Forums » General Guild Discussion

Guild Discussion

    • Moderator
    • 8593 posts
    March 10, 2015 1:48 AM PDT
    Wandidar said:
    Kilsin said:
    DJay said:

    Totally agree that all you need is basic tools to support a guild to benefit the game and the list you gave is pretty in depth.

     

    Something I would like to talk about here is the guild search/recruitment tool.  Fundamentally this has been done to poor effect in most games.  What I would like to see a comprehensive tool that allows guilds to post exactly what their looking for and fill out a full description of the guild to allow players to refine their search.

    Search Functions:

    Guild type: Raiding, Social, Casual, PVP

    Class Needs

    Age Group

    Prime time Hours or Raid Hours

     

    These are key indicators that will best help players identify possible recruits/guilds.  On top of this there needs to be a system in place that will remove guilds from the list based off activity.

    The feature that Zandil and I spoke about above incorporates these things that you listed above, it really was a great way to find the best guild for you and your play style and time zone but I think we can add more like apply country tags etc.

    Most guilds will have a recruit message that shows in a window to say whatever they want about their guild, the +18 tag or family friendly tag or raiding or multiple tags, where they came from, how their guild started, what they want to achieve etc. so that is also very helpful.

     

    One thing I would love to see come back from EQ - the notion of having to actually apply and earn your way into a guild... because name was critically important - yours AND your guild's...  Because by having a guild tag on, you represented your guild.

     

    In my guild - you needed to apply - and you had to have a sponsor within the guild.  A sponsor was a member in good standing who would vouch for you.  Apps with sponsors were tagged and were on probation for a month.  In that month, you had to gain 15 positive votes from members including 3 officer votes.  Most guild members would not vote for you if they did not group with you.   Officers definitely would not vote for you if they did not group with you - AND talk to you for a while.  I was an officer and I would spend an entire night with an app grouping, talking, etc... and then continue to chat with them over the course of at least a couple weeks before I would vote for them.  Getting in the guild MEANT something.

     

    NOW - I know that what I'm talking about goes beyond any guild system implemented in the game... it is just me sort of wistfully thinking back and hoping Pantheon ends up being THAT game - meaning "the MMO where people start caring about their name and their reputation again"

    That is completely up to the guild but I am huge on the application process via a guild website (management discussion whether to allow app to go through) 1 month trial period (with sponsor and management watching) then a final decision made by management to whether allow full membership or reject them on fair grounds and wish them luck while sending them on their way.

    It sounds harsh but it has to be for guilds to work properly, a lot of people put a lot of time and effort into creating, maintaining and managing them to help others enjoy their gaming, you cannot let people in that will ruin that.

    • 501 posts
    March 10, 2015 2:16 AM PDT

    Multi guilding is one of those things (like a cross-server group finder) that promotes anonymity and deteriorates a community.

     

    @ Kilsin thank you for explaining guild ownership in Vanguard, I did not play it long enough to be part of a guild. It sounds like a safer version of Eq2's system.   I also do all my own recruiting on my own website, as in many games it is too shallow to allow for me to recruit well. So (unless its good) I probably wouldn't use an in-game recruiting tool.


    This post was edited by Zarriya at March 10, 2015 2:25 AM PDT
    • Moderator
    • 8593 posts
    March 10, 2015 2:27 AM PDT
    Zarriya said:

    Multi guilding is one of those things (like a cross-server group finder) that promotes anonymity and deteriorates a community.

     

    @ Kilsin thank you for explaining guild ownership in Vanguard, I did not play it long enough to be part of a guild. It sounds like a safer version of Eq2's system.   I also do all my own recruiting on my own website, as in may games it is too shallow to allow for me to recruit well. So (unless its good) I probably wouldn't use an in-game recruiting tool.

    You're welcome :)

     

    The recruiting feature we had in game for VG was just a toggle option to tag anyone in your guild with "Recruiter", it would not show up any here but it would display their name in the "Looking for Guild" tab when people are browsing for a guild to join, so if they like your guild, they can then see if there is a recruiter online and what their name is, so they can send them a PM and start the recruiting process, ask questions to get to know the person and then send them to the guild website to fill out an application or direct them to another guild if they are not a match for their guild.

    So it's just a good option to show recruiters names via looking for guild tab to help people get in contact with your recruiters, who then take over the process.


    This post was edited by Kilsin at March 10, 2015 11:25 AM PDT
    • 59 posts
    March 10, 2015 10:23 AM PDT
    Kilsin said:
    Wandidar said:
    Kilsin said:
    DJay said:

    Totally agree that all you need is basic tools to support a guild to benefit the game and the list you gave is pretty in depth.

     

    Something I would like to talk about here is the guild search/recruitment tool.  Fundamentally this has been done to poor effect in most games.  What I would like to see a comprehensive tool that allows guilds to post exactly what their looking for and fill out a full description of the guild to allow players to refine their search.

    Search Functions:

    Guild type: Raiding, Social, Casual, PVP

    Class Needs

    Age Group

    Prime time Hours or Raid Hours

     

    These are key indicators that will best help players identify possible recruits/guilds.  On top of this there needs to be a system in place that will remove guilds from the list based off activity.

    The feature that Zandil and I spoke about above incorporates these things that you listed above, it really was a great way to find the best guild for you and your play style and time zone but I think we can add more like apply country tags etc.

    Most guilds will have a recruit message that shows in a window to say whatever they want about their guild, the +18 tag or family friendly tag or raiding or multiple tags, where they came from, how their guild started, what they want to achieve etc. so that is also very helpful.

     

    One thing I would love to see come back from EQ - the notion of having to actually apply and earn your way into a guild... because name was critically important - yours AND your guild's...  Because by having a guild tag on, you represented your guild.

     

    In my guild - you needed to apply - and you had to have a sponsor within the guild.  A sponsor was a member in good standing who would vouch for you.  Apps with sponsors were tagged and were on probation for a month.  In that month, you had to gain 15 positive votes from members including 3 officer votes.  Most guild members would not vote for you if they did not group with you.   Officers definitely would not vote for you if they did not group with you - AND talk to you for a while.  I was an officer and I would spend an entire night with an app grouping, talking, etc... and then continue to chat with them over the course of at least a couple weeks before I would vote for them.  Getting in the guild MEANT something.

     

    NOW - I know that what I'm talking about goes beyond any guild system implemented in the game... it is just me sort of wistfully thinking back and hoping Pantheon ends up being THAT game - meaning "the MMO where people start caring about their name and their reputation again"

    That is completely up to the guild but I am huge on the application process via a guild website (management discussion whether to allow app to go through) 1 month trial period (with sponsor and management watching) then a final decision made by management to whether allow full membership or reject them on fair grounds and wish them luck while sending them on their way.

    It sounds harsh but it has to be for guilds to work properly, a lot of people put a lot of time and effort into creating, maintaining and managing them to help others enjoy their gaming, you cannot let people in that will ruin that.

    Why not evolve past the mindset of 3rd party websites to handle applications and simply put them in the game ?  You can put a simple application form builder baked into the guild system that will allow recruiters to update, review, and answer the applications directly from within game or via the website.  Obviously the cross game/website part would be the more expensive integration, but simply having it in game would be a huge step in the right direction.  This is an area of development that hasn't really moved past where it was 10 years ago and one of the most frustrating things about current day mmo's.  Recruiting for a guild in world of warcraft boils down to spamming chat and hoping people joins your website.  Its a process that makes me wanna pluck my eyes out of my head and creates hurdles for a process that should be simple.

     

    I search for a guild that raids during my hours and needs my class.  I review my options based off their pitches via an in game minipage/guildpage and then apply directly from the same interface.  Guild recruits review and communicate with me.  

     

    Lastly when i join a guild it tags my guild history allowing guilds to see who I was with and how long.  This way guilds can do background checks.

     

    You put these rather simple systems in not only have you revolutionized guild recruitment, but you reinforce that reputation matters.

    • 206 posts
    March 10, 2015 11:27 AM PDT

    Lots of great post and Kilsin is doing a great job on gathering ideas for a very important tool used by guilds in order to manage the community they are invested in. I'm playing AA along with a few other games and that games UI for guilds is terrible! Espicially for a game release just recently. It's embarrassing.

    • 357 posts
    March 10, 2015 1:00 PM PDT

    I would like to see the tribute system extended to guilds. so i can choose to tribute an item either for myself or for my guild. allowing the guild leader to choose when to activate/deactivate the tribute buffs.

    • 295 posts
    March 10, 2015 3:19 PM PDT

    I would like to have some kind of voting/poll option added because not everyone will go to the guild website for elections/Application voting.  If this is done there would need to be various tiers of voting.  The last guild I was a member of had elections for Officers and GL once a year.  If someone wanted to step up or step down they were able to.  Normally one or two officers would stay as an officer to maintain continuity for a couple of months and then they would become normal members.

    • Moderator
    • 8593 posts
    March 10, 2015 5:37 PM PDT
    DJay said:
    Kilsin said:
    Wandidar said:
    Kilsin said:
    DJay said:

    Totally agree that all you need is basic tools to support a guild to benefit the game and the list you gave is pretty in depth.

     

    Something I would like to talk about here is the guild search/recruitment tool.  Fundamentally this has been done to poor effect in most games.  What I would like to see a comprehensive tool that allows guilds to post exactly what their looking for and fill out a full description of the guild to allow players to refine their search.

    Search Functions:

    Guild type: Raiding, Social, Casual, PVP

    Class Needs

    Age Group

    Prime time Hours or Raid Hours

     

    These are key indicators that will best help players identify possible recruits/guilds.  On top of this there needs to be a system in place that will remove guilds from the list based off activity.

    The feature that Zandil and I spoke about above incorporates these things that you listed above, it really was a great way to find the best guild for you and your play style and time zone but I think we can add more like apply country tags etc.

    Most guilds will have a recruit message that shows in a window to say whatever they want about their guild, the +18 tag or family friendly tag or raiding or multiple tags, where they came from, how their guild started, what they want to achieve etc. so that is also very helpful.

     

    One thing I would love to see come back from EQ - the notion of having to actually apply and earn your way into a guild... because name was critically important - yours AND your guild's...  Because by having a guild tag on, you represented your guild.

     

    In my guild - you needed to apply - and you had to have a sponsor within the guild.  A sponsor was a member in good standing who would vouch for you.  Apps with sponsors were tagged and were on probation for a month.  In that month, you had to gain 15 positive votes from members including 3 officer votes.  Most guild members would not vote for you if they did not group with you.   Officers definitely would not vote for you if they did not group with you - AND talk to you for a while.  I was an officer and I would spend an entire night with an app grouping, talking, etc... and then continue to chat with them over the course of at least a couple weeks before I would vote for them.  Getting in the guild MEANT something.

     

    NOW - I know that what I'm talking about goes beyond any guild system implemented in the game... it is just me sort of wistfully thinking back and hoping Pantheon ends up being THAT game - meaning "the MMO where people start caring about their name and their reputation again"

    That is completely up to the guild but I am huge on the application process via a guild website (management discussion whether to allow app to go through) 1 month trial period (with sponsor and management watching) then a final decision made by management to whether allow full membership or reject them on fair grounds and wish them luck while sending them on their way.

    It sounds harsh but it has to be for guilds to work properly, a lot of people put a lot of time and effort into creating, maintaining and managing them to help others enjoy their gaming, you cannot let people in that will ruin that.

    Why not evolve past the mindset of 3rd party websites to handle applications and simply put them in the game ?  You can put a simple application form builder baked into the guild system that will allow recruiters to update, review, and answer the applications directly from within game or via the website.  Obviously the cross game/website part would be the more expensive integration, but simply having it in game would be a huge step in the right direction.  This is an area of development that hasn't really moved past where it was 10 years ago and one of the most frustrating things about current day mmo's.  Recruiting for a guild in world of warcraft boils down to spamming chat and hoping people joins your website.  Its a process that makes me wanna pluck my eyes out of my head and creates hurdles for a process that should be simple.

     

    I search for a guild that raids during my hours and needs my class.  I review my options based off their pitches via an in game minipage/guildpage and then apply directly from the same interface.  Guild recruits review and communicate with me.  

     

    Lastly when i join a guild it tags my guild history allowing guilds to see who I was with and how long.  This way guilds can do background checks.

     

    You put these rather simple systems in not only have you revolutionized guild recruitment, but you reinforce that reputation matters.

    Simply because I don't think we will have the resources to give to a system like that, let alone implement it plus most guilds are communities within themselves and have been established for years, so administrative process is something they like to manage themselves on their own website, which is also a way to attract new members to visit and gather information, read policies and guidelines, raid strats, Voip info etc.

    I don't think it has evolved because it serves it's purpose on 3rd party sites. I will speak to the team and see what is available to us.

    I really like your guild tagging idea, that would allow the freedom to join guilds but show a detailed history to show how loyal you are and if you have come from any rival or undesirable guilds, it would make guild choices matter, which I think for a game like this would be really well suited.

    • Moderator
    • 8593 posts
    March 10, 2015 5:44 PM PDT
    Gawd said:

    I would like to see the tribute system extended to guilds. so i can choose to tribute an item either for myself or for my guild. allowing the guild leader to choose when to activate/deactivate the tribute buffs.

    I will have to speak to the team about this to find out more info as I know there is a set vision for this system and I am not sure it is meant to be shared or whether it would be appropriate to let guilds buff themselves in this way. We want to keep guilds as a place for people to join together without taking away from the gameplay or mechanics/features meant for characters/groups.

    • Moderator
    • 8593 posts
    March 10, 2015 5:47 PM PDT
    Sogotp said:

    I would like to have some kind of voting/poll option added because not everyone will go to the guild website for elections/Application voting.  If this is done there would need to be various tiers of voting.  The last guild I was a member of had elections for Officers and GL once a year.  If someone wanted to step up or step down they were able to.  Normally one or two officers would stay as an officer to maintain continuity for a couple of months and then they would become normal members.

    If guilds want to have a voting system then that is great, I will see if others want to build on this idea before adding it as I know myself that it is important to have a 3rd party website/forums for guilds and it is important that guild members visit the site for a lot of information that cannot be displayed or communicated properly in game, like guidelines, raid strats, events etc.


    This post was edited by Kilsin at March 11, 2015 6:00 AM PDT
    • 3199 posts
    March 11, 2015 12:26 AM PDT
    Wellspring said:

    Great post, and I agree. There doesn't need to be any guild exp, levels, guild wide buffs ect. These artificial incentives are not what makes guilds great. Being in a guild is about being part of a community who you enjoy playing with.

     

    I really like what features you have listed. If the game had all of those, the guild system would be awesome. I especially like the idea of the dkp counter included in the guilds window. It seems simple, but it will make it so you don't have to go to an external website every time you need to see someone's dkp.

     

    Guild Calendar is also a good idea. But it maybe more complicated to implement, I have no idea.

     

     

    Usually ends up with about 3 or 4 dedicated individuals trying to do all the crafting quests, adventure quests to level up the guild.    Gets a bit tedious after awhile.....been there done that!  lol

    • 337 posts
    March 11, 2015 8:46 AM PDT

    One thing, as a raid leader, that i would love to see copied from WoW (you won't see post that very often) is the AFK check feature for raids.

    • Moderator
    • 8593 posts
    March 11, 2015 9:00 AM PDT
    Reht said:

    One thing, as a raid leader, that i would love to see copied from WoW (you won't see post that very often) is the AFK check feature for raids.

    We actually had that in VG too and I agree it is a must have!

    /readycheck was a command a raid leader or raid officer could type to pop a window up in their screen with a list of all members in the raid, the members would all get a ready box pop in front of them and they had to click accept or deny, if they failed to click any after 15-30 seconds, it would automatically tag them as Afk.

    • 501 posts
    March 11, 2015 11:51 AM PDT

    EQ2's permission's tab  (note this was not everything , there were other widows for other features, such as guild housing, and more on bank permissions than those  listed here):


    This post was edited by Zarriya at March 11, 2015 5:55 PM PDT
    • 172 posts
    November 1, 2015 8:51 PM PST

    I am really impressed with the stuff in this thread.  Very good topic Kilsin.  I realize I am a bit late. I took a bit of a hiatus in the middle of the year.

    • 1228 posts
    December 4, 2015 7:15 AM PST

    Haseno said:

    Multiple guilds was horrible. I despised it in Elder Scrolls Online. So much in-fact, it was one of my main reasons for leaving.

     

    Same here. NO MULTIPLE GUILDS.

    • 90 posts
    February 18, 2016 6:25 AM PST

    I can tell Kilsin has put a lot of thought into guild implementation and I agree with just about everything he listed. I don't like the idea of guild levels or perks; a guild's reputation should be established through its actions not by the in-game bonuses you get for joining. A strong guild UI is the most important thing to nail here in my opinion. I would like to see some innovations brought to guilds though. Being able to move guilds away from dedicated websites to in-game interfaces would be a boon.

    • Moderator
    • 8593 posts
    February 18, 2016 7:08 AM PST

    I actually created this when I was a community member, before I joined the team, but having been a guild leader and raid leader for many years in VG, it is something I am very passionate about, so hopefully we can use as much of this as possible to help create a useful interface for Pantheon :)

    Please feel free to add to this or discuss any aspect of it, I will continue to update this thread if the interest is there.

    • 1696 posts
    February 18, 2016 7:07 PM PST

    Choosing to be a member of a guild needs to be a decision not taken lightly.  By joining a guild, you are saying that you are willingly putting aside your individual goals and ambitions and taking up the goals and ambitions of the guild.  The needs of the many now outweigh the needs of the one.

    To keep such a decision a serious one, you need to limit being a member of a guild to just one at a time.

    That said, having an in-depth permission system is a necessity.  Having an assignable heirarchy and roles gives players a sense of ownership in a guild and a guild populated with a membership with an active interest in the guild survives longer with far less drama.

    • 1541 posts
    February 18, 2016 11:29 PM PST

    Sorry I started a new thread and didn't know this one existed. Thanks Kilsin for pointing me in the correct direction.

    As a guild leader in other games these are the features I think are essential for easy management of guilds. Note that this is primarily from the perspective of a guild leader / officer and won't really help guild members at all.

    1) Allow us to write scripts (ideally by exposing a public API) that allows us to get a list of all current guild members, whether they are mains or alts, their class and their level. If they are an alt provide a means of finding out which main they belong to. This should then be easy to incorate the information into our guilds website easily so that the work of officers and leaders is reduced.

    2) On raids allow us to start and stop a timer that logs all people on the raid so that it is easy to allocate DKP points and export that data as JSON or (ugh) XML so that we can import it into our own scripts and databases.

    3) Post a message to guild leaders / officers when someone leaves the guild (and if all the officers / leaders are offline at the point the person leaves show it when they next log in) so that leader / officers can remove forum access and voice chat access for that person and so they can also remove their alts from the guild.

    4) Make it easy to form channels for guild use such as class channels (ranger channel, cleric channel etc etc) and make sure they are password protected.

    5) Make a global guild recruitment chat channel for all unguilded people so that guilds don't need to spam public chat channels with recruitment messages.

    • Moderator
    • 8593 posts
    February 19, 2016 1:26 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    Choosing to be a member of a guild needs to be a decision not taken lightly.  By joining a guild, you are saying that you are willingly putting aside your individual goals and ambitions and taking up the goals and ambitions of the guild.  The needs of the many now outweigh the needs of the one.

    To keep such a decision a serious one, you need to limit being a member of a guild to just one at a time.

    That said, having an in-depth permission system is a necessity.  Having an assignable heirarchy and roles gives players a sense of ownership in a guild and a guild populated with a membership with an active interest in the guild survives longer with far less drama.

    Absolutely, I agree and we don't plan on allowing multi-guilds and permissions are high on my list (#2) as they are indeed important for guild management. :)

    • Moderator
    • 8593 posts
    February 19, 2016 1:33 AM PST

    Cromulent said:

    Sorry I started a new thread and didn't know this one existed. Thanks Kilsin for pointing me in the correct direction.

    As a guild leader in other games these are the features I think are essential for easy management of guilds. Note that this is primarily from the perspective of a guild leader / officer and won't really help guild members at all.

    1) Allow us to write scripts (ideally by exposing a public API) that allows us to get a list of all current guild members, whether they are mains or alts, their class and their level. If they are an alt provide a means of finding out which main they belong to. This should then be easy to incorate the information into our guilds website easily so that the work of officers and leaders is reduced.

    2) On raids allow us to start and stop a timer that logs all people on the raid so that it is easy to allocate DKP points and export that data as JSON or (ugh) XML so that we can import it into our own scripts and databases.

    3) Post a message to guild leaders / officers when someone leaves the guild (and if all the officers / leaders are offline at the point the person leaves show it when they next log in) so that leader / officers can remove forum access and voice chat access for that person and so they can also remove their alts from the guild.

    4) Make it easy to form channels for guild use such as class channels (ranger channel, cleric channel etc etc) and make sure they are password protected.

    5) Make a global guild recruitment chat channel for all unguilded people so that guilds don't need to spam public chat channels with recruitment messages.

    No worries at all mate, I am glad you found your way here! :)

    I like your points too, but I am not sure how much information we will allow to be used via API etc. as we don't want DPS and Aggro meters so allowing that type of information may be challenging. Built in timers are a pretty cool idea but not sure we should be applying timers to individuals when guilds can manage their raid attendance aspect pretty easily with DKP etc. Class Chat channels are good one that I think should be in the game even without raiding like they were in VG! Guild recruitment falls under my Guild Management tab/menu as it is also very important.

    • 3199 posts
    February 19, 2016 8:46 AM PST

    Wellspring said:

    Great post, and I agree. There doesn't need to be any guild exp, levels, guild wide buffs ect. These artificial incentives are not what makes guilds great. Being in a guild is about being part of a community who you enjoy playing with.

     

    I really like what features you have listed. If the game had all of those, the guild system would be awesome. I especially like the idea of the dkp counter included in the guilds window. It seems simple, but it will make it so you don't have to go to an external website every time you need to see someone's dkp.

     

    Guild Calendar is also a good idea. But it maybe more complicated to implement, I have no idea.

     

    Indeed have to agree with you here. Guild, family, team.   Work to make the guild great.   Loyalty.   Things that I have seen being lost or set aside in many games these days.   Its all about the shiny, and if you don't get the shiny...guild hop.   Lets bring it back to what it used to be.  :)

    • 1541 posts
    February 22, 2016 2:23 AM PST

    Another thing I'd like to see as a guild leader is worldwide guild invites. I got fed up in other games (and I'm sure my officers did as well) of having to run half way across the world just to invite a new member. It basically meant I had to give up my play time in order to just invite someone to the guild. Or the alternative was that new members had to run to me which meant that people were much less likely to actually do it. Sometimes it took days to find a time when we were both free to do the invite because everyone was in a group and didn't want to leave just to invite someone new to the guild.

    • 531 posts
    February 24, 2016 8:35 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

     


    I like your points too, but I am not sure how much information we will allow to be used via API etc.

    EQ's system was pretty simple you could dump a guild, or a raid, or your inventory to a text file. We had coders set up programs that stripped away all the data we didn't need and then save it in an excel format. We then used that to upload to our DKP site and had it list everyone that way (this was pre EQ DKP) we also had it import the inventory of the guild bankers so people would know what was in it and who to send a tell to in game to get an item.

    As long as we at least have a manual dump to text like EQ for these I would be happy. Being a raid leader and having to manually open up a raid window, and go to an excel sheet every hour and write down everyone still there, those that left etc is a pain and takes you out of the raid/game while you are doing that. A simple text dump once an hour and then doing all the stuff after is much more preferable!