Hail all,
I wanted to discuss how different classes at different levels learn abilities/spells. In most games, if not all, the way in which you learn a new ability/spell is to go to a trainer or scribe a drop and immediately you can begin using. I have always thought that this lacks a lot of depth if not common sense realism. To me the progression of ability/spell learning should follow a more logical and in depth progression; maybe something like this:
As you mature and grow in a profession you would interact with a trainer who would teach you the magic language or additional combat techniques to be able to learn and master new abilities/spells. Professions themselves are guilds by there very nature and would have an uncommon language that they have developed in order to keep the magical language or combat arts secret from others; only the worthy that have proven themselves would be bestowed the knowledge to progress within a given profession. Does it seem logical that an ability/spell scroll would drop or otherwise be found for a class that all classes could read and understand? No! Only a profession of magic can understand magic and visa versa. The means and methods for the trainer to teach you the language/arts in order for you to be able to understand, scribe, and use a new ability is not a topic for here because it could be done in so many ways, but it should be tied both to lore and profession as it develops.
Skill and ability are two separate things, the trainer will teach you the additional skill required (reading magic, combat art technique) to go into the world and learn the abilities/spells. This sounds like the approach the dev team is taking after listening to the second round table discussion. But additionally, if a scroll drops and you have not learned the additional skill to read it, why should you be able to? If an NPC can teach you a new ability but you lack the skill to learn, why should he think you are worthy to teach?
I feel that unless you have completed some type of training to develop the skill necessary to learn a new ability/spell, than in whatever way that new ability/spell is offered to you that you will not understand it; you might recognize it as being an ability for your profession, but you wouldn't be able to decipher completely what it does.
Often skill and ability in MMO's is worked together as one thing but just because you have the skill to cast a spell doesn't mean your going to cast it well every time, even if it is similar to other spells you cast. I think each and every ability/spell should have a (for lack of a better word) leveling mechanic that slightly increases your ability to effectively use/cast it. If I throw a hundred roundhouse kicks I am definitely going to be better and do more targeted damage with it than if I just learn how to do it. The trainer will teach me the overall "technique" for fighters and "Language" for casters to learn a new ability/spell, but only through practice would I have more ability skill to effectively use it.
Your thoughts?
I would like some kind of effort in order to get a spell. Rather it be by purchase or even having actual tasks to achieve higher level spells. Such as drops from a mob or a detailed camp effort(similar to parts of an epic). Even WoW had some effort and now it's just given to you.
I thought Guild Wars had (I guess have) a very interesting approach to this. Now, it's 9 years ago I played it, but as I recall, you can attain special spells by stealing them from certain bosses. It's an interesting mechanic as it allows a player to earn the spells/abilities through skills/dedication (killing a hard boss), rather than just a numbers game. It also gives the player another incentive to go back to previous zones.
One things to take into considerations is how this works over the course of a games life. If a Dungeon is really popular I can see how getting to kill Mob X to gain a spell works but what happens when people have moved on and getting people to that boss gets harder and harder. Dropped spells work out alright because some one could collect spells from a harder area and sell them to those that cant get there. If every cleric need to reach the end of the ice dungeon to get their next heal and no one else is doing that ice dungeon they are kind of SOL.
Xonth said:
One things to take into considerations is how this works over the course of a games life. If a Dungeon is really popular I can see how getting to kill Mob X to gain a spell works but what happens when people have moved on and getting people to that boss gets harder and harder. Dropped spells work out alright because some one could collect spells from a harder area and sell them to those that cant get there. If every cleric need to reach the end of the ice dungeon to get their next heal and no one else is doing that ice dungeon they are kind of SOL.
But if "that spell" doesn't drop on that boss anymore, but is now random somewhere else in the dungeon..? Or another Dungeon..?
So if they do that "ice dungeon" and never get the spell, because the last guy did it.. is ok with me.
Hieromonk said:
Xonth said:
One things to take into considerations is how this works over the course of a games life. If a Dungeon is really popular I can see how getting to kill Mob X to gain a spell works but what happens when people have moved on and getting people to that boss gets harder and harder. Dropped spells work out alright because some one could collect spells from a harder area and sell them to those that cant get there. If every cleric need to reach the end of the ice dungeon to get their next heal and no one else is doing that ice dungeon they are kind of SOL.
But if "that spell" doesn't drop on that boss anymore, but is now random somewhere else in the dungeon..? Or another Dungeon..?
So if they do that "ice dungeon" and never get the spell, because the last guy did it.. is ok with me.
This happened in EQ sometimes but it's what brought the social aspect to the game. IE: LF Group to help me with ice dungeon so I can get X spell. I would say 9/10 times you could russle up a crew, and one more reason to have a guild in your back pocket!
Xonth said:
One things to take into considerations is how this works over the course of a games life. If a Dungeon is really popular I can see how getting to kill Mob X to gain a spell works but what happens when people have moved on and getting people to that boss gets harder and harder. Dropped spells work out alright because some one could collect spells from a harder area and sell them to those that cant get there. If every cleric need to reach the end of the ice dungeon to get their next heal and no one else is doing that ice dungeon they are kind of SOL.
They aren't really SOL. They just need to be more socially creative to get their desired solution.
Edit: added quotation to place my statement in context.
Rivacom said:
Hieromonk said:
Xonth said:
One things to take into considerations is how this works over the course of a games life. If a Dungeon is really popular I can see how getting to kill Mob X to gain a spell works but what happens when people have moved on and getting people to that boss gets harder and harder. Dropped spells work out alright because some one could collect spells from a harder area and sell them to those that cant get there. If every cleric need to reach the end of the ice dungeon to get their next heal and no one else is doing that ice dungeon they are kind of SOL.
But if "that spell" doesn't drop on that boss anymore, but is now random somewhere else in the dungeon..? Or another Dungeon..?
So if they do that "ice dungeon" and never get the spell, because the last guy did it.. is ok with me.
This happened in EQ sometimes but it's what brought the social aspect to the game. IE: LF Group to help me with ice dungeon so I can get X spell. I would say 9/10 times you could russle up a crew, and one more reason to have a guild in your back pocket!
I am thinking like 2 or 3 years down the road when most people have moved on to higher things. Imagine if you needed a pet spell from the back of Befallen but no one ever was willing to go there let alone an entire group. At least if it was dropped It could be farmed by one or two people and sold on the market instead of no one getting it ever.
Rivacom said:
"I would like some kind of effort in order to get a spell. Rather it be by purchase or even having actual tasks to achieve higher level spells. Such as drops from a mob or a detailed camp effort(similar to parts of an epic). Even WoW had some effort and now it's just given to you."
I very much like the idea of spells or abilities being learned or dropped, However, I spent hundreds of runs in certain dungeons in EQ 1 where a certain UNRESISTABLE slow (disease based) never dropped....
So I am all for effort = reward (soap box) one of the greatest sins in MMORPG's is we have moved from that to the candy land model(off box). there has to be a happy medium.... where that 1 spell helps you make a noticeable jump forward but... the days of camping that dang ice bear for 96 strait hours.. needs to not happen as well.
Xan
Xonth said:
Rivacom said:
Hieromonk said:
Xonth said:
One things to take into considerations is how this works over the course of a games life. If a Dungeon is really popular I can see how getting to kill Mob X to gain a spell works but what happens when people have moved on and getting people to that boss gets harder and harder. Dropped spells work out alright because some one could collect spells from a harder area and sell them to those that cant get there. If every cleric need to reach the end of the ice dungeon to get their next heal and no one else is doing that ice dungeon they are kind of SOL.
But if "that spell" doesn't drop on that boss anymore, but is now random somewhere else in the dungeon..? Or another Dungeon..?
So if they do that "ice dungeon" and never get the spell, because the last guy did it.. is ok with me.
This happened in EQ sometimes but it's what brought the social aspect to the game. IE: LF Group to help me with ice dungeon so I can get X spell. I would say 9/10 times you could russle up a crew, and one more reason to have a guild in your back pocket!
I am thinking like 2 or 3 years down the road when most people have moved on to higher things. Imagine if you needed a pet spell from the back of Befallen but no one ever was willing to go there let alone an entire group. At least if it was dropped It could be farmed by one or two people and sold on the market instead of no one getting it ever.
Granted 16 years later I don't know the condition, but 2-3 years after release I was still finding players to help me venture where ever on alts.
I like the way the team is going (and sounds they are going) in terms of learning abilities. Constantly running back to the same hub to learn spells from the same guy at intermittent levels is old news and not very immersive (in my opinion). The profession masteries will have you travelling the world to find some old hermit in a cave that will teach you very specific spells and/or abilities. You will also learn of other skills by finding items in the world, and these items in turn may send you on a quest for its lost master to teach how to wield it.
It would be interesting if you had to find masters for all types of skills. Typically you would find one person to teach you all your combat stances, mana usage, physical skills, AND your class skills. It would be interesting if you had to find a master swordsman to teach you sword related combat techniques; a powerful wizard (or other magic-related master) to show you how to wield magic and use mana; a martial artist to teach you physical combat skills. (I'm speaking specifically of skills that anyone can learn, not the class related abilities.) Anyone can throw a sword around or kick someone, but if you truly want to hone a skill, you have to go to a master and learn how to master it yourself. These type of people don't have to be part of an epic quest (as with the mastery skills that you may have to find out in the world); they could just be in a hub. Maybe there is a specific race known for their martial abilities and you have to seek out the hub of that place in order to hone your skills further. Just some thoughts :)
It will be interesting to see where the team takes things! I can't wait!
Xonth said:
I am thinking like 2 or 3 years down the road when most people have moved on to higher things. Imagine if you needed a pet spell from the back of Befallen but no one ever was willing to go there let alone an entire group. At least if it was dropped It could be farmed by one or two people and sold on the market instead of no one getting it ever.
The problem you describe should provide the player with motivation to join a guild and recruit some friends to help. If the spell in question is really so weak that nobody wants to help; the solution is to increase the power of the spell rather than to make it easier to access. What say ye Xonth?
CelevinMoongleam said:
Xonth said:
I am thinking like 2 or 3 years down the road when most people have moved on to higher things. Imagine if you needed a pet spell from the back of Befallen but no one ever was willing to go there let alone an entire group. At least if it was dropped It could be farmed by one or two people and sold on the market instead of no one getting it ever.
The problem you describe should provide the player with motivation to join a guild and recruit some friends to help. If the spell in question is really so weak that nobody wants to help; the solution is to increase the power of the spell rather than to make it easier to access. What say ye Xonth?
And this is the point of a lot of other threads on this forum. If VR is aiming for the Niche game, The niche games are/were a lot more social and interactive then some of the modern MMO's now. EQ most of the time was about teaming up with other players. If you want to solo something, your going to get solo results. Not saying solo players can't exist, but I don't see a ton of reason to play solo. Usually the end game for a MMO is to get high end gear, defeat content, and have fun. Only way I see the experience being enjoyable is with a group of friends(ie: Guild).
Rivacom said:
"And this is the point of a lot of other threads on this forum. If VR is aiming for the Niche game, The niche games are/were a lot more social and interactive then some of the modern MMO's now. EQ most of the time was about teaming up with other players. If you want to solo something, your going to get solo results. Not saying solo players can't exist, but I don't see a ton of reason to play solo. Usually the end game for a MMO is to get high end gear, defeat content, and have fun. Only way I see the experience being enjoyable is with a group of friends(ie: Guild)."
I agree with you. The other thing the group mentality and the need for group mentality creates is a self policing environment. I cannot stand the stupidity, filth and immaturity that comes from trade chat and general chat in WoW. Gamer Ganksta wannabees. That didn't happen in the EQ Golden years and when it did it was one or two people who were ostracized because of it. It was to your betterment to be a good person and helpful to others. A MMO that is reliant on group play creates players reliant on others in their guild and beyond.
Xonth said:
One things to take into considerations is how this works over the course of a games life. If a Dungeon is really popular I can see how getting to kill Mob X to gain a spell works but what happens when people have moved on and getting people to that boss gets harder and harder. Dropped spells work out alright because some one could collect spells from a harder area and sell them to those that cant get there. If every cleric need to reach the end of the ice dungeon to get their next heal and no one else is doing that ice dungeon they are kind of SOL.
I think a better way to argue your point, and it happens to be mine as well, is talking about research spells in EQ. Basically if research components and the spells they created were only dropped off a dungeon boss, and were untradable, you would have almost nobody using those spells at the levels they get them, or ever probably.
Keep everything that can be tradable without breaking something, tradable. But as far as dungeon bosses teaching spells that can only be learned by defeating them, I'm really not sure that's a good idea, because as Xonth said down the road there will be fewer and fewer people doing low end dungeons, might be difficult to find people to help you out with that.
Maybe a secondary tutor system where, if you get a high level to tutor you he/she can teach you some of the abilities he/she has learned from the bosses throughout his/her travels, and over-time you can learn from him/her instead if you so choose? Say you meet the high level, they start your training and then it takes you 2-3 additional levels of experience to fully understand what they've taught you, and then you gain the ability. So there still would be an advantage to going and doing the dungeon yourself at the proper level, but if you so choose you can learn it from someone else, you'll just have to wait 2-3 more levels to have it.
Rallyd said:
"I think a better way to argue your point, and it happens to be mine as well, is talking about research spells in EQ. Basically if research components and the spells they created were only dropped off a dungeon boss, and were untradable, you would have almost nobody using those spells at the levels they get them, or ever probably.
Keep everything that can be tradable without breaking something, tradable. But as far as dungeon bosses teaching spells that can only be learned by defeating them, I'm really not sure that's a good idea, because as Xonth said down the road there will be fewer and fewer people doing low end dungeons, might be difficult to find people to help you out with that.
Maybe a secondary tutor system where, if you get a high level to tutor you he/she can teach you some of the abilities he/she has learned from the bosses throughout his/her travels, and over-time you can learn from him/her instead if you so choose? Say you meet the high level, they start your training and then it takes you 2-3 additional levels of experience to fully understand what they've taught you, and then you gain the ability. So there still would be an advantage to going and doing the dungeon yourself at the proper level, but if you so choose you can learn it from someone else, you'll just have to wait 2-3 more levels to have it."
I am not against a system like you suggest BUT if each lvl matters, gear matters and even raid content exist pre- max level were looking at a reason to be in low level dungeons more then just for a quick lvl grind in a few hours. If they make low lvl spells available in more then one zone or dungeon it shouldn't be an issue really. however, I am cool with whatever method as long as it's earned and the more powerful the ability or spell the more it should be invested and earned.
I could see ever class with a spell called (just an example) learn from the master and specific mobs/rares/boss's cast and use x ability and you must have your learn from the master ability activated.. maybe that's to laborious just an idea. I do like drops for spells and abilities as well.
xan
Rallyd said:
Xonth said:
One things to take into considerations is how this works over the course of a games life. If a Dungeon is really popular I can see how getting to kill Mob X to gain a spell works but what happens when people have moved on and getting people to that boss gets harder and harder. Dropped spells work out alright because some one could collect spells from a harder area and sell them to those that cant get there. If every cleric need to reach the end of the ice dungeon to get their next heal and no one else is doing that ice dungeon they are kind of SOL.
I think a better way to argue your point, and it happens to be mine as well, is talking about research spells in EQ. Basically if research components and the spells they created were only dropped off a dungeon boss, and were untradable, you would have almost nobody using those spells at the levels they get them, or ever probably.
Keep everything that can be tradable without breaking something, tradable. But as far as dungeon bosses teaching spells that can only be learned by defeating them, I'm really not sure that's a good idea, because as Xonth said down the road there will be fewer and fewer people doing low end dungeons, might be difficult to find people to help you out with that.
Maybe a secondary tutor system where, if you get a high level to tutor you he/she can teach you some of the abilities he/she has learned from the bosses throughout his/her travels, and over-time you can learn from him/her instead if you so choose? Say you meet the high level, they start your training and then it takes you 2-3 additional levels of experience to fully understand what they've taught you, and then you gain the ability. So there still would be an advantage to going and doing the dungeon yourself at the proper level, but if you so choose you can learn it from someone else, you'll just have to wait 2-3 more levels to have it.
I'd be interested in something like the tutor system, but with restrictions. It could probably work out and create one more "service" to drive the community.
I think in the grand scheme of things. Finding spells and what not is what will help drive the community. If I'm a healer, and we keep dieing on X, my guild should say, man if we had spell x, we'd be much better off. So as a guild or group, I'm going to go with this user and help him get spell x, y , z. To me this is key to the social community.
I agree and disagree with some of the ideas in this thread. I do think at early levels there should be class trainers that can be found in different cities. I also think that as you level up there should be some difficulty in obtaining certain spells especially the most significant. I really don't feel like raid acquired spells should have to be obtained until the high levels but I see no issue with putting in spells at the earlier levels that require you to camp a certain spawn or a quest that sends you around the world doing numerous tasks and speaking to different NPCs. I would like to see a good mix on obtaining spells. I do feel like the basic spells should be on a class trainer tho.
Xaleban said:
I agree and disagree with some of the ideas in this thread. I do think at early levels there should be class trainers that can be found in different cities. I also think that as you level up there should be some difficulty in obtaining certain spells especially the most significant. I really don't feel like raid acquired spells should have to be obtained until the high levels but I see no issue with putting in spells at the earlier levels that require you to camp a certain spawn or a quest that sends you around the world doing numerous tasks and speaking to different NPCs. I would like to see a good mix on obtaining spells. I do feel like the basic spells should be on a class trainer tho.
I don't think anyone is saying no to trainers, I think the talk for dropped or taught spells pertains to mostly high level or rare spells that maybe would have some difficulty to get.
What I always thought would be cool is for trainers to give new spells and abilities as rewards for completing quests that show you can use your current abilities in strategic ways. For example, as a monk you get a quest to use feign death to pull single mobs from a group and kill them, when you prove you can do that a bunch of times you get a new monk ability. Or you get a quest to use charm to make one mob kill another and if you do it a dozen times you get a new spell. Or, a quest for a character to hold agro while someone else does most of the damage. The idea is to make trainers teach tactics and techniques as well as abilities. It would require the game system to track what abilities and spells are being used in combat which may be unrealistic, but it would be interesting if it could be done.
I like the idea of having some of the spells and abilities be rare drops off mobs though out the levels.
A great example of this I'll pull from EQ1 Kunark era... The spell Torpor for shamans was extremely
valuable and changed the way shammy played.. it had great synergy with Canni and was a huge power
shift when you got it. (although it could only be cast on group members)
Stuff like this except way more please... this will create character diversity just based on who has what
moves.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
Rivacom said:
Not sure that would work too well as there aren't suppose to be very many quests... being a non quest driven game.
I understand, I was just trying to figure out how to make them more like actual trainers and less like vendors. A trainer would actually try to train you to use spells not just give them to you and hope you know how to use them :)
Kaydis said:
Rivacom said:
Not sure that would work too well as there aren't suppose to be very many quests... being a non quest driven game.
I understand, I was just trying to figure out how to make them more like actual trainers and less like vendors. A trainer would actually try to train you to use spells not just give them to you and hope you know how to use them :)
I completely understand. I was also trying to think for ways that they could basically "tutor" you without making it... go pick up this object, turn it in or pay 5 gold.
Xanier said:
Rivacom said:
"And this is the point of a lot of other threads on this forum. If VR is aiming for the Niche game, The niche games are/were a lot more social and interactive then some of the modern MMO's now. EQ most of the time was about teaming up with other players. If you want to solo something, your going to get solo results. Not saying solo players can't exist, but I don't see a ton of reason to play solo. Usually the end game for a MMO is to get high end gear, defeat content, and have fun. Only way I see the experience being enjoyable is with a group of friends(ie: Guild)."
I agree with you. The other thing the group mentality and the need for group mentality creates is a self policing environment. I cannot stand the stupidity, filth and immaturity that comes from trade chat and general chat in WoW. Gamer Ganksta wannabees. That didn't happen in the EQ Golden years and when it did it was one or two people who were ostracized because of it. It was to your betterment to be a good person and helpful to others. A MMO that is reliant on group play creates players reliant on others in their guild and beyond.
Yes, those were the good years. your reputation were everything back then. it is missed for sure. With good reputation comes "good" behavior, which is for me in today's world, is severally lacking as no one takes responsibility for anything, even their own actions..
Vel.