I know we have spoken about this topic in at least two other threads in the distant past. I didn't want to necro those threads, and I believe this is a little different question/discussion. I'm also not sure if the new team is still moving towards easy mode city teleporters. Though I would like to know if they would consider a stretch goal to NOT implement them.
Basically I would like to know if the team could be bribed to not put them in the game and force us to explore and travel. Some of the most fondest memories I have were traveling between cities, getting lost, killed, and meeting people along the way. I'm totally okay with spells for travel like the druids/wizards, though free travel is just sucking the enthusiasm out of my wife and I. We would be willing to loosen our pocket books a little more if we could make these teleporters not come to fruition.
I'm not sure if this would be considered PTL(Pay to lose) lol ?
It really depends on how the world is laid out, which is still very much a work in progress.
If a trip between starting cities is virtually impossible we will need them; if not, we won't.
Except perhaps a 1 time teleport so you can get together with a friend at your or his starting area.
Community and getting friends together, at least in this case, IMHO trump meaningful travel.
It's really a tight rope we are going to have to navigate quite a bit I think, and that's where building community and bringing friends together conflicts with the other hard core aspects of the game. There may be some tough calls to make. Beta will help reveal the answers.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one burning the midnight oil working haha... to be fair I'm working on fixing an Oracle database that someone dropped data from and they didn't notice for a month... So they don't want to do a restore obviously.
Thank you for the honest answer Aradune. The honest answer is much appreciated even if it's not what we wanted to hear exactly. It's definitely better than the last answer we heard(HOPE!). We understand if a need is there. And of course another question comes to mind with your explanation. Are we thinking that starting cities might not be a part of the whole world and there may be a noobie area or separate starting zone?
Either way we are here because we believe in the team's and your judgement and whatever compromises we have to make we will try to be as understanding as possible and not complain too much while we are playing.
Niien said:
I know we have spoken about this topic in at least two other threads in the distant past. I didn't want to necro those threads, and I believe this is a little different question/discussion. I'm also not sure if the new team is still moving towards easy mode city teleporters. Though I would like to know if they would consider a stretch goal to NOT implement them.
Basically I would like to know if the team could be bribed to not put them in the game and force us to explore and travel. Some of the most fondest memories I have were traveling between cities, getting lost, killed, and meeting people along the way. I'm totally okay with spells for travel like the druids/wizards, though free travel is just sucking the enthusiasm out of my wife and I. We would be willing to loosen our pocket books a little more if we could make these teleporters not come to fruition.
I'm not sure if this would be considered PTL(Pay to lose) lol ?
I applaud this.
However, I don't think they meant every city, etc. Even so, such a system can be curtailed/curbed, so that the city teleporters only activate once every 2 hours... or you have to buy a gem, on the hour.... etc.
Or that public portals have a "ethereal sickness" and that for some time afterwards, you do not have full faculty, etc.
Endless...
I think you are right to speak out, but will find that you're in good company on trivialized public portals. Heck, many of the Fallen will have boats anyways... ; ]
Aradune said:
It really depends on how the world is laid out, which is still very much a work in progress.
If a trip between starting cities is virtually impossible we will need them; if not, we won't.
Except perhaps a 1 time teleport so you can get together with a friend at your or his starting area.
Community and getting friends together, at least in this case, IMHO trump meaningful travel.
It's really a tight rope we are going to have to navigate quite a bit I think, and that's where building community and bringing friends together conflicts with the other hard core aspects of the game. There may be some tough calls to make. Beta will help reveal the answers.
I understand the reason for why you would do this, but why have it be a teleport? I don't know what options you offered in your other games so I don't know if you had something like this but (incoming suggestions from my favorite game) Final Fantasy XI (yes, this was an mmorpg) offered travel via boat, mount and by airship (basically a boat that would double as a plane of sorts and land in water). Using these methods you would board your boat or airship and ride it from city to city or from port to port and you could look over the side and see a representation of the geography you were passing on world map (this would take a few minutes). These options were not really available to starting players (aside from the boat but it wasn't located in a starting city) but if you feel the need to have easy transport this should accomplish it and it could do so while maintaining a sense of worldliness that just jumping from point A to point B instantly would not do.
Edit: In fact, if I may link to a youtube video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zajsmvQgkI8
The ships would come in and leave port in real time. You can see the land as the airship passes over it (and it matches the world map). You can actually see other players on the boats and airship as well but this video was taken quite a while after the game abandoned its core ideas and went down hill so nobody was going to the location the ship was taking this player at the time.
The boat idea sounds interesting, but all I can think of is the death boats in Vanguard they could never get fixed right lol. Drowning crashing etc.
Docka said:
The boat idea sounds interesting, but all I can think of is the death boats in Vanguard they could never get fixed right lol. Drowning crashing etc.
dont you mean the death boats in EQ? in VG the boats functioned nicely i was the proud owner of one of the first thestran Galleons on my server.in over a year of play i never had a problem with the boat.
also i like the idea of having the teleports only at starting cities. and maybe having one starting city for each large landmass. and to the idea that a noob zone was suggested i just say i hope not. i want the noob zone to be a zone the high levels can enter, so we can have fun playing guardians of terminus and helping out new players in trouble. the boats in EQ were nostalgic but unless every starting city has a harbor i think having a wizard network between the starting cities where NPC wizards TL you to the desired city is a better option. i want to be able to join up with guildies when the game starts.
also on another note i hope we can eventually have our own mode of transit. be it a flying mount (max level epic style questline to obtain) or some kind of boat. (along with horses for land travel) and PC wizard and summoner ports to different locations.
Gawd said:
Docka said:
The boat idea sounds interesting, but all I can think of is the death boats in Vanguard they could never get fixed right lol. Drowning crashing etc.
dont you mean the death boats in EQ? in VG the boats functioned nicely i was the proud owner of one of the first thestran Galleons on my server.in over a year of play i never had a problem with the boat.
I think he is talking about the early days when we didn't have player boats and had to catch the ferry/boat service, it was automated and on a set timer but it would frequently crash, sink or just not turn up lol
I liked them a lot and also building/owning them! :)
Niien said:
I know we have spoken about this topic in at least two other threads in the distant past. I didn't want to necro those threads, and I believe this is a little different question/discussion. I'm also not sure if the new team is still moving towards easy mode city teleporters. Though I would like to know if they would consider a stretch goal to NOT implement them.
Basically I would like to know if the team could be bribed to not put them in the game and force us to explore and travel. Some of the most fondest memories I have were traveling between cities, getting lost, killed, and meeting people along the way. I'm totally okay with spells for travel like the druids/wizards, though free travel is just sucking the enthusiasm out of my wife and I. We would be willing to loosen our pocket books a little more if we could make these teleporters not come to fruition.
I'm not sure if this would be considered PTL(Pay to lose) lol ?
Niien,
As you know from my previous posts - I 100% agree with you. I re-asked the 3 cities question for the next Roundtable (although it might have been answered already now). To Aradune's point, travel could have been considered virtually impossible (in today's terms) from Halas to Ak'anon at Everquest launch, but I made that journey and it was one of the most memorable experiences I had in EQ or any other MMO.
I do appreciate it though Aradune that the stance has changed now to at least see how it tests in beta versus ports definitely being in Pantheon, which I still believe is opposite the vision of an old school, challenging, immersive MMO. When you want folks to experience and explore the world through a (forced?) rights of passage system, it is counterproductive to implement a system that allows for instant travel when a person would be otherwise choosing willingly to explore and travel across Terminus because they want to group with a friend in a distant land - and creating an emergent Rights of Passage quest in and of itself.
The ports will single-handidly make the world of Terminus feel much smaller - even a one-time port. However, even in EQ, the world became much smaller after 6-9 months or so. Much like Jezbel said in the "Sting of Death" thread, travel similar to death with cleric resses becomes much more trivialized once wizards/druids etc. obtain access to porting spells; however, you can't replicate that newbie experience of having to explore and experience the world before the ports exist.
*Edit For reference and to avoid getting in the same discussion and not derail this topic, I have linked the original 3 starting cities thread below:
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1108/3-starting-cities/view/post_id/11241
I do appreciate the concern of meeting up with your friends. Most times, I start a game with a bunch of friends and honestly part of the fun is getting together that first time - with everyone trying to cross across zones to meet each other. in Alpha it will be hard, but once we know the zones better and they are passable (even with a couple of deaths on a lvl 1 its not so bad) it is actually fun and part of the challenge.
I don't see the point of "one time" ports so players can start together even with different races. Just allow players to start in whatever starting city they want (within reasonable limits...I don't think an ogre should be allowed in an elven city right away). In such cases there should also be no port if you end up doing those.
Raidan said:
Niien said:
I know we have spoken about this topic in at least two other threads in the distant past. I didn't want to necro those threads, and I believe this is a little different question/discussion. I'm also not sure if the new team is still moving towards easy mode city teleporters. Though I would like to know if they would consider a stretch goal to NOT implement them.
Basically I would like to know if the team could be bribed to not put them in the game and force us to explore and travel. Some of the most fondest memories I have were traveling between cities, getting lost, killed, and meeting people along the way. I'm totally okay with spells for travel like the druids/wizards, though free travel is just sucking the enthusiasm out of my wife and I. We would be willing to loosen our pocket books a little more if we could make these teleporters not come to fruition.
I'm not sure if this would be considered PTL(Pay to lose) lol ?
Niien,
As you know from my previous posts - I 100% agree with you. I re-asked the 3 cities question for the next Roundtable (although it might have been answered already now). To Aradune's point, travel could have been considered virtually impossible (in today's terms) from Halas to Ak'anon at Everquest launch, but I made that journey and it was one of the most memorable experiences I had in EQ or any other MMO.
I do appreciate it though Aradune that the stance has changed now to at least see how it tests in beta versus ports definitely being in Pantheon, which I still believe is opposite the vision of an old school, challenging, immersive MMO. When you want folks to experience and explore the world through a (forced?) rights of passage system, it is counterproductive to implement a system that allows for instant travel when a person would be otherwise choosing willingly to explore and travel across Terminus because they want to group with a friend in a distant land - and creating an emergent Rights of Passage quest in and of itself.
The ports will single-handidly make the world of Terminus feel much smaller - even a one-time port. However, even in EQ, the world became much smaller after 6-9 months or so. Much like Jezbel said in the "Sting of Death" thread, travel similar to death with cleric resses becomes much more trivialized once wizards/druids etc. obtain access to porting spells; however, you can't replicate that newbie experience of having to explore and experience the world before the ports exist.
*Edit For reference and to avoid getting in the same discussion and not derail this topic, I have linked the original 3 starting cities thread below:
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/forums/topic/1108/3-starting-cities/view/post_id/11241
honestly i cant see how ports between the newbie cities will make it so that noone has to explore. there is still the entire rest of the continent that you cant port to. and are you really exploring if you are running for your life from mobs 20 lvls higher than you trying to meet up with friends in cityB because you wanted to be an elf and they only start in City A dying 50-100 times while trying to map out the 8 or 9 zones between you? and now you finally get to the coast where the ship will take you to city B and there is no port here.... so you start going south along the coast, eventually finding the port after another 6 hours of travel and death. and what do we find out? the boat costs 5 silver... and you lost all your money when you died, and the only place there is anything you can kill is the starting city.
hrmm sounds to me like a bunch of work that is just there to keep me from actually playing the game and really doing exploration.
I think this has always been the issue with newer MMO games. There is just a lack of communication and social interaction between players. Where as when you force players to possibly interact with the rest of the community(IE asking for directions, finding a class that can port, or waiting around for a boat or shuttle service). The moment we allow the players to do too much without seeking help, is the moment the game loses all social interaction between players.
Aradune said:
It really depends on how the world is laid out, which is still very much a work in progress.
If a trip between starting cities is virtually impossible we will need them; if not, we won't.
Except perhaps a 1 time teleport so you can get together with a friend at your or his starting area.
Community and getting friends together, at least in this case, IMHO trump meaningful travel.
It's really a tight rope we are going to have to navigate quite a bit I think, and that's where building community and bringing friends together conflicts with the other hard core aspects of the game. There may be some tough calls to make. Beta will help reveal the answers.
This is an area that Brad and I disagree on - I don't want to move you safely around the world for any reason without dependence on other players to do so (through ships, class-based teleport/projection abilities, as a group, etc.) So I'll be pushing for no teleports, but I do understand his perspective, and we're working to design the game world in a way that could support something like this without trivializing travel or shrinking the world's size, if we decide to keep it.
How I see it, is I have not played this game. Right now, I am trusting the decision to those that are more knowledgeable/experienced about the game than me - and right now its just devs. The world may be that much different/larger/more dangerous than we are accustomed to. Devs know our concern and are willing to be flexible based on testing input, so I am going to trust them right now and give input when I am able to test it myself.
Joppa said:
This is an area that Brad and I disagree on - I don't want to move you safely around the world for any reason without dependence on other players to do so (through ships, class-based teleport/projection abilities, as a group, etc.) So I'll be pushing for no teleports, but I do understand his perspective, and we're working to design the game world in a way that could support something like this without trivializing travel or shrinking the world's size, if we decide to keep it.
I agree with this 100%, once you start adding transports, flight paths, etc etc. You lose a the sense of size in a world. And I think EQ did a great job, Pre POP of doing this. And the result was a lot of socializing between players. This is a different topic, but I also think this goes to same with a lot of other features like LFG's and Random dungeon joins. I want to have to travel to point a to point b to get to a dungeon. I want to have to maybe catch a ride with a friend to zone AB. Unfortunately, the New Era of MMO's changed how players play. We are now logging in, getting a few things done and logging out. I think the less automated travel in game will actually get players to login and actually get involved with the world.
Gawd said:
I would even be happy if port classes got the ability to port between those starting cities early like lvl 5 or so. i just dont want to have to wait until level 30 or 40 over two months into the game before i can actually group with my friends instead of pugs.
I don't see how Teleporters is the answer to your^ dilemma.
Because there is no quick way to see your friends (from the moment you have the desire), that you just won't see them at all..? Because the alternative is to actually go find them..?
Makes no sense... and is whimsical.
Additionally, and ONCE AGAIN.. city ports can be good, if they are curtailed & curbed in such a way that City Portals do not trivialize fast travel. See my previous post.
Do you want to sit around the city & continue to craft and wait for the next portal in 45 minutes. Casually allowing you to gather rations, craft, shop, etc.. while waiting for the city port to activate.. OR... spend those 45 minutes traveling to your destination... and saving yourself the COST of having to pay for City Port & also saving yourself from the 45m of "ethereal sickness".
One if free and you can leave anytime at your choosing, the other is instant, but has activation times & fees & sickness.
Endless possibilities.
Joppa said:
Aradune said:
It really depends on how the world is laid out, which is still very much a work in progress.
If a trip between starting cities is virtually impossible we will need them; if not, we won't.
Except perhaps a 1 time teleport so you can get together with a friend at your or his starting area.
Community and getting friends together, at least in this case, IMHO trump meaningful travel.
It's really a tight rope we are going to have to navigate quite a bit I think, and that's where building community and bringing friends together conflicts with the other hard core aspects of the game. There may be some tough calls to make. Beta will help reveal the answers.
This is an area that Brad and I disagree on - I don't want to move you safely around the world for any reason without dependence on other players to do so (through ships, class-based teleport/projection abilities, as a group, etc.) So I'll be pushing for no teleports, but I do understand his perspective, and we're working to design the game world in a way that could support something like this without trivializing travel or shrinking the world's size, if we decide to keep it.
Have to agree with Joppa on this one, but it is refreshing to actually see devs discuss a difference of opinion on the forums instead of giving us the usual party line regurgitated over and over again.
I can see both sides to this, you are going to want to play with your friends and that means meeting up somehow. The problem with travelling or waiting for a port is while you spend that time traveling to them , they are most likely out gaining xp.
Though I don't really think it would be impossible to travel from starting city to starting city on foot , dangerous sure but not impossible. I remember making the treck from Kelethin to Qeynos , that is a long journey and dangerous. Waiting for the boat at BB , waiting for it to be daytime in Kithicor AFTER finding out the night will kill you, trying to not get lost in the Karanas. But it lets you see different areas and set places you will want to go to later on.
Once the wizard spires were activated for Luclin it changed the journey to some extent, port up to the moon every 15min and then wait another 15min to port to the closest one. So while it took a lot of the danger out it didn't cut down on the time at all, you just had to decide which was better for you. So if the ports are similar to that I don't see it as that much of an issue. However they should not be located right outside of / next to the starting cities. You should have to travel at least some to get to each port location.
jimm0thy said:
I can see both sides to this, you are going to want to play with your friends and that means meeting up somehow. The problem with travelling or waiting for a port is while you spend that time traveling to them , they are most likely out gaining xp.
Though I don't really think it would be impossible to travel from starting city to starting city on foot , dangerous sure but not impossible. I remember making the treck from Kelethin to Qeynos , that is a long journey and dangerous. Waiting for the boat at BB , waiting for it to be daytime in Kithicor AFTER finding out the night will kill you, trying to not get lost in the Karanas. But it lets you see different areas and set places you will want to go to later on.
Once the wizard spires were activated for Luclin it changed the journey to some extent, port up to the moon every 15min and then wait another 15min to port to the closest one. So while it took a lot of the danger out it didn't cut down on the time at all, you just had to decide which was better for you. So if the ports are similar to that I don't see it as that much of an issue. However they should not be located right outside of / next to the starting cities. You should have to travel at least some to get to each port location.
But part of the reasoning behind that was the lore, which I enjoyed. So If I'm a dark elf, I'm not going to be able to get to the starter city of Humans or dwarfs very easy. I enjoyed that portion, If I wanted to be instantly close to friends, I would A. Choose the same race, or B. Choose another friendly race. As for Luclin, I think that's as far as I would take teleportation. It wasn't going around the world, but it was another location that people could meet up at. Plus it wasn't instant.
Sarim said:
Would be nice to have something like the fire pot room in Ocean of Tears (I think it was there?). Hidden away, but if you find it you can get anywhere instantly :)
Firepots were in Timorous Deep - from the Kunark expansion in EQ.
However, you had to take a boat ride to get there - sometimes 30+ minutes plus the firepots could be guarded by a dragon equaling instant death as well. So, pretty big risk/reward unless you knew the dragon was down, but nowhere near an instant port. But, like my earlier post, in Kunark, traveling wasn't nearly as difficult also as many wizards/druids achieved a level where they could port at that point. But.. if there was that much risk/reward involved with the teleports, I wouldn't be totally aganist an idea like the firepots