So I have a friend who sort of started MMO's with EQ2, but really started in earnest with WoW. When I mention things like it taking days, a week, whatever - to earn a level, I can very clearly see his visceral "There's a spider crawling up my arm while a cockroach is crawling up my back as I'm trying to shake the scorpion out of my shoes" reaction run across his face.
Quite simply, he sees the world through WoW colored glasses. WoW colored glasses, in this case, means that leveling is viewed as:
- Something you enjoy the first time you do it (as long as it's not too long)
- Something youi dread if you have to do it again (because there is really only one set of content to level through, and you've already done it)
- Something that, beyond experiencing it the first time is really a waste of time because the game "starts at max"
In other words - everything EQ was NOT.
Something odd that WoW colored glasses will never see (they need to be taken off for someone to see and believe):
I remember more than a few times leveling in EQ that I was dreading leveling. Why? Because my very first "dungeon" area had taught me a lesson... and the lesson was this - leveling means leaving content you are really, truly, loving. For me, that first area was Crushbone. I stayed in Crushbone a few days too long - getting nothing out of it, but not wanting to leave it... because I LOVED it and had so much fun there.
That is a feeling you never attain in WoW or any other modern MMO that I have played. In modern MMO's, you are always thrilled to see the ding, because the ding is the only real prize you seek for that level.
It is easy to see how we got from one extreme to the other. When WoW was being worked on, there was a clarion cry for everyone to be able to solo, etc... and there was a mantra of "the game begins at max" that was in effect before the game even launched.
The expectation was set - the expectation was met. Max was and is what matters... your carrot on a stick is the ding.
So how do you go backward? How do you get players back to the point where they not only don't care about leveling - but - at times don't WANT to level? Because there was nothing better than hitting a level that let you go into a dungeon or an area for the first time - AND - nothing worse than hitting a level that ultimatly caused you to leave that dungeon or area that you had invested days or even weeks worth of time (and deaths!) "living" in, learning, etc...
Because, you see, leaving that area was both a positive and a negative in EQ. You were more powerful - and you were moving on to somewhere that would be able to test you in new ways....
But you were not only leaving that place you loved - you were leaving the community you had in that dungeon or area just the night before - for a new commuinity in a new place. When you zoned in, "BUBBA" the warrior - who you only ended up grouping with a few times, but who you chatted with across the zone every night... well, BUBBA might not be there. He might still be back in that old place, or he might be off to his own new place. A new place that was different than yours - because in Norrath, there wasn't just ONE to choose from.
For me, the answer is deeper than "create compelling content" - for me, the answer goes to something that existed in EQ that it sounds like Brad is hesitant about... that will need to be accomodated in some other way.
For me, the answer was that those dungeons, areas, whatever... were places that you made deliberate choices to go to - likely over a few days or nights of thought - with the intention of staying there for a while...
And this often amounted to some new dungeon that you would strive to find camps in (camping is the part Brad seems hesitant about) every night - first starting at the top, then, gradually, working your way down into deeper and deeper.
I believe that if "camp" dungeons aren't plentiful across the leveling curve - then something else that will be "places players pick to spend days or weeks at" will need to take those dungeon's places.
Because this was a prime component of so many things:
- It made the world feel large... because you were picking one place of many to go spend your next 5 levels over the next 3 to 5 weeks, at the expense of not seeing those other places...
- It really engrained in you that you were getting more powerful over those days and weeks... because over that time you would, each day, go past something that gave you fits just the night before - that was now not a threat to you (or as much of a threat) - on your way to new danger... which is different than leaving a zone every night and never returning to it. Having to pass the old stuff on your way to the new was an important component to feeling stronger.
- It made you part of a community that you were loathe to give up... when indeed the time came to give it up and move on.
And all of that combined meant what I said above - that leveling became both a desire and a dread. Leveling meant getting on to something new, at the expense of leaving something dear behind.
And that, friends, is the difference between leveling - and leveling. It is the chasm between "the game begins at max, and levels are a barrier to that" - AND - "The game is a world, and just like in real life - moving to something new means leaving something old behind."
I hope that the devs are able to accomplish this - that leveling will entail deliberate choices to move to specific places within the game world for extended periods of days... Knowing that in so doing you are foregoing options to see other places on level... because getting to those other places is not trivial... that when you are in those places the content is such that it drives and forms community that you won't want to give up when the time comes to move on to someplace new.
Thanks for reading all - and I apologize for this being so long.
I also agree that the only thing that has worried me about this game is that it might not include the part that made EQ1 special. Camping in areas for multiple levels while getting to know people and the area. The ability to group with people for short/long periods of times created an excellent community. People learned how to play their class well and also learned how to be a part of a team. Most players today that I group up with don't know how to work together and adapt to situations.
Forgive and please correct me if Im wrong
But I was thinking that Brads statement about "No camps" was more directed to not having to camp a certain mob for hours and hours for a certain drop. Camps as far as sitting in a dungeon is going to be a thing...at least I hope so, that would be a definite deal breaker for me.
Couldn't agree with you more Wandidar. And to add on to what you said, I really like how in EQ raiding wasn't a "thing" in the same way it is today. When I played EQ, I felt like the devs just tried to make a realistic world, and we just played in it. They created different areas and put down meaningful monsters. At the bottom of a dungeon, they thought to put a dragon. In the planes of reality, they stuck some gods. And you would just go out and explore; you would find some monster, and be like, "Can that be killed? Let's try." It might take ten people, it might take a hundred. Nobody had any idea until it was done. This kind of experience added to the feeling of discovery. I hope in making pantheon, they take this into account. It sounds like they are thinking more along those lines as Brad Mcquaid answered a relevant question with, "There will be no specific number of people required for a raid;" still, on the other hand, having a specific number at all kind of defeats the purpose. I hear what he said next about worry about people just rolling in in huge numbers to crush a mob, but honestly, if hundred people want to amass to kill a single mob for a single piece of loot, go ahead and let them. That means that everywhere else in the world, I am free to hunt without competition.
Sevens said:
Forgive and please correct me if Im wrong
But I was thinking that Brads statement about "No camps" was more directed to not having to camp a certain mob for hours and hours for a certain drop. Camps as far as sitting in a dungeon is going to be a thing...at least I hope so, that would be a definite deal breaker for me.
I don't get that though, that whole element brings a huge huge portion of MMO to it. WoW for example, anyone can basically kill and get an item. This is what made epics and other items so great. That you had to work your way for them. If were all so concerned with the 100 other posts about leveling slowly, why do we not want to have to camp for various things?
Gelax said:
i would rather have less lvls but more meaningfull lvls so when you ding it actually means something.
slower lvls,less lvls = more time to play current content / smaller gap between people you can group up with.
I agree and disagree. Here me out. :D I think we should have more levels and less significant levels, but also a great range of playability for content. The reason is we both want getting to 50 to mean something, and we want it to be an absolute challenge. However, if we have say 10 levels, and it took one year to get to 50 in EQ original (and you want that same experience or greater), than that means it takes over a month to gain a level. People, even us hardcore veterans, will become disillusioned with that timeframe. Now I think 50 levels for a year is fine, but if we wanted to have it take say 2 years to get to max then we could add 50 more levels and still maintain the same rate of progress. It doesn't really matter what you put in front of a player. It could be a carrot, or a piece of carrot, so long as something is there. Look at diablo 3 and there paragon system.
@Sevens - Brad sort of intimated that he wasn't fond of the "go sit somewhere and kill stuff" mode of play. He didn't say it wouldn't be in the game (in fact said there would be some of that) - but I'm not expecting tons of it.
@Rivacom - people use the term "emergent gameplay" all the time. Well, one of the "emergent" things spawned by fighting your way down into a dungeon to get to a camp that you would sit in and work for a while... was community. EQ had an "emergent community" that was formed - at least in part - due to the time spent sitting somewhere in game together killing stuff... it's not what you are after - it's who you are with. Camping allowed for more down time, type at each other in the chat box communication than running through a dungeon did... and while we have voice coms today - lots of people don't want to use them all the time... I know I don't.
Wandidar said:
I had friends who I wasn't able to play with because they were higher than me - but eventually I caught up (they could only level so much - then they hit cap!)
In the meantime, we were in the same guild - and I formed friendships with people who were my level.
Yeah, I can have more than one circle of friends...If I cant play with my friends at launch because there is no fast travel, Great!! I will make more. If I cant play with my friends because of a level gap...Great!! I will make more. Soon me and ALL my friends new and old will be max level and able to traverse the globe easily so now I just have lots and lots of friends
On a historical note, your pun is something of an inherited consequence of overusing the word level in D&D.
Best stated in the Order of the Stick #12: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html
CelevinMoongleam said:
On a historical note, your pun is something of an inherited consequence of overusing the word level in D&D.
Best stated in the Order of the Stick #12: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html
lol...
CelevinMoongleam said:
On a historical note, your pun is something of an inherited consequence of overusing the word level in D&D.
Best stated in the Order of the Stick #12: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html
LOL - very nice :)
Wandidar said:So I have a friend who sort of started MMO's with EQ2, but really started in earnest with WoW. When I mention things like it taking days, a week, whatever - to earn a level, I can very clearly see his visceral "There's a spider crawling up my arm while a cockroach is crawling up my back as I'm trying to shake the scorpion out of my shoes" reaction run across his face.
Quite simply, he sees the world through WoW colored glasses. WoW colored glasses, in this case, means that leveling is viewed as:
- Something you enjoy the first time you do it (as long as it's not too long)
- Something youi dread if you have to do it again (because there is really only one set of content to level through, and you've already done it)
- Something that, beyond experiencing it the first time is really a waste of time because the game "starts at max"
In other words - everything EQ was NOT.
Something odd that WoW colored glasses will never see (they need to be taken off for someone to see and believe):
I remember more than a few times leveling in EQ that I was dreading leveling. Why? Because my very first "dungeon" area had taught me a lesson... and the lesson was this - leveling means leaving content you are really, truly, loving. For me, that first area was Crushbone. I stayed in Crushbone a few days too long - getting nothing out of it, but not wanting to leave it... because I LOVED it and had so much fun there.
That is a feeling you never attain in WoW or any other modern MMO that I have played. In modern MMO's, you are always thrilled to see the ding, because the ding is the only real prize you seek for that level.
It is easy to see how we got from one extreme to the other. When WoW was being worked on, there was a clarion cry for everyone to be able to solo, etc... and there was a mantra of "the game begins at max" that was in effect before the game even launched.
The expectation was set - the expectation was met. Max was and is what matters... your carrot on a stick is the ding.
So how do you go backward? How do you get players back to the point where they not only don't care about leveling - but - at times don't WANT to level? Because there was nothing better than hitting a level that let you go into a dungeon or an area for the first time - AND - nothing worse than hitting a level that ultimatly caused you to leave that dungeon or area that you had invested days or even weeks worth of time (and deaths!) "living" in, learning, etc...
Because, you see, leaving that area was both a positive and a negative in EQ. You were more powerful - and you were moving on to somewhere that would be able to test you in new ways....
But you were not only leaving that place you loved - you were leaving the community you had in that dungeon or area just the night before - for a new commuinity in a new place. When you zoned in, "BUBBA" the warrior - who you only ended up grouping with a few times, but who you chatted with across the zone every night... well, BUBBA might not be there. He might still be back in that old place, or he might be off to his own new place. A new place that was different than yours - because in Norrath, there wasn't just ONE to choose from.
For me, the answer is deeper than "create compelling content" - for me, the answer goes to something that existed in EQ that it sounds like Brad is hesitant about... that will need to be accomodated in some other way.
For me, the answer was that those dungeons, areas, whatever... were places that you made deliberate choices to go to - likely over a few days or nights of thought - with the intention of staying there for a while...
And this often amounted to some new dungeon that you would strive to find camps in (camping is the part Brad seems hesitant about) every night - first starting at the top, then, gradually, working your way down into deeper and deeper.
I believe that if "camp" dungeons aren't plentiful across the leveling curve - then something else that will be "places players pick to spend days or weeks at" will need to take those dungeon's places.
Because this was a prime component of so many things:
- It made the world feel large... because you were picking one place of many to go spend your next 5 levels over the next 3 to 5 weeks, at the expense of not seeing those other places...
- It really engrained in you that you were getting more powerful over those days and weeks... because over that time you would, each day, go past something that gave you fits just the night before - that was now not a threat to you (or as much of a threat) - on your way to new danger... which is different than leaving a zone every night and never returning to it. Having to pass the old stuff on your way to the new was an important component to feeling stronger.
- It made you part of a community that you were loathe to give up... when indeed the time came to give it up and move on.
And all of that combined meant what I said above - that leveling became both a desire and a dread. Leveling meant getting on to something new, at the expense of leaving something dear behind.
And that, friends, is the difference between leveling - and leveling. It is the chasm between "the game begins at max, and levels are a barrier to that" - AND - "The game is a world, and just like in real life - moving to something new means leaving something old behind."
I hope that the devs are able to accomplish this - that leveling will entail deliberate choices to move to specific places within the game world for extended periods of days... Knowing that in so doing you are foregoing options to see other places on level... because getting to those other places is not trivial... that when you are in those places the content is such that it drives and forms community that you won't want to give up when the time comes to move on to someplace new.
Thanks for reading all - and I apologize for this being so long.
Another aspect of this that just occurred to me... within those dungeons, etc... you eventually got to "be someone's hero" - and that was something else you would give up when you left that place for your "somewhere new."
What I mean is this - when you got to the point where you had mastered some segment of the dungeon, there were always other people in the dungeon trying to master those places... and things can and would go wrong for them. You might be in the dungeon waiting for a group, or heading back up out of the dungeon to camp for the night - whatever - when disaster befell those people...
And so you would jump in and help them out. You would be their hero. Being the hero for other players is fun and rewarding.
This too was an aspect that made leveling an angst filled thing. Leaving that dungeon meant giving up the opportunity to be a hero for a little while - at least until you got deep enough in your "somewhere new" to be that guy (or girl!) again.
Sevens said:
Wandidar said:
I had friends who I wasn't able to play with because they were higher than me - but eventually I caught up (they could only level so much - then they hit cap!)
In the meantime, we were in the same guild - and I formed friendships with people who were my level.
Yeah, I can have more than one circle of friends...If I cant play with my friends at launch because there is no fast travel, Great!! I will make more. If I cant play with my friends because of a level gap...Great!! I will make more. Soon me and ALL my friends new and old will be max level and able to traverse the globe easily so now I just have lots and lots of friends
Even outside the guild you made friends. I could belong to guild X, but maybe had friends in Guild X, Y , Z. Most players in the earlier MMO's were not complete a holes to each other. So you actually had players in your friends list.
Yup - In fact, you made at least a few friends outside of some dungeon - when you arrived there nekkid... and someone else was sitting there, also nekkid...
And one of you would say: "So.... you died??"
And off you went on a shared adventure to recover from your own separate deaths... which sometimes lead to grouping after the recovery, etc...
Personally I would rather have Item/Skill based Leveling instead of the DnD style "Levels 1-20+"
Instead of Pegging Character progression to the standard Level, I would rather have the need to master a spell/combat art and grow into armor/weapons/jewelry (and let them Level like a living symbiote).