be found in forests, plants should be found just about anywhere, leather should be from animal hides. Harvesting should be like VG and it be a whole nother game that you have to lvl. So if you can't find a group or you wanna make money you have harvesting or crafting. (Waiting for the diplo to come in later or if we get the money and extra devs when the game comes out). I also think you should be able to deconstruct armor and weapons to give pure adventurers an avenue to make a lil money off the crafters. No buying please (off of vendors). 

    • 308 posts
    March 28, 2015 2:54 PM PDT

    at the very least nodes need to respawn randomly all across the zone. make harvesting circuits impossible. in VG i could run the same loop in like 5 different zones to get the mats i need; with the first node mined repopping soon as i arrived at it. this locked other players out of being able to mine those zones. but the team harvesting mechanic was fun.

     

    another thing that could make the node farming better is the respawn timer. make nodes respawn in terms of hours instead of mins.

    • 49 posts
    March 28, 2015 5:07 PM PDT
    A fun alternative method was done in Xsyon, a crafting/building mmo. You could harvest anywhere depending on the type of ground underneath you. Once harvested it would remember the area and it would (veeeery slowly) regenerate. There was no indication of previous harvesting efforts, which I'd prefer.

    There was a bar indicating the types of material present in the area (metal when on rock, grass on grass, etc).

    Depending on world size and population, this may not be feasible.
    • 9115 posts
    March 28, 2015 5:13 PM PDT
    Rallyd said:
    Kilsin said:

    I really enjoyed the way VG handled Crafting and Harvesting, I think with a few tweaks that style would suit Pantheon really well.

     

     

    I don't think I've heard of a single thing you didn't think VG did perfectly, we should just emulate that game and scrap Pantheon!

     

    I do not like node farming whatsoever, it's totally unrealistic and un-immersive for resources to just be readily taken from areas.

     

    I think the only source of components should be off of NPCs, from both deconstructing their item drops and from actual component drops from miners etc, or from areas like actual mines or logging camps, as a purchasable resource.

    VG took risks and did a lot of things right, they also did a lot of things wrong and I would just as quickly say I don't want that done like it was in VG if a topic was brought up, so far, the Classes, Combat, Raiding, Crafting and Harvesting for me was some of the best I have seen, I enjoyed it a lot.

     

    They are not perfect by any means and we will always be putting a Pantheon spin on it to make it our own but I would like to see heavy influence from VG in some of these area's.

     

    You don't like node farming and I do like it, we both put forward our opinions and discussion continues, if I called everyone out for liking something in EQ and said we should just scrap Pantheon and direct everyone to the P99 servers it wouldn't be taken very well at all, everyone is entitled to their opinion mate, whether you agree with it or not.

    • 112 posts
    March 29, 2015 11:22 AM PDT

    WTF kilsin I don't want p99, I want pantheon to be just like it but new!

     

    Everyone has their opinions, and in most cases it's easiest to reference whichever game did it best, rather than trying to put into words all the different elements that went into making something function correctly in a game.  Hence why you see me refer to EQ constantly in posts - I know a good amount don't like certain things from it, so I expect the disagreements and hope for the most similarity to EQ (in pantheon) that I will see. 

     

    As for nodes I am fine with it mostly, there must be a method for gathering materials for crafting, I do think a good amount should be attained from dungeon/group-mob's.  Someone used the example of a warrior mining while the cleric meds - but what happens when it is everyone waiting for that same cleric who isn't great to begin with, and manages mana poorly, who is now also taking time to mine...  it will get on peoples nerves, but then again if the game is made correctly (very group dependant) then people will mind their manners and be more patient than current games where every class/player is one in a thousand (if not one in a million).

     

    Honestly all I need from the dev's is a well class-balanced game, with the proper difficulty on mobs/content to make grouping far more appealing than trying things solo, and a death penalty that will make me talk-out-loud to myself with encouragement to survive close fights or have a "AWWW SO CLOSE!" comment as I die a split second from the zone line.

    • 1434 posts
    March 29, 2015 6:18 PM PDT
    Lokkan said:

    WTF kilsin I don't want p99, I want pantheon to be just like it but new!

     

    Everyone has their opinions, and in most cases it's easiest to reference whichever game did it best, rather than trying to put into words all the different elements that went into making something function correctly in a game.  Hence why you see me refer to EQ constantly in posts - I know a good amount don't like certain things from it, so I expect the disagreements and hope for the most similarity to EQ (in pantheon) that I will see. 

     

    As for nodes I am fine with it mostly, there must be a method for gathering materials for crafting, I do think a good amount should be attained from dungeon/group-mob's.  Someone used the example of a warrior mining while the cleric meds - but what happens when it is everyone waiting for that same cleric who isn't great to begin with, and manages mana poorly, who is now also taking time to mine...  it will get on peoples nerves, but then again if the game is made correctly (very group dependant) then people will mind their manners and be more patient than current games where every class/player is one in a thousand (if not one in a million).

     

    Honestly all I need from the dev's is a well class-balanced game, with the proper difficulty on mobs/content to make grouping far more appealing than trying things solo, and a death penalty that will make me talk-out-loud to myself with encouragement to survive close fights or have a "AWWW SO CLOSE!" comment as I die a split second from the zone line.

    I could see resource gathering becoming a specific reason for people to group.  "LFMG (mining group) in Spine Break mountain/mines area for blacksmith/jewelcraft resources!"  If you have to prospect and actually hit the rock face on a mountain or in a cave or mine, that would be a step in the right direction from nodes.

     

    I think we can all agree we like the underlying principles in EQ that made the world feel just a little more alive than your modern MMORPG.  When it comes to suggesting ideas, I usually like anything that is in that same spirit of immersion and adventure that promotes a more realistic implementation of any feature of old.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at March 30, 2015 3:20 AM PDT
    • 112 posts
    March 30, 2015 3:27 AM PDT

    Just goes to show the mindset I've fallen into.  In EQ you'd do a dungeon crawl for someone else a good amount of the time.  Camping a mob for a single item, quest, or epic quest.  That's just not necessary these days with group finders etc. 

     

    So when you say LFMG... I can see this occuring.  A whole dungeon designed around a mineral deposit of a certain type.  To the point that the main reason to go to the dungeon is for the nodes/veins/gems.  It'd also be a nice way to get higher levels out of a lower level area farming nodes - would you (in a decent guild) go spend a day farming nodes in the wild, or just bring guildies along and go hit a dungeon to get a large supply.

    • 999 posts
    March 30, 2015 5:19 AM PDT

    One area mentioned, but not fleshed out in the above posts that I did really like about VG harvesting was obtaining materials off of mobs themselves outside of just droppable materials.  Like.. Treants could be chopped for lumber, Stone Minions could be harvested for quarrying, wolves could be skinned for tailoring, etc.  I thought it added to the realism and made gathering resources more enjoyable as I prefer adventuring over tradeskilling.

     

    Could be the best of both world scenarios where some of the most sought after materials could only be harvested off the highest level mobs deep in dungeons, etc.

    • 338 posts
    March 30, 2015 5:20 AM PDT

    Not one comment on my idea from the first post ...

     

    What if instead of nodes you just clicked your skill key and depending on where you are you just get an appropriate item like in EQ1 foraging ?

     

    In addition to prevent people from just maxing all the harvesting skills maybe only one could be raised to a Master skill level kind of like a specialization.

     

    This cures all the stupid looking whack a nodes from the world.

     

    Harvesting skills should also have a bit of a cooldown in addition to the global cooldowns so you don't just sit there and spam them.

     

     

    Please comment,

    Kiz~

     

    Oh and also what Raidan said in the post above of course...


    This post was edited by Angrykiz at March 30, 2015 5:23 AM PDT
    • 999 posts
    March 30, 2015 5:46 AM PDT
    Angrykiz said:

     

    What if instead of nodes you just clicked your skill key and depending on where you are you just get an appropriate item like in EQ1 foraging ?

     

     

     

    .

    I like the idea of being able to harvest materials native to the area - in a cave there should be ore/metals for smithing and moss/herbs for poisons/alchemy.  But, to me, it's really no different than nodes.  

     

    Instead of seeing the materials, you simply click a button to harvest invisible nodes with a x% chance of success.  And, if your player still shows the harvesting action (like swinging a pick-axe), then I would even argue that its perhaps less realistic if someone was just swinging at the cave floor versus harvesting a visible node and obtained ore.  And, if they didn't have a harvesting cast-timer and it was a simple button click with no timer and a global recast, then foraging for materials using that method is most definitely less realistic.

     

    I like the idea in principle in that materials gathered should be native to that zone/zone specific, but, I wouldn't vote in favor for a simple EQesque forage button as the harvesting mechanism.

    • 338 posts
    March 30, 2015 5:57 AM PDT

    I see your point Raidan, I'm just trying to get to a where harvesting isn't something you set out to do instead its just something that you do while other adventures are happening.

     

    I have never played a game where harvesting is fun so I guess I just can't imagine a system for it that would be interesting and engaging.

    With that in mind I'd rather just make it something you do during downtime.

     

    Thanks for you response,

    Kiz~

     

    Oh ya and I still think Whack a nodes make the world look stupid..

     

    edit: hmm maybe if the whack a nodes weren't just individual little hits like in other games... instead they could be a bigger node.

    Like what if in a cave there was just a big ore vein that had say 500 ore in it and just depleted as people mined it ... also while you mined it made noise that would anger the local cave dwellers...

     

    Or if you chopped down a big tree and it was worth 200 logs that could be slowly chopped out of it but while you chopped bees would swarm out every once in a while.


    This post was edited by Angrykiz at March 30, 2015 8:31 AM PDT