Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

PvP and PvE on same server (hear me out)

    • 106 posts
    March 9, 2015 4:56 PM PDT
    Here is an epic idea..

    A PvP enabled plane, where you can jump to a pvp version of the world, so you have PvPers and PvEers able to chat, converse and be in the same guild, but at the same time the pvpers can't ruin the others fun.

    you could limit plane jumps to RL 24 hours to stop unfair jumps I think this could work!

    Thoughts? Opinions? I'm not a PvPer so I don't know how you guys would see this.

    My reasoning is I see Project 1999 eq1 classic server setup with blue and red cuts down the population on both and it would be good to just get a taste of PvP without having to start a whole new Character, and I'm sure some PvPers would like a break every now and then :)
    • 31 posts
    March 9, 2015 5:09 PM PDT

    In a lot of other games you can flag yourself for pvp on a pve server and it makes you attackable. Only problem is that if you are in a group with someone that is flagged or heal them you get flagged yourself for 5 minutes.

    • 383 posts
    March 9, 2015 5:16 PM PDT

    It sounds interesting, though since it would take a ton of dev time to make that happen I would like the idea of flagging for PvP instead as it would require a lot less dev time. I would also like the flag to last for a week when you do it... so you don't have someone just flag to help a friend without a very serious choice being made first.

     

    Or bring it old school and make people hand in their book lol... And if you get groups would have something to do with if you were pvp or not.


    This post was edited by Niien at March 9, 2015 5:16 PM PDT
    • 106 posts
    March 9, 2015 6:54 PM PDT
    Ephemeros said:

    In a lot of other games you can flag yourself for pvp on a pve server and it makes you attackable. Only problem is that if you are in a group with someone that is flagged or heal them you get flagged yourself for 5 minutes.

    The flagging is cool, but you run into issues of whole enviromental PvP situations being unable to come to play because the zone is PvE like raid mob contests which are sorted via PvP.

    But you are right, the development implementation would probably outweigh just having 2 different servers, i guess it's just a unrealistic wish lol I can dream i guess

    • 753 posts
    March 9, 2015 7:08 PM PDT

    Here's my idea:

     

    1)  As part of the alpha and beta test - determine what the number of people it is that are needed for a healthy server to survive

    2)  Put up a poll in several outlets that says "Will you play on a PvP server if there are no considerations for PvP on that server besides enabling you to kill each other)

    3)  If enough people answer yes to create whatever was determined to be a healthy server - then go ahead and open one up.

     

     

    I like that you are thinking outside the box - but - I think most folks here in this small community of future Pantheon players have expressed a desire to be mostly PvP free :) 


    This post was edited by Wandidar at March 9, 2015 11:44 PM PDT
    • 318 posts
    March 9, 2015 8:43 PM PDT

    Let me start off saying, if Pantheon only has PvE servers, I will certainly still play and have fun.

     

    But for me, as one of the PRO PvP crowd (I guess there are only a few of us who are backers),  the real fun of PvP for me is the large scale fights. Like 2+ guilds battling it out over contested raid content or control over a zone, ect.

     

    I would much rather have the option to fight another raid over a boss, rather than having to petition a GM about a stolen raid kill. Or kill the player who is training our raid, rather than petition a GM. I just see it as more freedom in the hands of the players.

     

    A system like the one proposed (PvE and PvP on the same server) wouldn't satisfy my need for PvP in these situations. All it would take is a player or guild who isn't flagged for PvP to train or kill steal another guild.

     

    I'm not trying to push PvP onto anyone who doesn't want it. Personally, I don't even want anything tweaked for a PvP server. All I would like is simply the option to kill the player who is training mobs into my camp.

    • 106 posts
    March 9, 2015 11:27 PM PDT
    Wellspring said:

    Let me start off saying, if Pantheon only has PvE servers, I will certainly still play and have fun.

     

    But for me, as one of the PRO PvP crowd (I guess there are only a few of us who are backers),  the real fun of PvP for me is the large scale fights. Like 2+ guilds battling it out over contested raid content or control over a zone, ect.

     

    I would much rather have the option to fight another raid over a boss, rather than having to petition a GM about a stolen raid kill. Or kill the player who is training our raid, rather than petition a GM. I just see it as more freedom in the hands of the players.

     

    A system like the one proposed (PvE and PvP on the same server) wouldn't satisfy my need for PvP in these situations. All it would take is a player or guild who isn't flagged for PvP to train or kill steal another guild.

     

    I'm not trying to push PvP onto anyone who doesn't want it. Personally, I don't even want anything tweaked for a PvP server. All I would like is simply the option to kill the player who is training mobs into my camp.


    Maybe I wasn't clear enough, it was a little hard to explain. There is a WHOLE other version of the world, almost like a higher plane that is a veil that can only be seen by PvPers, you can only cross this plane if you become PvP but you can't see PvEers and they can't see you, you can still talk, still apart of the same server, guild, ooc or shout, but the zone/world is on a totally different NPC run. You can only cross this plane via a designated NPC (like a priest of discord) and there is a lockout to go back (you can stay there all you want) or you can start in this plane if you are a PvPer. That make sense?
    • 753 posts
    March 9, 2015 11:46 PM PDT

    Remember that this is a game being made on a limited budget (unless they suddenly get a windfall of cash).  Exotic things like "There's a whole other version of the world" - I believe Blizzard calls this "phasing" - is something that would take away from developing game content. 

    • 38 posts
    March 9, 2015 11:48 PM PDT

    I don't like the idea for a few reasons, mostly because I find the general PvP community disagreeable with me, and if someone is talking, I would like to see then regardless of status.

     

    Once again I have the same thoughts as Wand. Make the game first then consider PvP.

    • 366 posts
    March 10, 2015 2:29 AM PDT

    I like your out-of-the box thinking, but I am concerned that jumping into another plane will allow for players to exploit the system. They can pop in and out of the planes to avoid death or to gain something that is not on the mirror plane (like a node, quest item or mob)

     


    This post was edited by Zarriya at March 10, 2015 10:38 AM PDT
    • 610 posts
    March 10, 2015 3:15 AM PDT

    OR....and hear me out

    We just let PVP discussion die on these forums, its been discussed to death and the Dev team has already announced their plans (pretty much none) concerning PVP. PvPers are not their target audience.

    • 308 posts
    March 10, 2015 4:22 AM PDT

    i imagine that pvpers will probably get an arena in a zone. the arena would be big enough for some big battles, and may even get some type of BOTB GM event. i would be surprised if a pvp server was even enabled.

    • 44 posts
    March 10, 2015 4:26 AM PDT

    PvP in a tab target game is just boring as hell and not needed for Pantheon imo. the only PvP games i like are games where you actually have to aim to hit ala Darkfall

    • 9115 posts
    March 10, 2015 5:14 AM PDT

    Our stance is very clear, we are creating a PvE focussed game, once we are at a point that we are happy in what we have, we can get feedback on PvP numbers, if there is enough interest in a PvP server, we can open a server strictly for PvP away from the PvE servers with a few tweaks to make it fun for those members.

    PvP if implemented on it's own server, will have no impact on PvE, we understand that our target audience is a very large majority in favour of strictly PvE only gameplay and we will not ever turn a blind eye to that.

    So do not worry and feel threatened by PvP, if we get enough interest, we will gladly open a server and let the PvP crowd have fun but it will not impact PvE at all.

    • 201 posts
    March 10, 2015 6:27 AM PDT

    I've played on both pve and pvp servers.  I think the real thing to consider is,  If people are on a pve server, most likely they only want to pve.  So I think the direction they are going  is perfect.

    • 50 posts
    March 10, 2015 10:10 AM PDT
    Deadlyfury said:
    Here is an epic idea.. A PvP enabled plane, where you can jump to a pvp version of the world, so you have PvPers and PvEers able to chat, converse and be in the same guild, but at the same time the pvpers can't ruin the others fun. you could limit plane jumps to RL 24 hours to stop unfair jumps I think this could work! Thoughts? Opinions? I'm not a PvPer so I don't know how you guys would see this. My reasoning is I see Project 1999 eq1 classic server setup with blue and red cuts down the population on both and it would be good to just get a taste of PvP without having to start a whole new Character, and I'm sure some PvPers would like a break every now and then :)

    This goes against every core concept of what this game is.  This is about creating a consistent world that your character lives in.  Is it logical at all that your character would go to a nether realm to start pvping ?

    Here is a unique concept for you tho and something not done in almost 10 years.  You make a game that is PVE at its core and you have pvp arenas that allow players to square off with each other in these open world venues.  If you die however you lose experience and classes aren't balanced for pvp because its not the core of what the game is about.  Now that's a game I would sign up to play

    • 318 posts
    March 10, 2015 11:06 AM PDT
    Deadlyfury said:
    Wellspring said:

    Let me start off saying, if Pantheon only has PvE servers, I will certainly still play and have fun.

     

    But for me, as one of the PRO PvP crowd (I guess there are only a few of us who are backers),  the real fun of PvP for me is the large scale fights. Like 2+ guilds battling it out over contested raid content or control over a zone, ect.

     

    I would much rather have the option to fight another raid over a boss, rather than having to petition a GM about a stolen raid kill. Or kill the player who is training our raid, rather than petition a GM. I just see it as more freedom in the hands of the players.

     

    A system like the one proposed (PvE and PvP on the same server) wouldn't satisfy my need for PvP in these situations. All it would take is a player or guild who isn't flagged for PvP to train or kill steal another guild.

     

    I'm not trying to push PvP onto anyone who doesn't want it. Personally, I don't even want anything tweaked for a PvP server. All I would like is simply the option to kill the player who is training mobs into my camp.


    Maybe I wasn't clear enough, it was a little hard to explain. There is a WHOLE other version of the world, almost like a higher plane that is a veil that can only be seen by PvPers, you can only cross this plane if you become PvP but you can't see PvEers and they can't see you, you can still talk, still apart of the same server, guild, ooc or shout, but the zone/world is on a totally different NPC run. You can only cross this plane via a designated NPC (like a priest of discord) and there is a lockout to go back (you can stay there all you want) or you can start in this plane if you are a PvPer. That make sense?

    I get what you're saying now. I don't see any advantages with the system being described versus simply having separate servers for PvP and PvE.

     

    The only difference I see with your system is that you could easily transfer between the two rulesets (with a cool down timer), but I don't think that is a good idea. For the same reasons, you don't want to allow server transfers between PvP servers and PvE servers. It would create an unfair advantage for a player to be able to level and get fully raid geared on a PvE server, then transfer over to a PvP server having not had to face the same challenges that the PvP only players had to face. And vice versa for a PvP player transferring to a PvE server.

     

    Also, the ability to easily transfer between the PvP and PvE rulesets (whether it be between servers or your system), I don't see it as being something most players would use. At most, I see players switching rulesets once or maybe twice at the most (like if you are a PvE'er and you want to reroll and give PvP a shot). I am generalizing here, but I think most players know what they like, and would not want to constantly switch between the two rulesets.

    • 179 posts
    March 10, 2015 11:19 AM PDT

    I really like that Deadlyfury is thinking outside the box. And I'm actually really ashamed by how many others are so closed minded. Before you get your panties in a bunch I actually prefer PVE servers and believe they have way better communities. But I do believe that PvP players are a large crowd of paying customers I wouldn't throw to the curb. We play fantasy games online and the developers have the ability to tell a story. They could easily throw in another dimension like the idea by Deadlyfury. DJay also had another great idea for PvP arenas. EQ1 had a few of these arenas spread around the world also. Vanguard in fact had a arena high above in the sky for such the situation. I rarely visited any of these arenas in EQ1 or VG but when I did it was centered around a guild event and we had a blast fighting against each other that night and making teams to fight each other. WvW (server vs. server) from GW2 was also very fun and another idea. I will never play on a PvP server but I atleast enjoy the great post made by our members and try to have an open mind when it comes to new ideas. Who knows they might think of something like a different type of mana bar that hasn't been introduced in previous games. :) Or great classes like the Bloodmage or Disciple.

    • 753 posts
    March 10, 2015 11:32 AM PDT
    Anasyn said:

    I really like that Deadlyfury is thinking outside the box. And I'm actually really ashamed by how many others are so closed minded. Before you get your panties in a bunch I actually prefer PVE servers and believe they have way better communities. But I do believe that PvP players are a large crowd of paying customers I wouldn't throw to the curb. We play fantasy games online and the developers have the ability to tell a story. They could easily throw in another dimension like the idea by Deadlyfury. DJay also had another great idea for PvP arenas. EQ1 had a few of these arenas spread around the world also. Vanguard in fact had a arena high above in the sky for such the situation. I rarely visited any of these arenas in EQ1 or VG but when I did it was centered around a guild event and we had a blast fighting against each other that night and making teams to fight each other. WvW (server vs. server) from GW2 was also very fun and another idea. I will never play on a PvP server but I atleast enjoy the great post made by our members and try to have an open mind when it comes to new ideas. Who knows they might think of something like a different type of mana bar that hasn't been introduced in previous games. :) Or great classes like the Bloodmage or Disciple.

    I believe though - that the devs have already set their course here (see Kilsin's comments):

     

    1)  Focus on PvE

    2)  At some point determine how much interest is there in PvP (i.e. is there enough to support a server)

    3)  If there is, have a server with PvP turned on (no special rules enabled)

     

    It's not that people are being close minded.  It is that requests for PvP inclusion are asking for changes to the stated path of the game.  People are resistant to that - first because many here are not PvPers - second because developing for PvP would take away from the stated path of the game (PvE) - third because there is a fear that creating the game for both (even if there were ample time or money) would result in a lesser PvE game due to PvP concerns.

     

    Just playing devil's advocate, the close minded commentary could be flipped as well:  Why not understand that this is intended to be a PvE game, and stop insisting on (i.e being close minded about) the inclusion of PvP.

     

     

    • 610 posts
    March 10, 2015 11:40 AM PDT
    Anasyn said:

    I really like that Deadlyfury is thinking outside the box. And I'm actually really ashamed by how many others are so closed minded. Before you get your panties in a bunch I actually prefer PVE servers and believe they have way better communities. But I do believe that PvP players are a large crowd of paying customers I wouldn't throw to the curb. We play fantasy games online and the developers have the ability to tell a story. They could easily throw in another dimension like the idea by Deadlyfury. DJay also had another great idea for PvP arenas. EQ1 had a few of these arenas spread around the world also. Vanguard in fact had a arena high above in the sky for such the situation. I rarely visited any of these arenas in EQ1 or VG but when I did it was centered around a guild event and we had a blast fighting against each other that night and making teams to fight each other. WvW (server vs. server) from GW2 was also very fun and another idea. I will never play on a PvP server but I atleast enjoy the great post made by our members and try to have an open mind when it comes to new ideas. Who knows they might think of something like a different type of mana bar that hasn't been introduced in previous games. :) Or great classes like the Bloodmage or Disciple.

    Its not about being closed minded or trying to shout someone down for "thinking outside the box"

    Its that I personally have been burned way to much by my game being balanced for PVP.

    This is a PVE game, its what was sold to us it is what the devs have repeatedly stated is their intention and most here are just to leery of having the two game types mixed. It never turns out pretty

    • 308 posts
    March 10, 2015 11:52 AM PDT

    I love PvP and RvR, but I have yet to find a single PvE game that offered any real engaging PvP.   Daoc is the only game that managed to fulfill both desires for me and it was a PvP first but no other game i have tried has been able to recreate that.  That's why I am more interested in PvP games to scratch that itch (Camelot Unchained and Crowfall) rather than lobbying for PvP added to this game.  I have no issues with a PvP special ruleset server (which they have already said they would entertain) and will wholeheartedly support it but will never play on it.  I am also adamantly against the inclusion of any PvP beyond dueling and arenas on PvE servers; it's already been stated this is a PvE focused game.  Let's leave it that way, they have a large enough mountain to climb to build this game for PvE'ers.   

    • 179 posts
    March 10, 2015 12:09 PM PDT

    Guildwars 2 has the ability to create an overflow zone when the population of the current zone gets to high.

    Here is an example of what an overflow is.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Talk:Overflow

    Deadlyfury isn't bringing up an idea that hasn't already been implemented before in another game. He's just throwing out a great idea that if implemented correctly would mean you wouldn't need to make a PvP server down the road if the developers decided to.

    For example imagine Pantheon releases with 5 servers. You could play on your PVE server and remain in your original guild. And if they decided to add PvP down the road they could use an Overflow type of system but instead of it being in another PVE zone you would now be in a PVP zone. You could even have it created for all 5 servers going into one PVP "Overflow". If you are worried about people abusing this system take all the raid encounters and named mobs out of the zones. You can even take it a step further and make it so that you can only solo mobs (Pantheon is a group game good luck killing something by yourself). If you want to group up with another player you won't be able to attack any mobs you will get an immunity error. This allows people to group up and create raids to fight other players.

    I'm all for focusing on the PvE. I honestly don't care if it's implemented five years down the road or never at all. But I enjoy people who are creative and want to share an idea with the community. Let's see EQ1, EQ2, Rift, WoW, AA, Vanguard, Archeage, and I've played many more games since I left EQ1 and all of them had some area that allowed folks to enjoy themselves by fighting each other.

     

     

     

     

    • 179 posts
    March 10, 2015 12:21 PM PDT

    I'm also against them balancing around PVP. But Deadlyfury wasn't asking for anything of the sort. I don't believe I've read a single post on these forums asking the developers to make a special server with balanced abilities. If the PVP players want to play Pantheon then they get the same abilities as the PVE players and learn to deal with them. I don't want any of the team to spend anytime trying to balance classes around PVP. This game is being developed to be a PVE game just like EQ1 and VG. As far as I can remember both of these games had /duel and an arena. I know Vanguard came out way later on after release.

    Everquest

    http://www.allakabor.com/eqatlas/arena.html

    http://guidescroll.com/2012/03/everquest-pvp-locations-guide/

    • 753 posts
    March 10, 2015 12:44 PM PDT
    Anasyn said:

    I'm also against them balancing around PVP. But Deadlyfury wasn't asking for anything of the sort. I don't believe I've read a single post on these forums asking the developers to make a special server with balanced abilities. If the PVP players want to play Pantheon then they get the same abilities as the PVE players and learn to deal with them. I don't want any of the team to spend anytime trying to balance classes around PVP. This game is being developed to be a PVE game just like EQ1 and VG. As far as I can remember both of these games had /duel and an arena. I know Vanguard came out way later on after release.

    Everquest

    http://www.allakabor.com/eqatlas/arena.html

    http://guidescroll.com/2012/03/everquest-pvp-locations-guide/

     

    No - but there are two issues at hand beyond whether or not they didn't develop for a single PvP concern:

     

    1)  His idea introduces the concept of Phasing - which means development time.  That is, the "alternate reality" of an exact same zone where you would be ale to PvP separate from PvE going on means that the ability to enable that has to be developed, tested, etc... and that time would be time taken away from developing PvE content.

     

    2)  Implementing PvP this way would put people looking for PvP and people who only want PvE on the same server.  This absolutely WOULD result in people being griefed out of what they want to do.  If by no other expedient than some tard doing stuff like this:

    - Turn on PvP flag

    - /taunt

    - /spit

    - /em thinks you are a coward

     

    Am I saying all PvPers are like that - absolutely not.  Am I saying some PvPers will do that - absolutely.

     

    Hell - even more annoying... ever play WoW and have someone from the other faction run into a fight you are engaged in and pop their flag so that you hit them if you do anything other than single target... thus causing your flag to flip?  In those cases, you were in PvP whether you wanted to be or not.

     

    • 133 posts
    March 10, 2015 12:46 PM PDT
    Kilsin said:

    Our stance is very clear, we are creating a PvE focussed game, once we are at a point that we are happy in what we have, we can get feedback on PvP numbers, if there is enough interest in a PvP server, we can open a server strictly for PvP away from the PvE servers with a few tweaks to make it fun for those members.

    PvP if implemented on it's own server, will have no impact on PvE, we understand that our target audience is a very large majority in favour of strictly PvE only gameplay and we will not ever turn a blind eye to that.

    So do not worry and feel threatened by PvP, if we get enough interest, we will gladly open a server and let the PvP crowd have fun but it will not impact PvE at all.


    Personally I do not play PVP, but I have no issue with PvP servers, in fact thats my preferred method.  Not becauase I do not want to play with PvP players, but because I do not want PvP changes affecting PvE game, and I am sure the PvP players do not want PvE changes adversly affecting their game play either. So its a win win I think.

     

    If there is enough support, then a PvP server is a good way to go.  But remember, EQ PvP died off due to lack of support, Vanguards PvP server was kept long after it had any amount of population, if the target audience is those MMO players, it would seem to me that PvE be the prudent choice at launch and then as Dev time is freed, and the support is there, look at PvP.