Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Pre level cap raiding

    • 48 posts
    March 3, 2015 5:29 AM PST
    So a question for the devs as well as our awesome community to discuss. Do we desire this? Is it viable? I know they discussed gear having meaning and not being throwaway but how much gear from a level 30 raid would still be viable at the level cap. I hate to use endgame because that's not the look the devs want according to the newest round table, however to play devils advocate do you as the community see the level cap as endgame? So I guess the question is sort of twofold.
    • 201 posts
    March 3, 2015 5:55 AM PST

    I think unless you take out levels, the cap will always be endgame.  And honestly, that's how MMORPG's operate,  there are a few who have tried to be skilled based or talent based / by removing levels. 

    • 318 posts
    March 3, 2015 6:19 AM PST

    The only pre level cap raid I've personally ever seen done well was in EQ1. Where there was a dragon that you could only attack if you were below level 51 I believe. Which could drop a red dragon scale for the warrior epic iirc.

     

    That raid was particularly fun during times when the level cap was 65 or higher. If you were a new player leveling up, you wanted to at least do that dungeon once before you were too high level. Or if you needed a drop, you had to do it multiple times, or since the item was tradeable you could buy it from another player.

     

    It was nice to get a glimpse of how fun raiding could be at level 50, when you knew the real raiding in PoP didn't start until 60s or whatever.


    This post was edited by Wellspring at March 17, 2015 8:38 PM PDT
    • 753 posts
    March 3, 2015 8:28 AM PST

    EQ2 had pre-cap raiding. 

     

    The value of this from a gear perspective I think potentially depends on a couple of different factors:

     

    1)  What is the leveling curve?  Do you do a level 20 raid to get uber level 20 raid loot if you are going to be level 50 next week?  You might do it for kicks.  But if you are level 20 and you won't be level 25 for 6 weeks?  Now that item has more value. 

     

    2)  What is the rate of turnover on gear?  In EQ, you might still be wearing an earring you got at level 30 when you were level 60.  Loot upgrades across the leveling curve weren't raining from the sky.  You didn't get 2, 5, 10, 50 chances in an evening to upgrade your pants.   Such events were relatively rare - so that when they came along, you were excited, rather than thinking "hmm... nah, you take them... another 20 will drop before we are done tonight."

     

    So ultimately - those boil down to one real question:  How long will the gear be valuable?  The longer it's perceived value, the more desirable doing that pre-cap raid will be.

     

    Having said that - you could give such raids other rewards besides gear with stats that could remain valuable for long periods of time (even perhaps forever).

     

    -  A weight reduction bag

    - A clicky illusion buff (that had faction impact) -  "Walk amongst the dragons!"

    - Level appropriate abilities / skills

    - A key component for a dungeon

     

    Those sorts of things.

    • 44 posts
    March 3, 2015 8:50 AM PST

    pre level cap raiding is a must with a slow progression rate. i like my gear upgrades to be rare (meaningfull loot) and last a long time before i need to replace them again.

     

    there shouldn't be no real engame. endgame should be what you make of it, even if you are lvl20 or lvl50.

     

    for some odd reason i would like to see a low lvl cap with a slow progression rate so that lvling actually means something.

     

    edit: i also dislike complete gear sets, i'd rather have bits and pieces that i need to puzzle with myself. don't rly care if my toon has mixed colors of armor etc..

    i also dislike appearance slots :-)


    This post was edited by Gelax at March 17, 2015 8:40 PM PDT
    • 48 posts
    March 3, 2015 9:25 AM PST
    Wandidar said:

    EQ2 had pre-cap raiding. 

     

    The value of this from a gear perspective I think potentially depends on a couple of different factors:

     

    1)  What is the leveling curve?  Do you do a level 20 raid to get uber level 20 raid loot if you are going to be level 50 next week?  You might do it for kicks.  But if you are level 20 and you won't be level 25 for 6 weeks?  Now that item has more value. 

     

    2)  What is the rate of turnover on gear?  In EQ, you might still be wearing an earring you got at level 30 when you were level 60.  Loot upgrades across the leveling curve weren't raining from the sky.  You didn't get 2, 5, 10, 50 chances in an evening to upgrade your pants.   Such events were relatively rare - so that when they came along, you were excited, rather than thinking "hmm... nah, you take them... another 20 will drop before we are done tonight."

     

    So ultimately - those boil down to one real question:  How long will the gear be valuable?  The longer it's perceived value, the more desirable doing that pre-cap raid will be.

     

    Having said that - you could give such raids other rewards besides gear with stats that could remain valuable for long periods of time (even perhaps forever).

     

    -  A weight reduction bag

    - A clicky illusion buff (that had faction impact) -  "Walk amongst the dragons!"

    - Level appropriate abilities / skills

    - A key component for a dungeon

     

    Those sorts of things.


    I totally agree leveling that takes a while makes raids viable and worthwhile. Also item deflation matters( ie does the level 30 item still represent a significant item that I don't really need to change). Another idea is maybe a great item for one slot for each class might drop in 5 raids spanning from say level 20 to 50 so that by the time you complete the level 50 raid you have a full set if you got the drops. You could almost in sense make raiding a viable way to level and socialize.
    • 154 posts
    March 3, 2015 9:44 AM PST

    I love the idea of pre-cap raids. When Brad mentioned it I got supper excited. I played EQ for years and numerous other MMORPGs but I have never raided because I never reached max level. I really like mid game content and ended up with a character in the 50's and a whole bunch in the 20-30's but I would love to be able to try a raid as a bunch of different alts. It would completely change the experience but it would not limit that to someone who has the time to get multiple characters to max level. As far as the gear goes I would expect raid gear from level 30 to take you till at least 40-50. I mean I was wearing some pretty shitty gear in EQ in my 40's lol.

    • 383 posts
    March 3, 2015 10:31 AM PST
    Wandidar said:

    EQ2 had pre-cap raiding. 

     

    The value of this from a gear perspective I think potentially depends on a couple of different factors:

     

    1)  What is the leveling curve?  Do you do a level 20 raid to get uber level 20 raid loot if you are going to be level 50 next week?  You might do it for kicks.  But if you are level 20 and you won't be level 25 for 6 weeks?  Now that item has more value. 

     

    2)  What is the rate of turnover on gear?  In EQ, you might still be wearing an earring you got at level 30 when you were level 60.  Loot upgrades across the leveling curve weren't raining from the sky.  You didn't get 2, 5, 10, 50 chances in an evening to upgrade your pants.   Such events were relatively rare - so that when they came along, you were excited, rather than thinking "hmm... nah, you take them... another 20 will drop before we are done tonight."

     

    So ultimately - those boil down to one real question:  How long will the gear be valuable?  The longer it's perceived value, the more desirable doing that pre-cap raid will be.

     

    Having said that - you could give such raids other rewards besides gear with stats that could remain valuable for long periods of time (even perhaps forever).

     

    -  A weight reduction bag

    - A clicky illusion buff (that had faction impact) -  "Walk amongst the dragons!"

    - Level appropriate abilities / skills

    - A key component for a dungeon

     

    Those sorts of things.

    Quoted for truth... Lots can be hand from a lower level raid if done right. I didn't like the way the Lady Vox was handled. I would like it if it was story or lore that made you de-level if you were significantly higher than the intended target for the raid. This way new and old players alike could participate!

     

    And as long as we keep that leveling curve nice and slow and gear drops very rare... these kinds of things will be very popular!

     

    The last thing I want to add about gear is the fact that gear didn't make the player it only improved small aspects of the player. Bigger mana/health pools. The skills of the player made the player so that's why we got away with wearing level 30 gear sometimes at 50 etc.


    This post was edited by Niien at March 3, 2015 11:18 AM PST
    • 44 posts
    March 3, 2015 10:32 AM PST

    in EQ2 i didnt start raiding untill after 50 when the Desert of Flames expansion came out. I regret never beeing able to/knowing about the low lvl raid content you could do. i however did some of that low lvl raid content while mentoring down but it wasn't the same as it could have been would i have done it at the appropriate lvl.

    • 118 posts
    March 3, 2015 11:20 AM PST

    I always lamented that I had leveled up before fighting Lady Vox.  The solution for me would be an options check-box that prevents any experience gain.  I used such a feature extensively in Anarchy Online to prevent myself from out-leveling the cap in the Temple of the Winds.  I doubt Brad would use level caps for non-raid dungeons, but I would still like to have such a feature.

    • 308 posts
    March 3, 2015 1:55 PM PST

    Personally, i am ambivalent to pre level cap raiding unless the raids are close to level cap.  If implemented ala EQ1, i think it's going to be too problematical to do unless you add a vox-like mechanic to prevent higher levels from farming it for sell-able gear or if you implement a community event raid where it automatically adds you to a raid when you enter the area or gives you personal loot if you hit (like WoW world raids and no, i am advocating this for level cap raids, just pre level cap raids) and gives you a chance to roll on any gear that drops.

    • 34 posts
    March 3, 2015 2:47 PM PST

    I think pre-cap raids could be a lot of fun, but as Reht said, you would need a mechanic where the mob "flees" if anyone above a certain level gets on its agro list.

     

    If max level was 50, a couple of level 30 raids could be very fun and instrumental in teaching some basic raid coordination to mid level people. As others have said though, gear needs to be meaningful and not easily replaced. That level 30 raid gear should be comparable to level 45+ group gear. With only a couple of mid level raids, its not going to flood the market or trivialize the group content until endgame either.

    • 753 posts
    March 3, 2015 3:26 PM PST
    Mannikin said:

    I think pre-cap raids could be a lot of fun, but as Reht said, you would need a mechanic where the mob "flees" if anyone above a certain level gets on its agro list.

     

    If max level was 50, a couple of level 30 raids could be very fun and instrumental in teaching some basic raid coordination to mid level people. As others have said though, gear needs to be meaningful and not easily replaced. That level 30 raid gear should be comparable to level 45+ group gear. With only a couple of mid level raids, its not going to flood the market or trivialize the group content until endgame either.

    Another option would be to have lower level raid mobs be triggered / player spawned only.  So in order to get the mob to spawn your raid has to accomplish something.  Once spawned, the mob is locked to your raid and only your raid can hit it.  Add someone to your raid who is too high, get help from someone who s too high in the form of buffs, heals, etc... and your mob goes poof.

     

    Just fodder for discussion...

    • 118 posts
    March 3, 2015 3:28 PM PST

    An elegant solution Wandidar.  Don't sell yourself short.

    • 48 posts
    March 3, 2015 4:32 PM PST
    These are all good ideas I am getting tired of hitting thanks! I am amazed at how like minded this community is. Keep on rocking out ideas!
    • 48 posts
    March 3, 2015 4:34 PM PST
    Wandidar said:
    Mannikin said:

    I think pre-cap raids could be a lot of fun, but as Reht said, you would need a mechanic where the mob "flees" if anyone above a certain level gets on its agro list.

     

    If max level was 50, a couple of level 30 raids could be very fun and instrumental in teaching some basic raid coordination to mid level people. As others have said though, gear needs to be meaningful and not easily replaced. That level 30 raid gear should be comparable to level 45+ group gear. With only a couple of mid level raids, its not going to flood the market or trivialize the group content until endgame either.

    Another option would be to have lower level raid mobs be triggered / player spawned only.  So in order to get the mob to spawn your raid has to accomplish something.  Once spawned, the mob is locked to your raid and only your raid can hit it.  Add someone to your raid who is too high, get help from someone who s too high in the form of buffs, heals, etc... and your mob goes poof.

     

    Just fodder for discussion...


    Also if you had a guildie that needed a raid for a quest or a certain item for crafting they could t spawn it and the fight is dynamic enough to allow who ever is there to go at it without losing any of the challenge. That's community building!
    • 671 posts
    March 3, 2015 9:07 PM PST

    OP, the idea that an item has a level, baffles me...  

    I was one of the highest Wizards on my server and helped out on the first raid on Nagafen.  There was only 1 lvl 50, a dozen lvl 40 and the rest of the people were all in their high 36~39. (I was a 46 Wizard.)

     

    The entire raid wiped on Naggy 3 times... took 6 hours and people finally gave up.  The following weekend, we had more people, higher levels, and some better weps. The raid was still 5h long...  and massive wipe in Stone Spider room, when someone aggroed a bunch of beetles from the back. But in the end, Naggy died.

     

    Question to the OP:  What level armor was I wearing...?

     

     

    Secondly,

    Many early Guilds in EQ raided low level dungeon like Nejena, Mistmoor, etc even though those zones had no end boss, per say. And that is what Brad was talking about...  that mid-level dungeons can be uber challenging, and can even offer a raid lvl boss, even if you are lvl 25. The end game wasn't just for lvl 50's...(capped players), most just didn't attempt anything at lower levels, because there was too much risk.

     

    If it takes a year to reach max level...  then Pantheon will have no worries.

     

     

     

    Lastly, most players will not have Armor Sets..! 

    Unless they are wealthy and can commission a set to be made. Otherwise, how are you going to acquire a set of armor..?

    • 724 posts
    March 3, 2015 11:52 PM PST

    Equipment is going to play a good part in how challenging encounters are. With the gear available in early EQ, the dungeons were really dangerous and challenging. So much that you could say groups were actually "raiding" the dungeons, although they weren't max level yet :)

     

    But take the same dungeons with todays defiant gear (which is commonly dropped). This is essentially raid quality gear compared to old standards. A full group of mid-40's or higher equipped with all defiant gear would probably be able to kill Nagafen or Lady Vox in today's EQ.

     

    So...the devs must be very careful about how much power equipment gives.

     

    • 308 posts
    March 4, 2015 7:29 AM PST
    Hieromonk said:

     

    Secondly,

    Many early Guilds in EQ raided low level dungeon like Nejena, Mistmoor, etc even though those zones had no end boss, per say. And that is what Brad was talking about...  that mid-level dungeons can be uber challenging, and can even offer a raid lvl boss, even if you are lvl 25. The end game wasn't just for lvl 50's...(capped players), most just didn't attempt anything at lower levels, because there was too much risk.

     

    This right here is the reason why i am ambivalent to pre-level cap raiding.  If you actually have a guild strong enough to raid, then they can raid named mobs 5-10-15 levels higher for gear that would seem like raid-level gear to them.  There really is no need to build pre-level cap raid bosses if players are provided with the opportunity do other things like that.  Rather than making specific raid bosses, maybe do like they did in Temple of Veeshan/Kael with the armor drops off trash mobs.  My guild spent many a night in Halls of Testing area in ToV and in Kael to farm enough gear to start raiding higher level raids.

    • 671 posts
    March 4, 2015 10:16 AM PST
    Reht said:
    Hieromonk said:

     

    Secondly,

    Many early Guilds in EQ raided low level dungeon like Nejena, Mistmoor, etc even though those zones had no end boss, per say. And that is what Brad was talking about...  that mid-level dungeons can be uber challenging, and can even offer a raid lvl boss, even if you are lvl 25. The end game wasn't just for lvl 50's...(capped players), most just didn't attempt anything at lower levels, because there was too much risk.

     

    This right here is the reason why i am ambivalent to pre-level cap raiding.  If you actually have a guild strong enough to raid, then they can raid named mobs 5-10-15 levels higher for gear that would seem like raid-level gear to them.  There really is no need to build pre-level cap raid bosses if players are provided with the opportunity do other things like that.  Rather than making specific raid bosses, maybe do like they did in Temple of Veeshan/Kael with the armor drops off trash mobs.  My guild spent many a night in Halls of Testing area in ToV and in Kael to farm enough gear to start raiding higher level raids.

     

    Says who..?

     

    Yes, you are correct that you can Raid on a mob 10~ 15 levels higher. That doesn't mean success. That doesn't mean success to the tune of being able to raid that mob again for another 2 weeks, or even where it will show up next. So that in 2 months time, only a handful of people would have rare items off such a mob. Not an entire guild.... lol.

     

    I agree with Brad and can already present many difference variations based on his concept. The closet in EQ, would be the Mini-Boss in old Cazic-Thule..  or the last living Kedge.

     

     

    Veeshan/Halls of Testing were all end-game raids... utterly different than what we are discussing.

    Also, the idea that a guild is going to have raid armor right away, or within the first year will be laughable...   "the game is bigger than you..."

    • 308 posts
    March 4, 2015 3:36 PM PST
    Hieromonk said:
    Reht said:
    Hieromonk said:

     

    Secondly,

    Many early Guilds in EQ raided low level dungeon like Nejena, Mistmoor, etc even though those zones had no end boss, per say. And that is what Brad was talking about...  that mid-level dungeons can be uber challenging, and can even offer a raid lvl boss, even if you are lvl 25. The end game wasn't just for lvl 50's...(capped players), most just didn't attempt anything at lower levels, because there was too much risk.

     

    This right here is the reason why i am ambivalent to pre-level cap raiding.  If you actually have a guild strong enough to raid, then they can raid named mobs 5-10-15 levels higher for gear that would seem like raid-level gear to them.  There really is no need to build pre-level cap raid bosses if players are provided with the opportunity do other things like that.  Rather than making specific raid bosses, maybe do like they did in Temple of Veeshan/Kael with the armor drops off trash mobs.  My guild spent many a night in Halls of Testing area in ToV and in Kael to farm enough gear to start raiding higher level raids.

     

    Says who..?

     

    Yes, you are correct that you can Raid on a mob 10~ 15 levels higher. That doesn't mean success. That doesn't mean success to the tune of being able to raid that mob again for another 2 weeks, or even where it will show up next. So that in 2 months time, only a handful of people would have rare items off such a mob. Not an entire guild.... lol.

     

    I agree with Brad and can already present many difference variations based on his concept. The closet in EQ, would be the Mini-Boss in old Cazic-Thule..  or the last living Kedge.

     

     

    Veeshan/Halls of Testing were all end-game raids... utterly different than what we are discussing.

    Also, the idea that a guild is going to have raid armor right away, or within the first year will be laughable...   "the game is bigger than you..."

     

      

    I was agreeing your statement about raiding group dungeons and trying to explain why specifically designed "Raid" encounters weren't necessary at lower levels, clearly you misunderstood what I was trying to say or I did a poor job of explaining it.  Non max level characters have the option of working on group content that is higher level than they are as raid-style content.  I have no idea what you are alluding to with your 2 weeks comment, I was talking about group named where a raid of lower level characters could farm a spawn(s) and hope for multiple spawns within a single session.  You were focusing solely on the example I was using rather than the mechanic I was trying to discuss.  The point I was trying to make with ToV/Kael and the specific gear I was talking about is that they don't have to make "raids" in order to give guilds/larger groups of lower level characters a reason to band together in groups larger than a single group to raid, they could use higher level group content.   Yes, ToV and Kael were raid zones, but the monsters that dropped that specific gear (ancient silk, tarnished plate, tarnished chain and ancient leather if I remember correctly) were not raid level monsters.  Many guilds used that gear as a pathway to gearing up for raids during Velious.   My guild did that a few nights a week for a couple of months before we started working on the bosses.  we raided groupable content.   This same principle could be easily used for lower level areas.

     

    You thinking that people won't get raid gear in the first year is even more laughable.  I can understand the philosophical desire to do so, but it would be an incredibly poor business decision on their part if they were to tune the game to slow down hardcore players enough to prevent them from getting raid gear within the first year.  They may be able to recreate some of the magic of EQ/VG but they cannot recreate the conditions in era during which EQ exploded and thrived, there are too many competitors out there for people to play if the game is too hard or too grindy (which Brad has already stated he didn’t want Pantheon to be).

    • 238 posts
    March 4, 2015 4:00 PM PST
    Sarim said:

     

    But take the same dungeons with todays defiant gear (which is commonly dropped). This is essentially raid quality gear compared to old standards. A full group of mid-40's or higher equipped with all defiant gear would probably be able to kill Nagafen or Lady Vox in today's EQ.

    My tank merc at level 50 soloed Naggy before I was even in the room...

     

    I was part of the top raiding guilds when EQ2 started and they defiantly had raid content set up for pre 50. We raided all of it we could at the start but it was a complete failure as a concept. Stormhold had some of these sub raids and it was just was very poorly balanced. If people where too high it became a pushover, if people where to low it was impossible regardless of skill. The gear that dropped was all things no one cared for after a few levels so fewer people stopped grinding to show up. Most of the raid instance where converted to group instances very quickly because about every raiding guild had the same results.

    Now this is not to say it could not have been done better. In EQ2 a couple hours raiding meant you became a level or two behind so it just seemed not important enough to stop the push to the top. A slower leveling cure would defiantly improve this.


    The other problems is how to balance an encounter for such wide  range of players. This isn't old school raiding where you can fight a boss for an hour it was all over within a few minutes.

     

    Also whats to stop higher levels from farming these. Sure you can start to LOCK everything down but that's just putting up allot of artificial walls, basically instancing without haveing your own zone.

     

    • 36 posts
    March 6, 2015 8:45 PM PST

    IMO its a waste of development time to put raiding content pre-cap. Most gamers nowadays won't take it seriously because the assumption will be "oh this stuff will be upgraded out of anyways because it isn't "max level".

    • 318 posts
    March 6, 2015 8:59 PM PST
    Strykr619 said:

    IMO its a waste of development time to put raiding content pre-cap. Most gamers nowadays won't take it seriously because the assumption will be "oh this stuff will be upgraded out of anyways because it isn't "max level".

    Unless it's not tied to something that will be upgraded... Like unlocking special skills or permanent stat increases. Or important quest items or crafting materials that cannot be attained anywhere else.

    • 238 posts
    March 6, 2015 10:56 PM PST

    I could see something along the lines of…

    Every group dungeon would have one zone boss that would take maybe 2 groups instead of one to fight. You don’t need to have scripts or fancy mechanics like a normal “raid” it just has more hp or hits harder.

    If it was Crushbone for example you could make Emperor Crush the same level as others but make him extra hard. When your group sees him up you could just ask another random group to team up and win together. No need for anything more.