Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Anyone else tired of the ego stroking

    • 105 posts
    March 26, 2015 12:20 PM PDT

    It has gotten embarrassing how recent MMORPGs seem to feel the need to stroke players egos. In Elder Scrolls Online the first real quest I did was to follow a dog, which led to a plot to assassinate the king. Cool enough, but then everywhere I go after that I hear:

     

    Did you hear? Some stranger saved King Cassimir's life! I'd like to buy that hero an ale.

     

    Sure, it is a little thing, but I'm barely in the world an hour and everywhere I go the game is calling me a hero. First of all it's not realistic, it's like hearing Harrison Ford survived a plane crash and saying, did you hear his plane survived the crash, I'd like to buy the designer of the plane an ale. That aside, at the very least shouldn't that kind of praise be reserved for someone who has struggled through many levels and done enough to become well known, not a level 2 character. Do they think I need a game telling me how great I am to keep me playing. I just don't get it.


    This post was edited by Kayd at March 26, 2015 2:39 PM PDT
    • 89 posts
    March 26, 2015 1:06 PM PDT
    Kaydis said:

    It has gotten embarrassing how recent MMORPGs seem to feel the need to stroke players egos. In Elder Scrolls Online the first real quest I did was to follow a dog, which led to a plot to assassinate the king. Cool enough, but then everywhere I go after that I hear:

     

    Did you hear? Some stranger saved King Cassimir's life! I'd like to buy that hero an ale.

     

    Sure, it is a little thing, but I'm barely in the world an hour and everywhere I go the game is calling me a hero. First of all it's not realistic, it's like hearing Harrison Ford survived a plane crash and saying, did you hear his plane survived the crash, I'd like to buy the designer of the plane an ale. That aside, at the very least shouldn't that kind of praise be reserved for someone who has struggled through many levels and done enough to become well known, not a level 2 character. Do they think I need a game telling me how great I am to keep me playing. I just don't get it.

    Well, first of all saving the King's life and surviving a plane crash are so different as to be ridiculous to compare.  Second, the problem isn't that NPCs comment about players doing heroic things, the problem is that a quest with such huge ramifications is given as a newbie quest.  It's honestly pretty cool to have NPCs talk about things you did and are doing, but this should be something that happens at later levels rather than early ones.

    • 25 posts
    March 26, 2015 1:24 PM PDT

    It's definitely something the team will probably need to tackle at some point. Temper peoples expectations and let them know that in this game you have to fight for what you want rather than soloing a couple quests or using an LFR, as an example.

     

    They've already taken steps in this direction. Brad frequently lets people know that this is a game that's going to reward time invested and it's normal for people who higher play time to have accomplished/achieved more than newer/less invested players.

    • 3016 posts
    March 26, 2015 2:37 PM PDT
    Kaydis said:

    It has gotten embarrassing how recent MMORPGs seem to feel the need to stroke players egos. In Elder Scrolls Online the first real quest I did was to follow a dog, which led to a plot to assassinate the king. Cool enough, but then everywhere I go after that I hear:

     

    Did you hear? Some stranger saved King Cassimir's life! I'd like to buy that hero an ale.

     

    Sure, it is a little thing, but I'm barely in the world an hour and everywhere I go the game is calling me a hero. First of all it's not realistic, it's like hearing Harrison Ford survived a plane crash and saying, did you hear his plane survived the crash, I'd like to buy the designer of the plane an ale. That aside, at the very least shouldn't that kind of praise be reserved for someone who has struggled through many levels and done enough to become well known, not a level 2 character. Do they think I need a game telling me how great I am to keep me playing. I just don't get it.

     

    Walk two steps, find the quest giver,  get a cookie.  After testing ESO a few times in beta,  nothing about that game caught my interest,  or challenged me.     I love Elder Scroll games which is why this was a large disappointment to me.     Holding out for Pantheon.  :)  And about the ego stroking...if it was repetitive it would irritate me after awhile...mention it or list it as a low level achievement.     People don't need their hands held like that..or their egos stroked non-stop.       As you say, unrealistic.    Perhaps there are gamers out there that do need that,   if that's the case they won't want to be playing a McQuaid game. :D


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at March 27, 2015 12:30 PM PDT
    • 63 posts
    March 26, 2015 3:24 PM PDT

    I am not a fan of games where everyone is a hero right from the start. You should start out with the rags on your back, and a blank reputation. Your actions among the player base should create your reputation. If you know your encounters, and can tank some really tough fights that other people your level struggle with, that reputation should spread amongst the community. What made you a hero in EverQuest? I would answer with becoming exalted with the community that you played with. What made you a villain? Doing villainous things to fellow players.

    • 31 posts
    March 26, 2015 3:32 PM PDT

    Mainstream MMOs now might as well be single player games with a bunch of npcs running around

    • 105 posts
    March 26, 2015 3:33 PM PDT
    Gurt said:

    Well, first of all saving the King's life and surviving a plane crash are so different as to be ridiculous to compare.  Second, the problem isn't that NPCs comment about players doing heroic things, the problem is that a quest with such huge ramifications is given as a newbie quest.  It's honestly pretty cool to have NPCs talk about things you did and are doing, but this should be something that happens at later levels rather than early ones.

    My point is they would say "I wonder who is out to get the king," or "the king is pretty lucky," or "it's all politics." or " he has so many enemies" or "the same thing happened to king wenceslas," or "he always had bad security" or "it's all because he started that land war in asia," or "in my day people had more respect for the king," or any of dozens of other comments aimed at the guy who actually almost got killed.

     

    I don't mind them talking about things I did, but maybe after I'd done a few things that they might actually know who I was.

     

    I agree that the problem is giving such a consequential quest at low levels, but this is just one small example, the one I could remember because I heard it so many times it stuck in my head. There are dozens of other examples in ESO and even more examples in other games of heaping praise on characters to the point that I admittedly might be a bit sensitive to it. At later levels, yea totally, but I think praise like anything else should be earned.


    This post was edited by Kayd at March 27, 2015 1:08 PM PDT
    • 288 posts
    March 26, 2015 3:57 PM PDT

    The only things that should be praise-worthy in a game, from the NPC denizens of the GAME itself, is the sort of event that requires the entire server to get behind it.  I don't have many good things to say about WoW, but one of the things I think I'd like to see more of, is the Ahn'Qiraj opening event.  

     

    It required the entire server to come together under a common cause, both good and evil (horde and alliance).  And especially in PVP environments, it's very good to have a reason for people to work together, even when they otherwise may never want to.


    This post was edited by Rallyd at March 26, 2015 4:58 PM PDT
    • 383 posts
    March 26, 2015 9:02 PM PDT

    Yes, I'm not a huge fan of being the hero. That's one thing I liked about EQ, you were just a fragile mortal getting your ass handed to you by large rats and bees. You proved your worth by actually putting in the work and being good at your class in the groups that you were apart of.

     

    This in turn paid off as some people never had to worry about finding groups and others had troubles. Some people were known to be good healers, tanks, CC, dps and others had a so so reputation. I know I was known for playing too many hours and falling asleep while healing on my cleric at 4-5am lol... The next day people would be like... man you're awesome... until you fall asleep lol... Man those were some good times.

    • 1434 posts
    March 26, 2015 10:03 PM PDT

    I can't say I don't like this type of interaction with the world, I just think it would make more sense if it wasn't just something you know every single player in the game has done.

     

    Thats the real problem with the modern mmorpg and this is just another manifestation of it.  Its the unwarranted praise which leads to a false sense of accomplishment.  From the get-go games are trying to make every player feel like they're already special instead of working to better yourself and eventually become someone worthy of commendation.  This same philosophy of false-entitlement spills over into all aspects and mechanics of the modern mmorpg.  Its really no wonder these games die out after a few months, you are already the hero and you've only completed one quest.  Mission accomplished, I can uninstall.

     

     

    • 9115 posts
    March 26, 2015 10:13 PM PDT

    I think this is why I like some of the better survival games, you literally start with the shirt on your back and not much else and you either survive or die and along the way you are faced with some pretty tough decisions, sometimes killing another player to survive is needed but can make you question yourself and leave you with a guilty feeling afterwards.

     

    I do not like to be handed anything in any game, I am of the mindset that if you give me the bare essentials and let me run free in your incredible world filled with things for me to do, see and experience, I will be happy and invest time into my character to progress them, sharpen their skills and advance their knowledge and experience.


    Anything I get handed for free is just less time I will be interested in it due to the lack of satisfaction for earning it myself and if it's too easy to earn, it will mean nothing at all, I want to feel challenged and have a very satisfying feeling of accomplishment once I complete something like a big quest or epic journey to get the best weapon or armour piece in the lands, I want to know others have failed trying and that my skill and determination was key to accomplishing this challenge.

     

    I don't want to finish the challenge, task, quest and walk into town and see 100 others wearing the same gear that may as well be handed out for free due to it being so meaningless.

    • 383 posts
    March 26, 2015 10:16 PM PDT
    Kilsin said:

    I think this is why I like some of the better survival games, you literally start with the shirt on your back and not much else and you either survive or die and along the way you are faced with some pretty tough decisions, sometimes killing another player to survive is needed but can make you question yourself and leave you with a guilty feeling afterwards.

     

    I do not like to be handed anything in any game, I am of the mindset that if you give me the bare essentials and let me run free in your incredible world filled with things for me to do, see and experience, I will be happy and invest time into my character to progress them, sharpen their skills and advance their knowledge and experience.


    Anything I get handed for free is just less time I will be interested in it due to the lack of satisfaction for earning it myself and if it's too easy to earn, it will mean nothing at all, I want to feel challenged and have a very satisfying feeling of accomplishment once I complete something like a big quest or epic journey to get the best weapon or armour piece in the lands, I want to know others have failed trying and that my skill and determination was key to accomplishing this challenge.

     

    I don't want to finish the challenge, task, quest and walk into town and see 100 others wearing the same gear that may as well be handed out for free due to it being so meaningless.

    Yep, I feel the same Kilsin. People want to be challenged even if they are bitching the whole time it's happening. That challenge is what keeps them attracted and what makes them throw their arms up cheering when that piece of armor drops and they won the roll. It all mattered... not just more loot to watch rot without a care in the world.

     

    • 1434 posts
    March 26, 2015 10:42 PM PDT
    Kilsin said:

    I think this is why I like some of the better survival games, you literally start with the shirt on your back and not much else and you either survive or die and along the way you are faced with some pretty tough decisions, sometimes killing another player to survive is needed but can make you question yourself and leave you with a guilty feeling afterwards.

     

    I do not like to be handed anything in any game, I am of the mindset that if you give me the bare essentials and let me run free in your incredible world filled with things for me to do, see and experience, I will be happy and invest time into my character to progress them, sharpen their skills and advance their knowledge and experience.


    Anything I get handed for free is just less time I will be interested in it due to the lack of satisfaction for earning it myself and if it's too easy to earn, it will mean nothing at all, I want to feel challenged and have a very satisfying feeling of accomplishment once I complete something like a big quest or epic journey to get the best weapon or armour piece in the lands, I want to know others have failed trying and that my skill and determination was key to accomplishing this challenge.

     

    I don't want to finish the challenge, task, quest and walk into town and see 100 others wearing the same gear that may as well be handed out for free due to it being so meaningless.

    Exactly.

     

    Survival games DO have this same element and I find it ironic that many of the same people who praise these games and their hardcore gameplay (dangerous world, death panalties, struggling to survive, downtime etc) will bash older generation MMORPGs for the exact same elements.

     

    Thats what EQ was.  It was the first online survival game, only set in a fantasy realm.  Survival, managing your resources and all of those little details were the components that together fashioned a believable virtual world.  Now those things are referred to in the mmorpg space as a grind or punishing, yet it created a need for other people and out of that shared adversity, communities were born.

    • 724 posts
    March 27, 2015 12:38 AM PDT

    Hmm, from a lore standpoint, aren't we (the players) all re-born heroes in Pantheon? Hopefully we really have to re-earn our reputation as such in the game :) On the topic of earning everything you have, I agree. For me the most enjoyable part of most games is the initial struggle, when you have to fight for everything and all things you get really have value due to that.

     

    • 163 posts
    March 27, 2015 6:25 AM PDT
    I never say 'no' if someone's wants to buy me an ale!
    • 1434 posts
    March 27, 2015 7:29 AM PDT
    Sarim said:

    Hmm, from a lore standpoint, aren't we (the players) all re-born heroes in Pantheon? Hopefully we really have to re-earn our reputation as such in the game :) On the topic of earning everything you have, I agree. For me the most enjoyable part of most games is the initial struggle, when you have to fight for everything and all things you get really have value due to that.

     

    Yes, the player is a once hero from another realm.

     

    "The player is a legendary Hero, stripped of his or her home world, along with their powerful relics and prestige, and left to explore the distinct and epic regions of Terminus, guided by the hope of reclaiming their power and forging their place in this burgeoning new world."

     

    Its not exactly the same thing because we're stripped of old powers, however its probably the only part of the backstory that I don't like.  Its just too close to the tired rpg cliche.  I'd rather just be a displaced soul from another world without further distinction.

    • 19 posts
    March 27, 2015 12:39 PM PDT
    Montreseur said:

    I am not a fan of games where everyone is a hero right from the start. You should start out with the rags on your back, and a blank reputation. Your actions among the player base should create your reputation. If you know your encounters, and can tank some really tough fights that other people your level struggle with, that reputation should spread amongst the community. What made you a hero in EverQuest? I would answer with becoming exalted with the community that you played with. What made you a villain? Doing villainous things to fellow players.

    God, yes. A thousand times this... I STILL to this day remember so many of the larger than life players on my EQ server (Vallon Zek). From super skilled PVPers, or mighty tanks/DPS what have you, to the villainous scum of rival guilds, or people everyone hated or was scared of. Your reputation and notoriety in that game grew organically based on deed and merit. It wasn't a bunch of NPCs regurgitating a script every 5 seconds because you had completed some quest that every other player did, it was actual players looking up to these guys and gals with flaming swords who were really legendary, or panicking when they saw a particular name on the /who list for the zone they were in. I cannot wait for this game and am so thrilled with the design and gameplay choices you guys have made thus far.

    • 3016 posts
    March 27, 2015 1:29 PM PDT
    Ephemeros said:

    Mainstream MMOs now might as well be single player games with a bunch of npcs running around

     

    I note that when I receive game invites by e-mail,  it seems they think that the way to entice new players, is to offer a Level 85 character fully equipped...as one example.  

    Why would I waste money on that?

    The very idea that a fully fleshed out, capped character is being offered,   seems to be sending a message...you will never have any challenge to try for ingame,  its all done for you.

    Wouldn't that set-up guarantee boredom?  At any rate,  invites like that get deleted. :)

     

    • 3016 posts
    March 27, 2015 1:38 PM PDT
    Rallyd said:

    The only things that should be praise-worthy in a game, from the NPC denizens of the GAME itself, is the sort of event that requires the entire server to get behind it.  I don't have many good things to say about WoW, but one of the things I think I'd like to see more of, is the Ahn'Qiraj opening event.  

     

    It required the entire server to come together under a common cause, both good and evil (horde and alliance).  And especially in PVP environments, it's very good to have a reason for people to work together, even when they otherwise may never want to.

     

    Or like the "Best of the Best" server events that EQ had back in the day.   I wonder if the VRI crew would consider having server events such as those...brings the community together I think :) And a little competition never hurt anyone. :)

    • 49 posts
    March 28, 2015 4:57 PM PDT
    As a poster above pointed out, Pantheon gave a sense of the player being a hero. That was my initial reason for not believing it would be my game.

    To be honest though, I don't really get into the lore so much. More about the world itself for me, the physical shape of it.

    If Pantheon takes this path I'll jettison lore as I have with WoW, enjoy the gameplay/world.
    • 201 posts
    March 30, 2015 6:30 AM PDT

    Isn't that the aim for every game though?  You don't play it to become a butler or homeless guy.  You want to become a hero.

     

    To the point of the topic, It's just what people are doing now, plus they basically want you to jump right into being a hero. 

    • 105 posts
    March 30, 2015 11:23 PM PDT

    Its really no wonder these games die out after a few months, you are already the hero and you've only completed one quest.  Mission accomplished, I can uninstall.

    I think that pretty much sums it up for me. What keeps you in the game is not what you already are, but what you hope to accomplish, the power you hope to attain, the items you can only dream of now. When a game makes the road to easy, doesn't make you work for things, then I starts to feel like it's all but done and then what's the point, I might as well uninstall.

    • 105 posts
    March 30, 2015 11:28 PM PDT
    Rivacom said:

    Isn't that the aim for every game though?  You don't play it to become a butler or homeless guy.  You want to become a hero.

     True, but I don't need the game to tell me. At least for me if the game has to tell me all the time how much of a hero I am for me to feel like a hero then I'm not much of a hero am I.