Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

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    • 1281 posts
    October 14, 2017 3:44 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    bigdogchris said:

    Here is a great article about how FF XIV gets the 'free trial' users to buy into subscribing. They are almost at WoW level numbers...

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-10-02-10m-and-counting-the-secrets-of-final-fantasy-xivs-success

     

    Well, sort of. FFXIV has about 680k active users and WoW has about 1.5 million (that have logged in within the last month). I often see people saying FFXIV is nearing WoWs 12 million but that's just not true, the statistics compared are wrong in that yes FFXIV is nearing 12 million but that's 12 million accounts played for at least a month over the lifetime of the game and not current/active subs. WoW has had over 100 million by that stat. 

    Perhaps, either way I really don't want this to become about WoW vs FFXIV numbers. The point I was trying to make is how FF turns free players into paid subers.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at October 14, 2017 6:34 PM PDT
    • 18 posts
    October 14, 2017 5:14 PM PDT

    I like the idea of a Subscription only game with no cash shop. I like the idea of a free trial, anything that reduces the barrier to entry is great so long as the community integrity can be preserved.

    Which is the real trick with any kind of free trial since you tend to have a flood of new players at release which could create a very toxic environment, potentially driving away long-term subscribers, let alone the issue with gold sellers etc using free trials. The best way I have seen it handled in the past is that anyone using a "trial account" has extremely limited access to the chat/trade systems so that they don't impact the existing community in a harmful manner and that it has a hard level cap. If you are going to do a trial of some kind though don't put a time limit on it, people need to feel that they are free to try a product out when their life allows for it.

    If you are going to do a trial or trial account of some kind though don't put a time limit on it, people need to feel that they are free to try a product out when their life allows for it otherwise they are more likely to just take a pass. Also if it is decided to send out trial invites through friends... give those friend trial accounts some kinda of extra perk vs a normal trial account.

    As for "premium content" I think the only thing that should be done is you could call the $15/month sub a "premium membership" which gives you full access to the game, barring any expansions you have not purchased down the road, with full character slots and some other perks. I really like the idea of a developer including some quality of life perks for full members, as an example ESO unlimited crafting materials storage bag, since it is all about the perceived value and the more a member "feels" the benefits the more they are likely to keep a subscription active.

    I don't see any issue with creating a lower tier membership like FFXIV has where your level cap is removed but you have fewer character slots, no quality of life perks, etc. You could set the price at say for 5 or 7 dollars a month. Doing this lowers the barrier to entry for folks who want to transition from a free trial to paid member and then over time they can be enticed by a "premium membership" if it is done properly. Because the monthly maximum is 15 dollars though I would not put more than 1 lower priced tier in place.

    Having the three tiers would then create the sales funnel for Pantheon: Free Trial --- Standard Membership --- Premium Membership. Keeps it simple, then you can run data analytics to help make adjustments as time goes by and maximize the customer conversion from free to premium subs.

    If you wanted to factor in an equivalent to box sales then you could provide "starter packages" of premium subscription time and other benefits which are mostly in place already with the pledge packages.

    • 3852 posts
    October 15, 2017 4:37 AM PDT

    As with all of us I have definite opinions about the way "the perfect" MMO should work. But that isn't the point. Our goal shouldn't be the perfect MMO for the hardest of the hardcore (us). Our goal should be a MMO that is distinctly better for us than what is out there now - this is a sine qua non for why else would we care whether Pantheon lives or dies? But also a MMO that brings in customers beyond the small base of pledgers and forum participants, and therefore succeeds. This is also a sine qua non, a perfect game that fails is useless to all of us.

    >This can change depending on business advice we get<

    is the core of the matter and I 110% agree. As long as Pantheon is a distinct improvement over current MMOs business success is MORE important than doing it my way on every issue, or even most issues.

     

    • 323 posts
    October 15, 2017 4:56 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    As with all of us I have definite opinions about the way "the perfect" MMO should work. But that isn't the point. Our goal shouldn't be the perfect MMO for the hardest of the hardcore (us). Our goal should be a MMO that is distinctly better for us than what is out there now - this is a sine qua non for why else would we care whether Pantheon lives or dies? But also a MMO that brings in customers beyond the small base of pledgers and forum participants, and therefore succeeds. This is also a sine qua non, a perfect game that fails is useless to all of us.

    >This can change depending on business advice we get<

    is the core of the matter and I 110% agree. As long as Pantheon is a distinct improvement over current MMOs business success is MORE important than doing it my way on every issue, or even most issues.

     

    I get your sentiment, and I do hope and expect the game to draw a large audience. But you've omitted a possibility. The game could be both "distinctly better" than what's out there and still not worth playing. I hope you'll forgive me for wanting the game to be something *I* want to play, not something that a whole bunch of other people want to play .... :) 

    • 3852 posts
    October 15, 2017 7:10 AM PDT

    >I get your sentiment, and I do hope and expect the game to draw a large audience. But you've omitted a possibility. The game could be both "distinctly better" than what's out there and still not worth playing. I hope you'll forgive me for wanting the game to be something *I* want to play, not something that a whole bunch of other people want to play .... <

    I stand corrected. Actually I sit corrected. Two necessary elements to Pantheon for any of us.

    1. The game has to be good enough that we will want to play it.

    2. The game has to be successful enough that it stays out there for us to be able to play it.

    Any game design decision that I don't like but that increases the chance of condition 2 occuring without being such a major hit to what I personally want to play as to prevent condition 1 from occuring is okay.

     

    • 98 posts
    October 15, 2017 8:02 AM PDT

    Personally, I am against any system that creates tiers, even for fluff items, and definitely nothing that speeds up the levelling process.

    I want each player to have the same opportunities in the game. As for collectors wanting to buy fluff/housing items, does not really sound like collecting to me.

     

    • 1120 posts
    October 15, 2017 10:51 AM PDT

    Jazznblues said:

    Personally, I am against any system that creates tiers, even for fluff items, and definitely nothing that speeds up the levelling process.

    I want each player to have the same opportunities in the game. As for collectors wanting to buy fluff/housing items, does not really sound like collecting to me.

     

    The game itself is going to create tiers.  Tiers between the amount of time people can play (equating to how much they achieve in a short amount of time).  Tiers between how good players are (usually seen in the quality of raid gear or even the raids they are actually able to kill) and Tiers between how serious you play the game (there will be people that min max and people that wont).

    You should play they game for yourself.  do you NEED a 20 slot backpack when you first start at level 1... no.  But it would make the game slightly easier being that you have to return to town less frequent.

    Do you need a potion that gives you 10% more exp?   No, but it helps you level faster if that is indeed your goal.

    The players that are going to competitively raid (see competetively) are going to be the firsts to max level, the first to farm specifc dungeons and the first to beat the raids.  If they have an opportunity to pay for something that helps them they will.  That doesnt affect your gaming in the slightest.  Very few players will fit into that category and ALSO would not want to purchase anything seperate.

    Forgive me for assuming, but in MOST cases, the players that are against cash grabs are the ones that want to enjoy the game, take it easy, and raid when they get there.  The players that DONT want to spend more then they have to, or feel like they NEED to.

    Just play YOUR game, dont worry about whos max level first, what route they took, etc etc.  And for the record, i honestly wouldnt care about cash grabs.  If they were there i might use them, if they arent i wouldnt think twice.

    Just my opinion.

    • 248 posts
    October 15, 2017 2:04 PM PDT

    Porygon said:

    Jazznblues said:

    Personally, I am against any system that creates tiers, even for fluff items, and definitely nothing that speeds up the levelling process.

    I want each player to have the same opportunities in the game. As for collectors wanting to buy fluff/housing items, does not really sound like collecting to me.

     

    The game itself is going to create tiers.  Tiers between the amount of time people can play (equating to how much they achieve in a short amount of time).  Tiers between how good players are (usually seen in the quality of raid gear or even the raids they are actually able to kill) and Tiers between how serious you play the game (there will be people that min max and people that wont).

    You should play they game for yourself.  do you NEED a 20 slot backpack when you first start at level 1... no.  But it would make the game slightly easier being that you have to return to town less frequent.

    Do you need a potion that gives you 10% more exp?   No, but it helps you level faster if that is indeed your goal.

    The players that are going to competitively raid (see competetively) are going to be the firsts to max level, the first to farm specifc dungeons and the first to beat the raids.  If they have an opportunity to pay for something that helps them they will.  That doesnt affect your gaming in the slightest.  Very few players will fit into that category and ALSO would not want to purchase anything seperate.

    Forgive me for assuming, but in MOST cases, the players that are against cash grabs are the ones that want to enjoy the game, take it easy, and raid when they get there.  The players that DONT want to spend more then they have to, or feel like they NEED to.

    Just play YOUR game, dont worry about whos max level first, what route they took, etc etc.  And for the record, i honestly wouldnt care about cash grabs.  If they were there i might use them, if they arent i wouldnt think twice.

    Just my opinion.



    I'm with Jazznblues. No tiers, please. Don't cuddle me with fluff. Don't devaluate my achievements by having things such as extra bags or xp potions (for money) in the game. You wrote it yourself Porygon, it makes it easier and I'm not here for easy. I'm here for a challenging game. A game where the hours I put in will determin which level I am, what gear I wear and how much of the world I see :)


    -sorte.

    • 557 posts
    October 15, 2017 2:29 PM PDT

    I think the VR team have been fairly clear that there won't be any pay to win or cash shop element to Pantheon.

    Cash shops are a slippery slope.  You start off with a few cosmetic items, then the next thing you know, Brad takes a two-week vacation and Kilsin is selling weight reducing kangaroo hide backpacks and +50DMG boomerangs.

    So far as premium content, define "premium" as a paid subscriber who is contributing their $15/month.  Anything beyond the benefits of a normal subscription needs to be earned through hard work in-game, not by selling body parts or your family jewels on e-bay.


    This post was edited by Celandor at October 15, 2017 2:31 PM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    October 15, 2017 4:08 PM PDT

    The question is whether or not systems like "kronos" are considered pay to win.  There have been suggestions recently that it's not the same thing ... it's such a wonderful deterrant to RMT, yada yada yada.  I absolutely consider it RMT and just want to play in an oldschool world where participating in RMT would get you banned.

    • 98 posts
    October 16, 2017 12:58 AM PDT

    Porygon said:

    Jazznblues said:

    Personally, I am against any system that creates tiers, even for fluff items, and definitely nothing that speeds up the levelling process.

    I want each player to have the same opportunities in the game. As for collectors wanting to buy fluff/housing items, does not really sound like collecting to me.

     

    The game itself is going to create tiers.  Tiers between the amount of time people can play (equating to how much they achieve in a short amount of time).  Tiers between how good players are (usually seen in the quality of raid gear or even the raids they are actually able to kill) and Tiers between how serious you play the game (there will be people that min max and people that wont).

    You should play they game for yourself.  do you NEED a 20 slot backpack when you first start at level 1... no.  But it would make the game slightly easier being that you have to return to town less frequent.

    Do you need a potion that gives you 10% more exp?   No, but it helps you level faster if that is indeed your goal.

    The players that are going to competitively raid (see competetively) are going to be the firsts to max level, the first to farm specifc dungeons and the first to beat the raids.  If they have an opportunity to pay for something that helps them they will.  That doesnt affect your gaming in the slightest.  Very few players will fit into that category and ALSO would not want to purchase anything seperate.

    Forgive me for assuming, but in MOST cases, the players that are against cash grabs are the ones that want to enjoy the game, take it easy, and raid when they get there.  The players that DONT want to spend more then they have to, or feel like they NEED to.

    Just play YOUR game, dont worry about whos max level first, what route they took, etc etc.  And for the record, i honestly wouldnt care about cash grabs.  If they were there i might use them, if they arent i wouldnt think twice.

    Just my opinion.

     

    What you are talking about as tiers are quite subjective. I only have the weekend to play so then I am part of a tier of weekend players? I only "twist" (using EQ for this example) 3 songs as a bard due to a disability, so I am part of a disability tier? Subjective or false tiers was not what I was talking about.

    The only tier I want to see is created by playing the game. People who have spent more time crafting, or running dungeons, they more than likely will have better gear, but that is through a player's individual effort not by dropping cash.

    My point was I don't want a tier implemented by the VR team, which is nothing more than a cash grab. It's a cheap tactic (or not so cheap if it nickle and dimes you) and a slippery slope. Mine or your financial situation should not make it so we become second-class players, which could eventually lead to the nightmare scenario that was "Gearscore" in WoW minus the mod but instilling the same attitude.

    No one ever needs a 10% experience potion or needs to purchase bigger bags at the start (the bags are essentially a part of starting a new toon). Too often people get need and want confused.

    If someone wants an easier game, then Pantheon is not the game for them and there are plenty of games where they can spend money to make the game easier.

    I want Pantheon play sessions to feel like I am playing a round of golf, over par for 17 holes then shoot an eagle on the 18th. I will go away smiling, just remembering the eagle and not the previous 17 holes. Exactly like I did in EQ with regards getting my epic, forgot all the camping, all the raiding, just enjoyed my Innoruuk's Curse.

    Have a good one 8)


    This post was edited by Jazznblues at October 16, 2017 1:01 AM PDT
    • 1120 posts
    October 16, 2017 4:18 AM PDT

    If you read what I posted. And took away from it your example of a weekend tier,  I apologize.  Let me be more clear [using your example of an eq bard].  You only play on the weekend,  which likely means that you are not endgame raiding.   Maybe your guild kills a mob or two,  and you get some drops.   Your gear is substantially lower quality than that of bard B.  He has better instrument mods (which allow him to pull faster,  and amplify his group songs more)  more hp and ac (which allows him to take more hits pulling,  so as not to die as often,  and much much more mana/regen (which means he can pull faster,  for longer by utilizing fading memories more often).  He is now in a separate tier from you (and assuming you are equally as talented)  this tier is only created by play time. 

    Or,  let's say he is significantly better than you,  at actually playing the game.   You melody 4 songs together vs him manually twisting 5 songs and swapping instruments out in order to maximize the level of support he provides.  He pulls better because he understands the game more,  is able to see problems before they happen and prevent them or reacts to oh sh*t situations better.   He's now in a different tier than you based on how well he plays the game.   Those are 2 elaborate examples of how the game itself creates tiers outside of any cash grabs. 

    I played extensively on the eq progression servers where there were quite a few items that you can purchase that made things faster (aka easier) and yet not a single one made a statistical difference in the end.   Guild A wss not better because a majority of their players would buy them, they were better because they were a different tier of player.

    As I said before,  I don't care about cash grabs,  I don't care how hard the game is,  I know what I'm getting into.   But I also want a game that sticks around for the long haul, and if that's what needs to happen,  then so be it.   It won't change how good I am,  or what tier I fall into. 

    Also,  saying that wanting the game easier means this isn't the game for you is a silly thing to say.  Everyone wants to be better. Which in turn makes the game easier.  Doesn't mean they don't belong here. 

     

    oneADseven said:

    The question is whether or not systems like "kronos" are considered pay to win.  There have been suggestions recently that it's not the same thing ... it's such a wonderful deterrant to RMT, yada yada yada.  I absolutely consider it RMT and just want to play in an oldschool world where participating in RMT would get you banned.

    I 100% agree,  it is completely RMT, but in eq it was a necessary evil.  I doubt we would see anything like that here for quite some time. 

    • 1120 posts
    October 16, 2017 4:26 AM PDT

    Jazznblues said:

    My point was I don't want a tier implemented by the VR team, which is nothing more than a cash grab. It's a cheap tactic (or not so cheap if it nickle and dimes you) and a slippery slope. Mine or your financial situation should not make it so we become second-class players, which could eventually lead to the nightmare scenario that was "Gearscore" in WoW minus the mod but instilling the same attitude.

    I'm  not sure I understand this comment.  Gearscore in wow came about because it was an easy way to measure a character's experience level on any given toon, same way that linking previous achievements was used before.  Gearscore had nothing to do with cash grabs or a monetary tier that blizzard had for players willing to spend cash.  It was the same as someone in eq asking for a tank with xxx life and xxx a.c. (or a guild requiring xxx aas to join), it was just much easier to measure because of a built in add-on. 

    If I misunderstood what you meant I apologize. 

    • 98 posts
    October 18, 2017 1:33 AM PDT

    Porygon said:

    Jazznblues said:

    My point was I don't want a tier implemented by the VR team, which is nothing more than a cash grab. It's a cheap tactic (or not so cheap if it nickle and dimes you) and a slippery slope. Mine or your financial situation should not make it so we become second-class players, which could eventually lead to the nightmare scenario that was "Gearscore" in WoW minus the mod but instilling the same attitude.

    I'm  not sure I understand this comment.  Gearscore in wow came about because it was an easy way to measure a character's experience level on any given toon, same way that linking previous achievements was used before.  Gearscore had nothing to do with cash grabs or a monetary tier that blizzard had for players willing to spend cash.  It was the same as someone in eq asking for a tank with xxx life and xxx a.c. (or a guild requiring xxx aas to join), it was just much easier to measure because of a built in add-on. 

    If I misunderstood what you meant I apologize.

     

    The concept behind Gearscore was sound, to make sure you had the minimum iLvl to do content. Unfortunately, it was not used this way, it was used to ensure a run would be successful, that everyone was OP for the content that was being attempted. In doing so it actually hindered players from getting gear, as their gear was not good enough for the users of Gearscore (about 90% of the WoW at the time). My point is it was a fine example of an artificial tier, and it was also a negative tier that hindered the very people it should have helped. Just because player A is 20 iLvl lower than player B does not mean that player B has more skill. Yet this became the norm for calculating skill. I know it was used in EQ for tanks with health/ac but that was driven by the encounter, and guilds would require a certain amount of AA's, they also tended to be the serious dungeon guilds, it was your choice if you wanted to try and join.

    I admit "Gearscore" it's not a good example of the cash shop, but the idea is similar. If the cash shop sold certain items that became "required" to run dungeons it also would create a hindrance to those that cannot afford a subscription AND to buy gear from a store. I remember when Rift just sold fluff in the cash shop, now they sell potions for every conceivable situation, mounts, weapons, armour, solely to make money whilst also making content redundant.

    Anyway, have been pondering this thread. It's all hypothetical. I don't see Pantheon going down this route, as the core of people interested wants a challenging game. I feel the last thing they want is any kind of "Premium" player.

    Have a good one! (Again written on phone travelling to work, so I apologise for spelling and grammar)  8)


    This post was edited by Jazznblues at October 18, 2017 1:34 AM PDT
    • 1120 posts
    October 18, 2017 3:19 AM PDT

    I understand what you are implying.  But the reason that gearscore became like that is due to the nature of wow as a game.  People would get an alt to max,  put on a few cheap legendary items,  and expect to get a spot in a raid.  It would be the equivalent of hitting max on a cleric,  getting your epic,  and expecting every pug too let you join when you have 2k mana (when 10k is the average).

     

    Now this was like this because the nature of the way wow worked and the culture of the community.  I don't expect to see this as widespread in pantheon.  And especially not because of cash grabs. 

     

    Also on my phone!

    • 1785 posts
    October 18, 2017 7:27 AM PDT

    Add me to the list of people that don't want cash shops or "tiers" - although I feel differently about "kronos" systems, but we've beat that horse enough :)

    My problem with cash shops is that, as others have said, they are a slippery slope.  They're usually ok when they first get implemented.  But a year or two later, suddenly all the new nice stuff is going into the cash shop, and more and more "convenience" items are creeping in there.

    I know some people say "hey, there's no reason why someone buying an xp potion or a bigger bag or whatever should impact your gameplay" but that's not really true.  For things that allow people to advance faster or have an easier time, human psychology will always pick up on the difference and generate resentment.  People want a level playing field in MMOs, simple as that.  For in-game items like the backpack example, that might sound great - unless you're a crafter who wanted to be able to make and sell backpacks to people.  Just an example.

    Anyway, no to cash shops :)

    As far as premium subs go - I'm ok with paying a little extra for things like more character slots, etc - but it shouldn't give me any kind of in-game benefits whatsoever.

    • 1584 posts
    October 18, 2017 7:37 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Add me to the list of people that don't want cash shops or "tiers" - although I feel differently about "kronos" systems, but we've beat that horse enough :)

    My problem with cash shops is that, as others have said, they are a slippery slope.  They're usually ok when they first get implemented.  But a year or two later, suddenly all the new nice stuff is going into the cash shop, and more and more "convenience" items are creeping in there.

    I know some people say "hey, there's no reason why someone buying an xp potion or a bigger bag or whatever should impact your gameplay" but that's not really true.  For things that allow people to advance faster or have an easier time, human psychology will always pick up on the difference and generate resentment.  People want a level playing field in MMOs, simple as that.  For in-game items like the backpack example, that might sound great - unless you're a crafter who wanted to be able to make and sell backpacks to people.  Just an example.

    Anyway, no to cash shops :)

    As far as premium subs go - I'm ok with paying a little extra for things like more character slots, etc - but it shouldn't give me any kind of in-game benefits whatsoever.

    I have to agree no cash shop, no to buying backpacks, no to basically everything cept for maybe some cosmetic items you could possibly put in you house or something like this it has to be cosmetic only that way it doesnt effect your gameplay in anyway cept for how you look doing it, and honestly i wouldn't like to see cosmetic gear really either, not that im tottally against it but it leads to a ton of people looking exactly the same and also ruins the appeal on getting new/better gear and not enjoying the way it looks, this is just my 2 copper on the topic.

    • 2756 posts
    October 18, 2017 8:48 AM PDT

    If there must be premium then skins and fluff only, but omg please restrict how 'whacky' they are!  No bikinis for summer or snowman outfits for winter.  No neon pink suits of unicorn armor.  No swords the size of a horse.  No giant chicken mounts.  No gnome-tinkered pseudo-medieval-modern stuff.  No troops of trailing household pets....

    On-the-whole I would prefer a straight monthly (or yearly) fee and NO multi-tiered content at all beyond the stuff for pledging.  I suppose maybe out-of-game stuff like extra character slots would be ok...


    This post was edited by disposalist at October 18, 2017 8:49 AM PDT
    • 338 posts
    October 18, 2017 9:00 AM PDT

    The first time I saw a Paladin in full Rubicite armor it blew my mind that there was a zone I had never been to that dropped this crazy red plate armor.

     

    If this had been available in some cash shop that feeling would have been ruined.

     

    Looks can be a driving motive for many people as they seek out gear including myself. Cash shops for cosmetics really tread on this.

     

     

    Thanks,

    Kiz~

    • 1785 posts
    October 18, 2017 9:07 AM PDT

    Angrykiz said:

    The first time I saw a Paladin in full Rubicite armor it blew my mind that there was a zone I had never been to that dropped this crazy red plate armor.

     

    If this had been available in some cash shop that feeling would have been ruined.

     

    Looks can be a driving motive for many people as they seek out gear including myself. Cash shops for cosmetics really tread on this.

     

     

    Thanks,

    Kiz~

    Looks > stats :)  I'm one of those crazy people that will actuall NOT use a piece of equipment if it looks terrible.  Instead I'll go look for a decent-looking alternative.  (and I raid, too.  I'm all about making the game harder for myself than it needs to be sometimes)

    • 84 posts
    October 20, 2017 7:54 AM PDT

    I would pay for a premium server like Stormhammer and I believe many more would today... since many of us were poor back then and... well not so poor now. I believe any other tier, available on the same server with the "normal" tier, would be a mistake.

     

    I hope there is zero cash shop.


    This post was edited by Nydan at October 20, 2017 7:56 AM PDT
    • 257 posts
    October 20, 2017 8:48 PM PDT

    You guys should read up on the new patent Activision was just awarded. It makes subscriptions and the like seem less ... intrusive, bad, immoral, constitutional violation, etc. You're welcome Kilsin, I was going to use a very bannable word for a discription because it was the most accurate. It took some willpower.

    • 60 posts
    October 20, 2017 9:50 PM PDT

    I'd be in favor of a premium subscription of some sort.  I think it has potential even if it only offered enchanced customer service - ie GMs on server & running events seems about right.  

    As far as cash shops, they're a good way to get a developer the ROI they need on a game.  Love it or hate it a cash shop can be a good way to make players happier and keep a game going.  A great example of this is EQ today.  It has a massively diminished playerbase, but on the TLP servers, some bags, exp/sow/haste/mana potions, illusions, etc provide pretty minor gameplay enhancements that keep the game going.  I think I've probably spent more on EQ in the last year on TLP servers than I did in 12 years of play with buying expansions & just paying the sub.  We don't get people screaming that the marketplace is ruining their game, people get some extra conveinience in old-school EQ, and the game keeps funded.  Now, I will say that designing the game JUST around the use of the cash store is entirely another story, so there's a fine line to be walked.