I really liked how in Vanguard when you landed a crit it opened a chain into 2-3 possible abilities.
This added a nice strategy of what chain to pick and when to pick it.
Although I felt that you crit'd too often in Vanguard.
With really high end gear maybe 15-20% crit rate should be the top end and crits should do no more than 150% damage.
These crit chains really had a lot of flavor and the noise when you opened the chain was great.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
If Brad says they are bringing chain skills back in Pantheon, well i may just start giggling like a schoolgirl.
VG rogue had the best chain skills
I loved the crit chain mechanics, and I was sort of assuming they'd be in Pantheon. I don't mind being limited to 8 abilities on my bar, but again, thats working on the assumption that some of those 8 abilities can chain into other abilities. After all, the crit abilities were usually in the same vein as the ability that triggered them. Perhaps many abilities will be capable of chaining into an advanced ability, but only those in your 1-3 slots on your bar will allow chains. So you not only choose your most important abilities in a given scenario, but you determine which 3 of those 8 you'd like to chain into a more powerful version of the same base ability.
I just don't want to be in a place like I was in VG again, where I used 20+ unique abilities in a single fight, but I think 8 spells/skills where a few can chain into other skills is a good number and will still promote strategic gameplay.
Also ++ on the crit chain rattle. Was such a welcome sound and hope to hear something like it again!
Zlambit said:
No thanks, crit chains just means you end up watching your bars for proc's instead of the the rest of the screen.
Crit chains had a very distinct sound as well as a visual so you knew it had proc'ed for use and then you only had a set time to use them.
You did not have to watch your bars for it to happen at all...
I would just listen for the great noise and it was like second nature.
This does not make combat more twitch it just adds more depth.
Global Cooldowns still apply to crit chains.
Kiz~
I much prefer original EQ to VG in almost all aspects; however, saying that, VG did make several improvements over EQ and classes were one of the largest.
I enjoyed crit chains in VG, and they most definitely did not border on twitch combat, or make me stare at my hotbars. If anything, it would be more similar to having to pay attention as a large melee class in EQ and throw a Bash/Slam when you heard the sound of a wizard mob casting a spell with hands that were glowing and moving.
As Dullahan said, having the different options available in the crit chains added another dimension of strategy to the class; however, I do think that the crits or the chains needed to occur less to avoid being overpowered. Perhaps at a 5% chance to activate chain after successful crit or something to that effect.
I don't want button mashing either, but I don't mind chaining skills if implemented similar to VG, with the appropriate audio effect to avoid having to stare at hotbars.
Raidan said:
I much prefer original EQ to VG in almost all aspects; however, saying that, VG did make several improvements over EQ and classes were one of the largest.
I enjoyed crit chains in VG, and they most definitely did not border on twitch combat, or make me stare at my hotbars. If anything, it would be more similar to having to pay attention as a large melee class in EQ and throw a Bash/Slam when you heard the sound of a wizard mob casting a spell with hands that were glowing and moving.
As Dullahan said, having the different options available in the crit chains added another dimension of strategy to the class; however, I do think that the crits or the chains needed to occur less to avoid being overpowered. Perhaps at a 5% chance to activate chain after successful crit or something to that effect.
I don't want button mashing either, but I don't mind chaining skills if implemented similar to VG, with the appropriate audio effect to avoid having to stare at hotbars.
What Raidan said ^^^
I have advocated as hard as anyone else for combat to be paced in a manner that is more strategic, less twitch - and allow for socialization amongst group members. I didn't play VG a ton, but I played it some - and I enjoyed the crit chain mechanic immensely. They were sort of addicting while not being overbearing.
Crit chains are like finding out they have your favorite candy in stock when you get to the concession stand at the movie theatre. You sort of hoped for it when you bought your ticket, it was in your mind as you were walking to the concession stand, and you had a bit of a "YEAH!" feeling when you saw it.
AND - it didn't lessen the amount of time you were able to talk to whoever you were in line with - so it enhanced your experience, rather than detracted from it.
Edit: One thing in the "nice but maybe not necessary" department - sometimes I play with the sound down (if I'm on my laptop in the livingroom and my wife is next to me watching TV for instance) - and some people who play are very likely hearing impaired... so it might be nice to have two different ways to signal something like a crit chain - first, the audible sound - second, some form of screen flash (maybe on the edges of the screen or whatever). Each of these being toggle options in the UI.
Sorry i disagree, to me its a twitch combat thing, sound or flashy light dont matter which, you always gotta focus/prep to make sure you dont miss a proc as mobs will need to be balanced around the people that wont miss their procs very often.
While i'd like some challenge i'd also like a chance to learn and beat a fight/mob, you can't "learn" a random crit chain, well atleast i havent in 15 years of mmo ^_^
Zlambit said:
Sorry i disagree, to me its a twitch combat thing, sound or flashy light dont matter which, you always gotta focus/prep to make sure you dont miss a proc as mobs will need to be balanced around the people that wont miss their procs very often.
While i'd like some challenge i'd also like a chance to learn and beat a fight/mob, you can't "learn" a random crit chain, well atleast i havent in 15 years of mmo ^_^
While I can respect your MMO experience, and I have similar - throwing out years of service doesn't automatically make someone's opinion be factual (mine either). I'm sure we'll disagree which is fine and why these boards exist, but I will clarify my side a bit.
As far as focusing on sound/sight/hotbars, etc., I would argue that it's no different than focusing on spell gems on a rotation, or pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 on a hotbar with global cooldowns (sight). Both situations in EQ require you to pay attention if you truly want to be a min/maxer. If you don't care, missing one or two hotkeys or delaying casting spells a few seconds after they reload shouldn't be an issue. It's no different than the crit chains, if you missed one or two if you're not trying to be a min/maxer, it shouldn't be a huge issue. If you are, then you'll be paying closer attention anyway. So, from this perspective, I would argue that your "focus" would be in attempt to be a min/maxer which is no different than EQ, not because it's twitch gameplay.
Now, if Crit Chains were caused by using a series of hotkeys in a set order within a set period of time and were absolutely necessary for DPS/group survivability then I would agree with your argument; which is why if they were implemented I would want them implemented as they were in VG.
And, I disagree with the class balance piece. Player skill can't be taken into account for mob difficulty. There are always going to be better/more skilled players than others and I most definitely would not want a game balancing to the lowest common denominator regardless of the system implemented, and, if you want a challenge, I don't think you do either. Crit Chains in no way affected my way of learning a mob or an encounter in VG, and if your grouped especially, the chains were more of a "bonus" than they were a game-breaking element.
TLDR: I want the difficulty of EQ, but I don't think crit chains if implemented appropriately would affect the difficulty.
Raidan said:
Zlambit said:
Sorry i disagree, to me its a twitch combat thing, sound or flashy light dont matter which, you always gotta focus/prep to make sure you dont miss a proc as mobs will need to be balanced around the people that wont miss their procs very often.
While i'd like some challenge i'd also like a chance to learn and beat a fight/mob, you can't "learn" a random crit chain, well atleast i havent in 15 years of mmo ^_^
While I can respect your MMO experience, and I have similar - throwing out years of service doesn't automatically make someone's opinion be factual (mine either). I'm sure we'll disagree which is fine and why these boards exist, but I will clarify my side a bit.
As far as focusing on sound/sight/hotbars, etc., I would argue that it's no different than focusing on spell gems on a rotation, or pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 on a hotbar with global cooldowns (sight). Both situations in EQ require you to pay attention if you truly want to be a min/maxer. If you don't care, missing one or two hotkeys or delaying casting spells a few seconds after they reload shouldn't be an issue. It's no different than the crit chains, if you missed one or two if you're not trying to be a min/maxer, it shouldn't be a huge issue. If you are, then you'll be paying closer attention anyway. So, from this perspective, I would argue that your "focus" would be in attempt to be a min/maxer which is no different than EQ, not because it's twitch gameplay.
Now, if Crit Chains were caused by using a series of hotkeys in a set order within a set period of time and were absolutely necessary for DPS/group survivability then I would agree with your argument; which is why if they were implemented I would want them implemented as they were in VG.
And, I disagree with the class balance piece. Player skill can't be taken into account for mob difficulty. There are always going to be better/more skilled players than others and I most definitely would not want a game balancing to the lowest common denominator regardless of the system implemented, and, if you want a challenge, I don't think you do either. Crit Chains in no way affected my way of learning a mob or an encounter in VG, and if your grouped especially, the chains were more of a "bonus" than they were a game-breaking element.
TLDR: I want the difficulty of EQ, but I don't think crit chains if implemented appropriately would affect the difficulty.
As long as resource management is a thing, and there is no food or water or easy way to quickly recover resources after battle, and that you CAN spam abilities in combat, but it would drain your resources quickly, then crit chains are fine. But if I need to use them every single fight, then they just turn into normal every fight actions and midas well just be plain old crits.
It's just that the entire point behind a "crit chain" is that your previous ability critically hit, thus enabling you to do more damage in a subsequent ability, I would prefer to not be using abilities in this manner unless I was burning through resources in an attempt to kill something before it killed me. I hope that if Pantheon has "crit chains" that it doesn't come at the expense of watering down the resource management strategy.
Another vote here in favor of crit chains. They felt immensely satisfying to use, and provided you were a little higher level added an element of on the fly decision making in terms of what I wanted to follow the crit up with. As a disciple I had options that ranged between damage, or debuffing, or healing etc. It was hardly "twitch" (in my opinion of course) combat but I really enjoyed the branching chain paths and having to make decisions mid fight.