Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

PvP and PvE on same server (hear me out)

    • 753 posts
    March 10, 2015 12:52 PM PDT

    Please forgive me - but I'm actually getting a little frustrated here, and probably need to step away from this particular conversation.

     

    This seems to be headed down the same sort of path that happens when someone who doesn't want harsh death penalties comes to a game like this, or doesn't want meaningful travel, or whatever....  Shows up and starts making "reasonable" demands.

     

    Specifically: 

     

    - The long stated design statement from the devs has been that this will be a PvE game, period - and a PvP server will be considered if enough interest rises up - but no development time will be spent on PvP...

     

    -  This is a design paradigm much desired by a particular player base.  That player base is strongly represented on these forums.  It is a player base that has invested hope in believing the developers will deliver on that stated design paradigm... an old school, Brad McQuaid, PvE MMO.

     

    - We now have posts that accuse people who want to stick to that stated design as being "close minded" - because, you know, it is people who want what the game has promised who should give up what they want - expand their horizons - and open up their minds - in order to appease someone asking the game to be something different.

     

    I find such commentary to be highly agitating.

     

     


    This post was edited by Wandidar at March 10, 2015 11:36 PM PDT
    • 63 posts
    March 10, 2015 1:03 PM PDT

    I always liked the Priest of Discord system from EverQuest. It was non-invasive to the PVE players, and allowed the small pocket of people who may be interested in that play style to do it on the side.

    • 106 posts
    March 10, 2015 1:36 PM PDT
    Thanks for the backup Anasyn :)

    I guess it's been awhile since I played (2004) and the only game I played properly was EQ, I dabbled in WoW and Diablo III but it looks like PvP isn't what it used to be.

    Let me start by saying I am neither sided, I started PvE and have been playing PvP lately and love it

    I think no matter what things you implement people will always try to find the unfair advantage, it wouldn't be any worse than zoning because they would need to think about the lockout rule before they just up and run, it wouldn't be worth it for a PvPer.

    And all you guys getting your pantys in a bunch, calm down we are only discussing the idea, we all know PvE is first, it always will be, PvPers still have to have a PvE world to play in, but if it we didn't discuss this stuff now, then when are we going to discuss it? When we are all playing?
    • 288 posts
    March 10, 2015 2:28 PM PDT
    Kilsin said:

    Our stance is very clear, we are creating a PvE focussed game, once we are at a point that we are happy in what we have, we can get feedback on PvP numbers, if there is enough interest in a PvP server, we can open a server strictly for PvP away from the PvE servers with a few tweaks to make it fun for those members.

    PvP if implemented on it's own server, will have no impact on PvE, we understand that our target audience is a very large majority in favour of strictly PvE only gameplay and we will not ever turn a blind eye to that.

    So do not worry and feel threatened by PvP, if we get enough interest, we will gladly open a server and let the PvP crowd have fun but it will not impact PvE at all.

     

    And this is the best way to do it, PVP simply doesn't belong on a PVE server.  They are 2 completely different communities and should be kept seperate.  One of the only places that segregation is actually a good thing.

     

    I however challenge the rest of this community to stop with the pitchforks and torches whenever someone brings up PVP.  Trust in your developers not to adulterate your PvE game with PvP mechanics as they have already stated multiple times they will not, but embrace the PVP community because they just like you want to help Pantheon get traction and become a thing.  You should enjoy any attention the game can receive, whether it affects you or not.

    • 133 posts
    March 11, 2015 7:49 AM PDT
    Montreseur said:

    I always liked the Priest of Discord system from EverQuest. It was non-invasive to the PVE players, and allowed the small pocket of people who may be interested in that play style to do it on the side.

     

    True but Early EverQuest suffered from PvP change affecting PvE and vice versa.  Back in the day Everyone whined like little girls because a Necromancer was near unbeatable in PvP, but EQ was primarily a PvE game, so who cares right?.  Lots and it cause nerf after nerf after nerf all because of PvP.

     

    This is why I don't want it on my PvE server, I have no issue with a PvP server if the support is there, and changes to classes and what ever else to support a balanced PvP stay there and off my PvE server and vice versa. 

    • 133 posts
    March 11, 2015 7:55 AM PDT
    Deadlyfury said:
    Thanks for the backup Anasyn :) I guess it's been awhile since I played (2004) and the only game I played properly was EQ, I dabbled in WoW and Diablo III but it looks like PvP isn't what it used to be. Let me start by saying I am neither sided, I started PvE and have been playing PvP lately and love it I think no matter what things you implement people will always try to find the unfair advantage, it wouldn't be any worse than zoning because they would need to think about the lockout rule before they just up and run, it wouldn't be worth it for a PvPer. And all you guys getting your pantys in a bunch, calm down we are only discussing the idea, we all know PvE is first, it always will be, PvPers still have to have a PvE world to play in, but if it we didn't discuss this stuff now, then when are we going to discuss it? When we are all playing?

     

    I don't understand, your stating you want a discussion but with the "panties in a bunch" statement you elude to you do not want this to be a discussion, but a thread locked for a one sided view?  Just so you are aware, just because someone disagrees with you and brings forth the"other side" of the coin, doesn't mean they have their panties all knotted up.  It just means they want to join the discussion with their view....  Maybe I am missing something but isn't that what a discussion truly is?

     

    I would push the thought forward that if you did not want anyone to come and put forth the other side of the pro PvP discussion, then do not post it in the public forum. 

    • 610 posts
    March 11, 2015 8:03 AM PDT
    Exmortis said:
    Deadlyfury said:
    Thanks for the backup Anasyn :) I guess it's been awhile since I played (2004) and the only game I played properly was EQ, I dabbled in WoW and Diablo III but it looks like PvP isn't what it used to be. Let me start by saying I am neither sided, I started PvE and have been playing PvP lately and love it I think no matter what things you implement people will always try to find the unfair advantage, it wouldn't be any worse than zoning because they would need to think about the lockout rule before they just up and run, it wouldn't be worth it for a PvPer. And all you guys getting your pantys in a bunch, calm down we are only discussing the idea, we all know PvE is first, it always will be, PvPers still have to have a PvE world to play in, but if it we didn't discuss this stuff now, then when are we going to discuss it? When we are all playing?

     

    I don't understand, your stating you want a discussion but with the "panties in a bunch" statement you elude to you do not want this to be a discussion, but a thread locked for a one sided view?  Just so you are aware, just because someone disagrees with you and brings forth the"other side" of the coin, doesn't mean they have their panties all knotted up.  It just means they want to join the discussion with their view....  Maybe I am missing something but isn't that what a discussion truly is?

     

    I would push the thought forward that if you did not want anyone to come and put forth the other side of the pro PvP discussion, then do not post it in the public forum. 

    This has 100% been my experience in any PVP vs PVE debate...I get told I have my panties in a bunch

    I need to learn to play

    I am scared of PVP

    Im not good enough to hang with the PVPers

    Im a carebear

    Sorry but I have had to many MMOs just ruined because of PVP so not I dont care if you are "thinking outside the box" or even if my panties are in a bunch...this is one area I really feel strongly about and I will resist any attempt to put PVP anywhere near my PVE or to even "tweak" the game for pvp in any way shape or form

    • 133 posts
    March 11, 2015 8:04 AM PDT
    Anasyn said:

    I'm also against them balancing around PVP. But Deadlyfury wasn't asking for anything of the sort. I don't believe I've read a single post on these forums asking the developers to make a special server with balanced abilities. If the PVP players want to play Pantheon then they get the same abilities as the PVE players and learn to deal with them. I don't want any of the team to spend anytime trying to balance classes around PVP. This game is being developed to be a PVE game just like EQ1 and VG. As far as I can remember both of these games had /duel and an arena. I know Vanguard came out way later on after release.

    Everquest

    http://www.allakabor.com/eqatlas/arena.html

    http://guidescroll.com/2012/03/everquest-pvp-locations-guide/

    You are correct, however those will come, as they did in EQ.  Vanguard had a separate server for PvP, and changes to the game to support a proper thriving and hopefully happy PvP population can be done with out the affect on the PvE game.  Now if they are not going to spend anytime supporting it and say the Paladin ends up being totally unbeatable in PvP are you saying everyone would be totally cool and completely and utterly accept the fact that as soon as a Pally enters no one within 5 levels of him can win?  Never once to demand a change?  ever?

     

    That's why I want it kept to its own server.

    • 133 posts
    March 11, 2015 8:05 AM PDT
    Sevens said:
    Exmortis said:
    Deadlyfury said:
    Thanks for the backup Anasyn :) I guess it's been awhile since I played (2004) and the only game I played properly was EQ, I dabbled in WoW and Diablo III but it looks like PvP isn't what it used to be. Let me start by saying I am neither sided, I started PvE and have been playing PvP lately and love it I think no matter what things you implement people will always try to find the unfair advantage, it wouldn't be any worse than zoning because they would need to think about the lockout rule before they just up and run, it wouldn't be worth it for a PvPer. And all you guys getting your pantys in a bunch, calm down we are only discussing the idea, we all know PvE is first, it always will be, PvPers still have to have a PvE world to play in, but if it we didn't discuss this stuff now, then when are we going to discuss it? When we are all playing?

     

    I don't understand, your stating you want a discussion but with the "panties in a bunch" statement you elude to you do not want this to be a discussion, but a thread locked for a one sided view?  Just so you are aware, just because someone disagrees with you and brings forth the"other side" of the coin, doesn't mean they have their panties all knotted up.  It just means they want to join the discussion with their view....  Maybe I am missing something but isn't that what a discussion truly is?

     

    I would push the thought forward that if you did not want anyone to come and put forth the other side of the pro PvP discussion, then do not post it in the public forum. 

    This has 100% been my experience in any PVP vs PVE debate...I get told I have my panties in a bunch

    I need to learn to play

    I am scared of PVP

    Im not good enough to hang with the PVPers

    Im a carebear

    Sorry but I have had to many MMOs just ruined because of PVP so not I dont care if you are "thinking outside the box" or even if my panties are in a bunch...this is one area I really feel strongly about and I will resist any attempt to put PVP anywhere near my PVE or to even "tweak" the game for pvp in any way shape or form

    UM but....See.... You kinda do look like a CareBear in that avatar pic of  yours...So..UM... Maybe that's why they called you that?

    • 308 posts
    March 11, 2015 8:19 AM PDT
    Deadlyfury said:
    Thoughts? Opinions? 

    Your original post asked for thoughts and opinions, which is exactly what you received.  I will also add that most, if not all, of the responses in this thread were respectful which is more than i can say happens on many other game forums when the PvP/PvE discussions happens.   No one got their panties in wad, except maybe you?

    • 383 posts
    March 11, 2015 9:30 AM PDT

    I have played many pvp games before and even some where full loot was the thing and to be honest the only thing I have ever seen come from pvp is group on single ganking, complaining, raging, and nerfs. In a pve game the only thing I see is people complaining about first world problems and working together.


    This post was edited by Niien at March 11, 2015 9:33 AM PDT
    • 179 posts
    March 11, 2015 10:50 AM PDT

    About half of the replies to his post didn't address his idea. Niien and a few other respected Deadlyfury's idea. Even when they didn't like it they gave him the reason why and also what they thought would improve on his original idea. Please don't drive new players away by attacking their ideas it gives the community a bad reputation. No question is a stupid question and the same could be said about an idea. Be respectful and if you dislike an idea give an example of how to improve on the idea or one that was implemented in another game but failed.

    BTW I'm not defending PVP players I've pretty much disliked PVP in every game that I've played in except WvW in GW2. In GW2 WvW was a large community goal/event and I enjoyed the way they implemented it into their PVE game. They separated PVE and PVP players. The developers have already stated the game is being created as a PVE game. But they have also said it's always a posability down the road. This is why people give ideas on how they might do that. Deadlyfury never once said the developers need to stop what they are currently working on and start working on his idea. This idea could be developed way down the road and I believe it would work out in the long run better then creating a PVP only server that would eventually die.

    A simple post like this one is great

    Niien said:

    It sounds interesting, though since it would take a ton of dev time to make that happen I would like the idea of flagging for PvP instead as it would require a lot less dev time. I would also like the flag to last for a week when you do it... so you don't have someone just flag to help a friend without a very serious choice being made first.

     

    Or bring it old school and make people hand in their book lol... And if you get groups would have something to do with if you were pvp or not.

     



    X

    • 48 posts
    March 11, 2015 12:10 PM PDT

    Well for this game I will say 100% that we need to focus on building the ground of Pantheon. I mean we are talking about having to sacrifice on major systems at launch such as crafting so I think anyone should get hopeful over any pvp prior to launch.

     

    Secondly I have yet to play a game with a pvp crowd that has been successful. I'm not saying the people here, but the majority of the pvp centric crowd constantly game hops and does not make a very good stable player base. 

     

    Third if I were to say any specific game who did PVE/PVP in a way that was unintrusive, but yet still fun to play even for people who normally don't like PVP it would be Warhammer Online. Even for its glaring faults which eventually killed the game, warhammer had specific areas of the game land normally in the middle or one section of the map that was clearly defined and marked as a pvp area. PVE content never entered into it, and you could go through the whole game with out having to pvp, but the pvp, and keeps were so well done in that game it was just fun to do anyway, I normally hate overland pvp, but I loved it in Warhammer.

    • 288 posts
    March 11, 2015 1:43 PM PDT

    I would just like to speak a bit for the PVP community that I consider myself a part of, we're not all like the people posting in this thread.  Some of us just enjoy hunting a human every now and again, and to alleviate the "camp" issues as well as "FTE" issues with PVP.

     

    By all means get awnry on these "panties in a bunch" pvp posters.. but remember there are those of us who play on PVP servers who agree that we need to be segregated and we love the fact that Pantheon is being built as a PVE game first.

    • 201 posts
    March 12, 2015 5:44 AM PDT

    I think it depends on what type of PvP the pvp'ers are looking for.  A Flag system really isn't the same as a PvP server.  It's more of a universal duel system.  I also think it depends on the interest.  For example if there are 1000 user cap per server and there are 933 potential pvp players, it would just be easier to give them their own server with pvp rules.