I guess my definition of a strong class identity is different then what is being talked about here. Rift had such horrible class systems because you could switch between different play styles all the time meaning your class really had no identity. I am not saying I’m overly disappointed in how this is all playing out but it’s definitely not what I imagined after so much talk about keeping classes identity being “strong”.
I just really hoping to avoid situations where you want to play a healing focused cleric and your group said they want you to be the other type. Which was in the top few reasons I quit Rift. Guess we will have to see. We will see if you start to see guilds saying things like, “only excepting applications from healing focused clerics”.
To be honest I was really hoping for no bells or whistles on the class system as that is usually where most of my issues with games come from.
Also as someone mentioned before it seems kind of off that we are trying to make it take as long as possible to get to max level but your class won’t be fully fleshed out till the max level. Am I reading this wrong but you won’t be that shield cleric till you hit max level?
Joppa said:
Hey everyone - I just made this post over on MMORPG.com in light of similar questions/concerns being asked there. Hopefully this helps to clarify things a bit:
"This is a somewhat complicated system to describe and I'm not surprised it has raised some questions (and ultimately I'm glad it has, I'm excited to see discussion about Pantheon's classes picking up across the various communities).
But I want to clarify this concern: one of the main goals of this system is to preserve Class Identity and to bring back clearly defined Class Roles. So Dullahan, what you took from the round table is definitely not what we intend, though listening back I can see where it could come across that way.
Let me address a few things specifically:
1) There are only two paths available to each Core Class and neither of those paths deviate from the Class' core role. In the case of the Cleric, both the Devout and Resolute Mastery produce a Primary Healer, and just like in EQ1, Pantheon's Cleric (either Devout or Resolute) will be the only class that can fulfill the Primary Healer role, especially later in the game. The difference is in the play style, the appearance and the tertiary utility abilities (like the Pillar Shields, for example, vs. the Tomes for Devout Cleric, which I didn't even get into!).
2) Defining 'on-the-fly': Once the Mastery paths have been unlocked, Mastery is developed and maintained purely through rare equipment and abilities that will be difficult to find and acquire. But yes, both mastery lines will be open to the player to develop. So, it is feasible for someone to slowly (we will make sure it is slowly) piece together a full set of equipment and abilities to fill-out both Mastery lines. However, while you have access to both, switching from one to the other will not be an instantaneous event by any means.
Remember, we love downtime and we love strategy - ideally, we love when downtime and strategy work together.
So let's use the example I used in the podcast. You play a Cleric and a year or two into Pantheon, you've acquired full Mastery gear and abilities for the Devout and Resolute paths. Let's say you are in a full group moving through a dungeon with your Devout Mastery active (Devout gear on, using your Devout abilities and play style). Then you come to those 3 corridors. Thankfully you have a skilled Enchanter with you, but you know you're going to have to take on your Resolute Mastery so you can block off one of those corridors.
How quickly does this happen? Well, first you have to take off all of your Devout gear and replace it with your Resolute gear. We don't want to make exchanging armor tedious, so that's not what's going to take time. What will take time is that by doing this, you effectively wipe your current mana pool completely. As you equip your Resolute gear, you will begin regenerating new mana, as your core White mana merges with the Grey mana of the Resolute gear.
You also have to memorize an entirely new set of abilities (a la EQ 1). The point is, meaningful and strategic downtime is being designed into this system to keep it from ever being 'on-the-fly'. And if we have to take additional measures, we absolutely will.
3) The overall premise of this system is that as you master what it means to be a Cleric, you are not becoming something new when you specialize. That's why I lean more towards calling it a system of Mastery, because you are essentially mastering the full expression of the Cleric class and are able to embody those expressions at will (though, not on the fly ;) )"
I really appreciate all of the feedback so far guys - I hope these clarifications are helpful!
The bold and underlined portion are the parts I'm concerned about the most, if you say you need to regenerate a new pool of mana, even if that were to be as slow as Everquest, which it is likely not to be... maximum of 10 minutes downtime to switch "stance".... that is still far and away shorter than anything I would be comfortable with.
On top of this, I think if you pick a "stance or specialization" you should not be able to pick the other one as well. You can still collect that gear and those spells, and down the road maybe do a "brutal respec quest" to change, but you should not be able to be both in the same dungeon within the same day IMO.
It also brings me concern that you feel Cleric is the only primary healer, if Everquest is any example.. druids and shamans get left to solo/duo by themselves because they can't "primary heal" for a group. I'm not saying they should be able to heal as good as a cleric, but they should be able to fill the role in a standard dungeon group situation. Granted the group shouldn't be able to get crazy, because the limitations to druid/shaman healing are there.
Xonth said:
I guess my definition of a strong class identity is different then what is being talked about here. Rift had such horrible class systems because you could switch between different play styles all the time meaning your class really had no identity. I am not saying I’m overly disappointed in how this is all playing out but it’s definitely not what I imagined after so much talk about keeping classes identity being “strong”.
I just really hoping to avoid situations where you want to play a healing focused cleric and your group said they want you to be the other type. Which was in the top few reasons I quit Rift. Guess we will have to see. We will see if you start to see guilds saying things like, “only excepting applications from healing focused clerics”.
To be honest I was really hoping for no bells or whistles on the class system as that is usually where most of my issues with games come from.
Also as someone mentioned before it seems kind of off that we are trying to make it take as long as possible to get to max level but your class won’t be fully fleshed out till the max level. Am I reading this wrong but you won’t be that shield cleric till you hit max level?
I think you missed some of it.
Once you reach the Path of Mastery, your Character should have acquired some of the core elements for their Class. And since each Player is different and has a different story... then they have different strength & weaknesses of abilities... different, but the same. (I love the idea of this new Organic Skill Tree).
What that means is, if you are looking for a Cleric, then you'll have one.
Mastery comes into play, when you are deep down in a Crawl and re-grouping after a mini-boss... and Players are buffing up, meding, re-summoning pets, etc.. and THAT Resolute Cleric will be outfitting his next role. He might use twice the mana to cast the spell your top Group healer uses all the time, but He can also off-tank and put down some Positional Crowd Control...
There is no "other type"... just Clerics that know more than other clerics...
Let me address a few things specifically:
1) There are only two paths available to each Core Class and neither of those paths deviate from the Class' core role. In the case of the Cleric, both the Devout and Resolute Mastery produce a Primary Healer, and just like in EQ1, Pantheon's Cleric (either Devout or Resolute) will be the only class that can fulfill the Primary Healer role, especially later in the game. The difference is in the play style, the appearance and the tertiary utility abilities (like the Pillar Shields, for example, vs. the Tomes for Devout Cleric, which I didn't even get into!).
Joppa, I know its still early in the dev cycle but could you please expound on the bolded part. Where do Druids and Shammys fit in to the healing scheme? Can they single group heal but really you need a cleric on Raids?
cleric being the only class that can be a primary healer is making me make a sad face :( i love healing the group, but the cleric doesnt sound like its for me.
also if you need to find your skills as drops, and you need to find gear to use those skills, then why is there a dungeon where the ONLY choice is having the resolute cleric block the hole? what if our healer doesnt have the resolute skillset yet? we are just SOL? are the dungeons being formulated so that only one group, with one specific makeup can beat it?
I really like the system a lot, especially the mana/energy colours now that Brad and Chris have both explained it so well to me but I too have my concerns around two area's of this system, switching between roles (I prefer picking 1 mastery and sticking with it) and the Cleric class being the only pure healer (I love my Shaman!). I really want to see it in action first before I make my mind up though, we can (as we always say) change it during Alpha if it doesn't work...this is what we have Alpha for, testing mechanics and features and then once we are all happy, we push Beta out to stress test and bug test with balances.
So as Convo suggested, we should really wait and see. Let the team flesh it out and get it working well and then when you all jump in for Alpha testing we can play with it and give proper feedback from actually experiencing it in game. ;)
Sevens said:
I dont mind the switching...if the gear and skills are going to be as hard to get as they are saying then someone who has mastered both paths will be rare indeed
Yeah hearing Chris explain the downtime in switching gear and resetting the mana pool put my mind at ease a bit but I still see a "Mastery" as something you spend your life studying/learning/mastering, not something you just go "oh my life long mastery skill isn't best suited to this area, give me a minute while I change to my other lifetime mastery skill that is better suited" lol. ;)
Using Martial Arts as an example, you don't see a master Karate sensei switching clothes and changing to Jiu Jitsu halfway through a tournament to get the jump on their opponents, they spend their lives devoted to one type of Martial Arts and being the absolute best they can possibly be in that form, some forms/types can be a hybrid or mix of others blended in but it is still the decision to follow that path and only that path. I think that decision is important too, it makes players think about their choices and decisions, making the wrong one can cost you a lot of time and experience to undo it!
It's like the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none". It implies that you cannot be the best (Master) at something if you spend time training in other forms, that time could be spent bettering yourself and learning the original/main form to make you even better or in this case, a Master.
VG handled this well too with Cleric Affinities, pick one out of the six that best suits your playstyle and that is the path you have chosen and must follow, if you want to change it, you should have to prove yourself worthy and follow a series of tasks/quests etc. and lose those abilities as a result, to gain the new ones.
This is all my opinion though, I still want to wait and see how it works in a group situation and I am mainly looking to see if it takes away from other classes and their roles but I may be completely wrong and worrying for no reason, we will have to wait and see :)
Convo said:
Putting a simple view on this, at least what I'm expecting to see...I'd imagine the healers being similar to EQ. Where cleric was top dog but other classes could hold thier own. Does anyone think a class should be a better healer than a Devoilt Cleric? If so, I'm just curious to hear what classes? I'd imagine some classes will come close to it but never fully surpass it's healing ability. I'd imagine those classes would bring other things to the table, dps, cc, etc.
Personally I liked the way VG handled this with different healers being better at different roles, like:
Cleric was pure healer with biggest single target heal and invulns for self and others (awesome for groups/raids and keeping tank up)
Shaman was best group healer and could regen mana by sacrificing health (great for long fights that were tough on mana)
Bloodmage best Dps healer (really fun class that played a massive balancing game with their life and the other group members, able to disperse damage to everyone)
Disciple best melee/group/self healer/soloer
Druids had some nice healing utility with rain and a couple of others that if specced right, could be valuable off healers.
I really hope we see something similar with that type of healer balance and variety, plus with each having a Mastery path to choose from, I think the possibilities are going to be really fun and exciting.
Sevens said:
I dont mind the switching...if the gear and skills are going to be as hard to get as they are saying then someone who has mastered both paths will be rare indeed
I don't mind it either. The switching (and being able to end up mastering both paths), is a good idea imo. I see it as giving players more content. Like you said, as long as it is as hard as the devs are saying, it will be a good thing. Being able to master both paths will give you twice as much to do.
Looking at the alternative, if you were forced to choose only one path for your character, once you mastered that path, that would be it. You'd be done with that aspect of the game. And you would never need to experience all of the content from the other path. Even if they had the option to respec, once someone spends all this time mastering a single path, very few people would want to switch (especially if the paths are well balanced).
That's just how I look at it. Not locked into a single path = more content for the player. Kind of like in EQ1, where if you spent enough time, you could end up getting all of the AA's.
Kilsin said:
Sevens said:
I dont mind the switching...if the gear and skills are going to be as hard to get as they are saying then someone who has mastered both paths will be rare indeed
Yeah hearing Chris explain the downtime in switching gear and resetting the mana pool put my mind at ease a bit but I still see a "Mastery" as something you spend your life studying/learning/mastering, not something you just go "oh my life long mastery skill isn't best suited to this area, give me a minute while I change to my other lifetime mastery skill that is better suited" lol. ;)
Using Martial Arts as an example, you don't see a master Karate sensei switching clothes and changing to Jiu Jitsu halfway through a tournament to get the jump on their opponents, they spend their lives devoted to one type of Martial Arts and being the absolute best they can possibly be in that form, some forms/types can be a hybrid or mix of others blended in but it is still the decision to follow that path and only that path. I think that decision is important too, it makes players think about their choices and decisions, making the wrong one can cost you a lot of time and experience to undo it!
It's like the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none". It implies that you cannot be the best (Master) at something if you spend time training in other forms, that time could be spent bettering yourself and learning the original/main form to make you even better or in this case, a Master.
VG handled this well too with Cleric Affinities, pick one out of the six that best suits your playstyle and that is the path you have chosen and must follow, if you want to change it, you should have to prove yourself worthy and follow a series of tasks/quests etc. and lose those abilities as a result, to gain the new ones.
This is all my opinion though, I still want to wait and see how it works in a group situation and I am mainly looking to see if it takes away from other classes and their roles but I may be completely wrong and worrying for no reason, we will have to wait and see :)
Using your martial arts example...
Todays MMA fighters all usually have 9th degree black belts in several different styles
Jiu Jitsu (On the mat locks hold etc)
Akido (using opponents momentum against them)
Kenpo (Strikes punches elbows)
They are masters in all of the styles and use them all as the need arises
As I see the Devout and Resolute cleric doing
And to be honest...as a player who mains a cleric mostly I really see no desire to chase after the Resolute style cleric
I dont want to ever "off Tank" or Dps to heal
I want to sit in the back and work my magic to keep everyone alive
and to Rock a Kilt!!
Sevens said:
Kilsin said:
Sevens said:
I dont mind the switching...if the gear and skills are going to be as hard to get as they are saying then someone who has mastered both paths will be rare indeed
Yeah hearing Chris explain the downtime in switching gear and resetting the mana pool put my mind at ease a bit but I still see a "Mastery" as something you spend your life studying/learning/mastering, not something you just go "oh my life long mastery skill isn't best suited to this area, give me a minute while I change to my other lifetime mastery skill that is better suited" lol. ;)
Using Martial Arts as an example, you don't see a master Karate sensei switching clothes and changing to Jiu Jitsu halfway through a tournament to get the jump on their opponents, they spend their lives devoted to one type of Martial Arts and being the absolute best they can possibly be in that form, some forms/types can be a hybrid or mix of others blended in but it is still the decision to follow that path and only that path. I think that decision is important too, it makes players think about their choices and decisions, making the wrong one can cost you a lot of time and experience to undo it!
It's like the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none". It implies that you cannot be the best (Master) at something if you spend time training in other forms, that time could be spent bettering yourself and learning the original/main form to make you even better or in this case, a Master.
VG handled this well too with Cleric Affinities, pick one out of the six that best suits your playstyle and that is the path you have chosen and must follow, if you want to change it, you should have to prove yourself worthy and follow a series of tasks/quests etc. and lose those abilities as a result, to gain the new ones.
This is all my opinion though, I still want to wait and see how it works in a group situation and I am mainly looking to see if it takes away from other classes and their roles but I may be completely wrong and worrying for no reason, we will have to wait and see :)
Using your martial arts example...
Todays MMA fighters all usually have 9th degree black belts in several different styles
Jiu Jitsu (On the mat locks hold etc)
Akido (using opponents momentum against them)
Kenpo (Strikes punches elbows)
They are masters in all of the styles and use them all as the need arises
As I see the Devout and Resolute cleric doing
And to be honest...as a player who mains a cleric mostly I really see no desire to chase after the Resolute style cleric
I dont want to ever "off Tank" or Dps to heal
I want to sit in the back and work my magic to keep everyone alive
and to Rock a Kilt!!
You will find most MMA/UFC fighters have a preferred style that they are best in (maybe a master in) and have good experience in many others styles to give them options against different fighters who specialise in other styles but they can have all the belts they like, if they train in another style, it is taking away from being even better at their main style, if that makes sense?
It's getting late (1am) and I know what I want to say but my brain isn't letting me say it! lol
Kilsin said:
Sevens said:
Kilsin said:
Sevens said:
I dont mind the switching...if the gear and skills are going to be as hard to get as they are saying then someone who has mastered both paths will be rare indeed
Yeah hearing Chris explain the downtime in switching gear and resetting the mana pool put my mind at ease a bit but I still see a "Mastery" as something you spend your life studying/learning/mastering, not something you just go "oh my life long mastery skill isn't best suited to this area, give me a minute while I change to my other lifetime mastery skill that is better suited" lol. ;)
Using Martial Arts as an example, you don't see a master Karate sensei switching clothes and changing to Jiu Jitsu halfway through a tournament to get the jump on their opponents, they spend their lives devoted to one type of Martial Arts and being the absolute best they can possibly be in that form, some forms/types can be a hybrid or mix of others blended in but it is still the decision to follow that path and only that path. I think that decision is important too, it makes players think about their choices and decisions, making the wrong one can cost you a lot of time and experience to undo it!
It's like the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none". It implies that you cannot be the best (Master) at something if you spend time training in other forms, that time could be spent bettering yourself and learning the original/main form to make you even better or in this case, a Master.
VG handled this well too with Cleric Affinities, pick one out of the six that best suits your playstyle and that is the path you have chosen and must follow, if you want to change it, you should have to prove yourself worthy and follow a series of tasks/quests etc. and lose those abilities as a result, to gain the new ones.
This is all my opinion though, I still want to wait and see how it works in a group situation and I am mainly looking to see if it takes away from other classes and their roles but I may be completely wrong and worrying for no reason, we will have to wait and see :)
Using your martial arts example...
Todays MMA fighters all usually have 9th degree black belts in several different styles
Jiu Jitsu (On the mat locks hold etc)
Akido (using opponents momentum against them)
Kenpo (Strikes punches elbows)
They are masters in all of the styles and use them all as the need arises
As I see the Devout and Resolute cleric doing
And to be honest...as a player who mains a cleric mostly I really see no desire to chase after the Resolute style cleric
I dont want to ever "off Tank" or Dps to heal
I want to sit in the back and work my magic to keep everyone alive
and to Rock a Kilt!!
You will find most MMA/UFC fighters have a preferred style that they are best in (maybe a master in) and have good experience in many others styles to give them options against different fighters who specialise in other styles but they can have all the belts they like, if they train in another style, it is taking away from being even better at their main style, if that makes sense?
It's getting late (1am) and I know what I want to say but my brain isn't letting me say it! lol
I do understand what you are trying to say, I am personally just trying to view this info in the best possible light until we have more concrete information
Sevens said:
Kilsin said:
Sevens said:
Kilsin said:
Sevens said:
I dont mind the switching...if the gear and skills are going to be as hard to get as they are saying then someone who has mastered both paths will be rare indeed
Yeah hearing Chris explain the downtime in switching gear and resetting the mana pool put my mind at ease a bit but I still see a "Mastery" as something you spend your life studying/learning/mastering, not something you just go "oh my life long mastery skill isn't best suited to this area, give me a minute while I change to my other lifetime mastery skill that is better suited" lol. ;)
Using Martial Arts as an example, you don't see a master Karate sensei switching clothes and changing to Jiu Jitsu halfway through a tournament to get the jump on their opponents, they spend their lives devoted to one type of Martial Arts and being the absolute best they can possibly be in that form, some forms/types can be a hybrid or mix of others blended in but it is still the decision to follow that path and only that path. I think that decision is important too, it makes players think about their choices and decisions, making the wrong one can cost you a lot of time and experience to undo it!
It's like the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none". It implies that you cannot be the best (Master) at something if you spend time training in other forms, that time could be spent bettering yourself and learning the original/main form to make you even better or in this case, a Master.
VG handled this well too with Cleric Affinities, pick one out of the six that best suits your playstyle and that is the path you have chosen and must follow, if you want to change it, you should have to prove yourself worthy and follow a series of tasks/quests etc. and lose those abilities as a result, to gain the new ones.
This is all my opinion though, I still want to wait and see how it works in a group situation and I am mainly looking to see if it takes away from other classes and their roles but I may be completely wrong and worrying for no reason, we will have to wait and see :)
Using your martial arts example...
Todays MMA fighters all usually have 9th degree black belts in several different styles
Jiu Jitsu (On the mat locks hold etc)
Akido (using opponents momentum against them)
Kenpo (Strikes punches elbows)
They are masters in all of the styles and use them all as the need arises
As I see the Devout and Resolute cleric doing
And to be honest...as a player who mains a cleric mostly I really see no desire to chase after the Resolute style cleric
I dont want to ever "off Tank" or Dps to heal
I want to sit in the back and work my magic to keep everyone alive
and to Rock a Kilt!!
You will find most MMA/UFC fighters have a preferred style that they are best in (maybe a master in) and have good experience in many others styles to give them options against different fighters who specialise in other styles but they can have all the belts they like, if they train in another style, it is taking away from being even better at their main style, if that makes sense?
It's getting late (1am) and I know what I want to say but my brain isn't letting me say it! lolI do understand what you are trying to say, I am personally just trying to view this info in the best possible light until we have more concrete information
Yeah absolutely mate, I am too, I can't wait to test it out with you guy's ;)
These are my personal opinions too, I could be completely wrong or the minority but I do know that whatever Chris/Brad and the team do, it will be good and if it's not, they will adjust it accordingly during Alpha/Beta.
Kilsin said:
"oh my life long mastery skill isn't best suited to this area, give me a minute while I change to my other lifetime mastery skill that is better suited" lol. ;)
Similar to Kilsin's thoughts here, I'm dubious of the system as a whole much like the Rights of Passage System, but, I appreciate the attempt at creativity and uniqueness, and will be curious to see how it tests in Alpha/Beta. I'll share a few thoughts/ideas that I had when listening to the podcast.
One part of the system that I couldn't overlook is how mastery is changed by swapping rare gear. As Kilsin stated, mastery takes a lifetime, and if one truly became a master, you wouldn't lose those skills by swapping gear. I realize you stated you also have to learn various skills/spell-sets of both to swap specializations, but, a person wouldn't lose their skills because they were wearing plate or cloth, but they might not be as adept at them. If anything here, I would prefer more of a VG style at that point of stances where if you were a Bloodmage you could swap between Sanguine Focus (Better Heals) and Focus of Gelenia (Better Damage). And, perhaps wearing plate would make you a 50% less adept at healing and cloth would give you 50% less shields due to your movements being restricted by plate, etc.
But, I think an easier solution would be to keep all the same system design, content, ideas, etc. with specializations/skills/spells taking a long time to obtain, with the exception of not having a gear swap to change a stance. Let the player have access to all the skills/spells, etc. but a limited number of options like EQ (8 total), and have gear itemized where plate armor gives better stats towards a Resolute Stance (Maybe AC/Hps/Sta focused versus wisdom/mana) and cloth toward healing (Wisdom/Mana focused) and I believe the system would take care of itself without having to implement a gear-swap.
The swapping of the specializations "on-the-fly" seems gimmicky as an attempt to be unique; although, it's truly not all that different from VG stances with the exeception of the gear/skill requirement to change specializations being earned versus innate (thrugh trainer) in VG.
Wellspring said:
That's just how I look at it. Not locked into a single path = more content for the player. Kind of like in EQ1, where if you spent enough time, you could end up getting all of the AA's.
I see your point here and I would love an EQesque AA system that would be implemented into Pantheon. But, the way I would view Pantheon's system currently, and its obviously extremely early, is it truly means alternate advancement; whereas, EQ was more of a continued advancement to improve what your character was already good at - more like a continued mastery of the base class.
However, Pantheon would have a base class with divergent (alternate) paths of mastery. With that said, I agree with you on more content being a good thing and I still prefer some form of character improvement being available at max level to give something to do.
Raidan said:
Kilsin said:
"oh my life long mastery skill isn't best suited to this area, give me a minute while I change to my other lifetime mastery skill that is better suited" lol. ;)
Similar to Kilsin's thoughts here, I'm dubious of the system as a whole much like the Rights of Passage System, but, I appreciate the attempt at creativity and uniqueness, and will be curious to see how it tests in Alpha/Beta. I'll share a few thoughts/ideas that I had when listening to the podcast.
One part of the system that I couldn't overlook is how mastery is changed by swapping rare gear. As Kilsin stated, mastery takes a lifetime, and if one truly became a master, you wouldn't lose those skills by swapping gear. I realize you stated you also have to learn various skills/spell-sets of both to swap specializations, but, a person wouldn't lose their skills because they were wearing plate or cloth, but they might not be as adept at them. If anything here, I would prefer more of a VG style at that point of stances where if you were a Bloodmage you could swap between Sanguine Focus (Better Heals) and Focus of Gelenia (Better Damage). And, perhaps wearing plate would make you a 50% less adept at healing and cloth would give you 50% less shields due to your movements being restricted by plate, etc.
But, I think an easier solution would be to keep all the same system design, content, ideas, etc. with specializations/skills/spells taking a long time to obtain, with the exception of not having a gear swap to change a stance. Let the player have access to all the skills/spells, etc. but a limited number of options like EQ (8 total), and have gear itemized where plate armor gives better stats towards a Resolute Stance (Maybe AC/Hps/Sta focused versus wisdom/mana) and cloth toward healing (Wisdom/Mana focused) and I believe the system would take care of itself without having to implement a gear-swap.
The swapping of the specializations "on-the-fly" seems gimmicky as an attempt to be unique; although, it's truly not all that different from VG stances with the exeception of the gear/skill requirement to change specializations being earned versus innate (thrugh trainer) in VG.
I dont view this as "forgetting" skills when you switch gear, just you no longer have the gear to access that particular mana type
Clerics have White (Divine) mana innate, you need gear to access the Resolute (Grey) mana
if you switch to your Devout gear you can now access Devout (lets say hot pink) mana but not Grey
Sevens said:
I dont view this as "forgetting" skills when you switch gear, just you no longer have the gear to access that particular mana type
Clerics have White (Divine) mana innate, you need gear to access the Resolute (Grey) mana
if you switch to your Devout gear you can now access Devout (lets say hot pink) mana but not Grey
Yeah, I see your point here, but it's really just semantics - forgetting vs not having access. Grey/White/Yellow/Green mana is swapped by the gear you put on, which, brings me back to my original point, that you wouldn't forget or not have access to use the skills/spells just because you put on plate armor, but, based off the gear you were using, you may not be as adept. Perhaps the plate armor had Grey Mana +100/-25 white mana and Cloth Armor had white mana +100/-25 grey mana which would take care of itself.
An example... Let's say that the cleric had a base mana pool of 500 white/500 grey, then based off worn gear you could have Breasplate of the Resolute - +100 Grey mana/-25 white mana. If the gear restricted the player based off stats, people would carry two sets of gear without needing to create artificial restrictions. And, in order to not create the over-powered player, the spell sets could be restricted to 8 spells so a person couldn't have access to all Grey/White spells at the same time, but maybe, that Resolute cleric wanted to mem 7 grey spells and 1 white one because both paths have been mastered.
I think without restricting the classes artificially, there will ultimately be more unique class combinations and emergent gameplay that happens as a result.
from what i have heard sofar, the mastery system itself could be a good thing. although with how it is setup currently i think "Mastery" is the wrong word.
also a thought i have been mulling over, what if the alternate mana colors came from items that anyone can equip like bracelets, trinkets, idols, charms, sigils, amulets, rings, etc. then instead of having only certain spells and abilities that are able to be learned per class you open up a specific number of spells and make them available to everyone? so maybe if i wanted my Crusader to be able to mezz for the extra aggro and utility, i could equip him with a mezz spell and the appropriate mana for it, but since he is not a ENC the cooldown would be tripled and mana cost doubled, making him only able to use the mezz every 15 mins or something like that? then he doesnt take the place of an ENC but he has a cool button for those "Oh Poopy" moments?
so i guess in short my suggestion is that it might be cooler if some of the lower level spells of different classes are available to all the classes to memorize, this way they dont take the place of the real class, but still have more Individuality, and there is no point where you ever have everything....
I thought there was a lot of good stuff here. I like the variation the system will create a lot of variation in the mid levels. You can see how the randomness of drops will greatly affect the variations of play style until end game where I guess everyone complaints above will come into play. I am not that worried about it because it seems to be a worry that is akin to maxing out AA's in EQ, sure it was possible but most people didn't. At lower loves you will do whichever you have the equipment and skills for and later you will probably focus on one similar to your preferred play style and then expand.
I also think that something a lot of people are forgetting with this is allowing for the flexibility for easier end game re-balancing. There will of course be extensive alpha and beta testing but there are always unforeseen complications that may affect the balance of the game. By allowing flexibility at the end game when a certain skill is nerfed the people who it affects will be able to switch if they want instead of being stuck in an unhappy situation.
I am interested to see how this matches up with the lore though. I wonder how the variations in mana will be worked in. Will it be something like the Malzan the Fallen system where what you are doing is accessing multiple warrens? Will the mana colors be related to deities? I am also really excited for more info on the dark myr.
Gawd said:from what i have heard sofar, the mastery system itself could be a good thing. although with how it is setup currently i think "Mastery" is the wrong word.
also a thought i have been mulling over, what if the alternate mana colors came from items that anyone can equip like bracelets, trinkets, idols, charms, sigils, amulets, rings, etc. then instead of having only certain spells and abilities that are able to be learned per class you open up a specific number of spells and make them available to everyone? so maybe if i wanted my Crusader to be able to mezz for the extra aggro and utility, i could equip him with a mezz spell and the appropriate mana for it, but since he is not a ENC the cooldown would be tripled and mana cost doubled, making him only able to use the mezz every 15 mins or something like that? then he doesnt take the place of an ENC but he has a cool button for those "Oh Poopy" moments?
so i guess in short my suggestion is that it might be cooler if some of the lower level spells of different classes are available to all the classes to memorize, this way they dont take the place of the real class, but still have more Individuality, and there is no point where you ever have everything....
I don't think any of this is a big problem for me. Most of this is situational and helps you through dungeons or fights. To the clerics, they have defined the role. You have the biggest heals you will be mt healer, you have the ability to get up close or sit in back, your preference. You can heal in any of your masteries you can also plug a hole where you might get over run by to many mobs in a way you have a cc but not really you could also be considered ot but not really. You have a shield that is blocking a hole to keep the group from being over run, but they also said you have 3 tunnels and you will still need the master of cc. You will need master of dps and tank, so you can deal with this 3 hole tunnel. I'm guessing you could also just stay pure healer but you will need 2-3 groups to take on said encounter with just single masteries. To me this just gives you and your group/ guild to take on things in different ways.
I plan to play a Druid with damage mastery ( not much into healing ) so if they are healers with a few cc abilities I will have to play a wizard class. Personally I like the VG system and I guessing after a year we will have all the gear drop and spells learned all down from silky or ten ton and it will be easy to get mastery just like VG but we will have to travel to get what we want.
It is up to us to make sure we get it balanced in alpha or change it, I think concerns are valid and this is very good and needed discussion. So lets get it all out and test what they have and make it awesome. I think the team also said it will be more EQ like that you have to mime spells and you will have only so many. Which I liked VG's better, but I'm up for new things, And that I'm guessing by what has been said that your grey or gold masteries will only have so much mana ( meaning smaller than ur white ) That your mastered will be very situational. So I look at it like cleric plugs said hole with mastered skill and drains 90% of his grey mana and it takes him 10 mins to rebuild all that mana so its 1 shot for 10 mins and he can only OT or CC for that 1 skill or maybe a few then he is spent and has to heal. Because he has lots more white mana and can heal for those full 10 mins and his role is not diminished. I like it.
I think it is a different approach to the talent trees or paths or subclass system of other games, that might be good or it might not be, what it will end up being though, is a royal pain in the rear for both players and developers.
Creating all the armors weapons and other stuff with various stats for the different classes, making sure there is enough difference to justify the time spent on them and then ask your players to spreadsheet the various armors they will need for their core and 2 masteries, not to mention inventory space for 3 armor sets, and it does not match up with weight being a factor as stated previously.
Could it be good or even awesome, sure, worth the effort for both sides, i doubt it.
Glad to see that thinking outside the box though, be alot easier to comment if we could see it in action *cough alpha cough cough*, darn that cold weather ^_^