I am sure I am of the same opinion as most of you. Getting spammed by gold sellers is lame and annoying and destroys immersion. With that said, are there any situations you can think of where having gold sellers is a positive thing on any level ? Having them is having extra subscriptions one could argue, as long as you aren't losing people due to them in their place and assuming they don't spam and keep their auctions on a private site and not spamming it in the game world.
Second question : Have you ever purchased or sold game money or items ? Do you think doing so is wrong ? If you have a very busy life and lots of money but little game time, is it wrong to buy in game stuff to enjoy the game more ?
POLL:
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/polls/view/216/gold-sellers-ever-a-good-thing
Sadly I admit that on two occasions I had played EQ for years and had a blast but intended to quit. Because of that one time I sold the account of a maxed out bard and another time a maxed out necro. I then changed my mind and came back and with that money I made bought in game items such as an AoN , pre nerf CoS and pre nerf fungi staff. This was many years ago when level 50 was the max in EQ and I don't think I would ever do such a thing again (plus it violates the EULA LOL) . I never did this when I played VG.
Third question: Do you think having plenty of armor and weapon quests to go along with the normal drops/raid/crafted gear is a way to combat gold sellers since they mostly wouldn't even be needed anymore ?
for the most part gold selling artificially skews the economy of a game, I have always believed that if gold sellers are actually going to enter the game then the smart solution would be for the game company itself to sell gold at a price lower than what the gold sellers could ever afford to sell it. that way we never have to deal with gold selling
Dasilva said:
for the most part gold selling artificially skews the economy of a game, I have always believed that if gold sellers are actually going to enter the game then the smart solution would be for the game company itself to sell gold at a price lower than what the gold sellers could ever afford to sell it. that way we never have to deal with gold selling
Selling gold even through an in game system just ends up leading to P2W issues and economy inflation.
So no, Gold farmers / sellers do nothing but ruin a game via the economy and annoying the living daylights out of people in game via chat spam or in game mail spam.
Zandil is spot on.
Gold sellers/farmers are a sign of a healthy game but that is where the positives end in my opinion. Any form of gold selling/buying completely ruins the in-game economy and allows anyone with money in their wallet to purchase items that they otherwise may not have been able to achieve via skill, teamwork and player interaction.
It is counter productive within a community too and I believe that it is what starts the snowball rolling and turning what may have been a good game to begin with, into something that is now losing integrity and headed down a dangerous path that it may not return from.
In saying that though, it is up to the community as a whole to be the deciding factor in whether we engage with these people and spend our hard earned money on their ill gotten gold and essentially ruin our own game and our own community by giving in to the "easy way", something that the majority of members in this community fight passionately to defend!
The choice is yours.
Jason said:
Third question: Do you think having plenty of armor and weapon quests to go along with the normal drops/raid/crafted gear is a way to combat gold sellers since they mostly wouldn't even be needed anymore ?
Combating gold sellers is always a moving target for the Devs, as soon as they find a way to stop them the farmers find another way in.
One problem we will have is most items and gear in pantheon is going to be able to be traded or sold and that is going to be very enticing to the farmers if Pantheon has a good healthy population of players.
I would say no. The only way I see this as useful is if the game economy is designed to have the flow of capital in and out of the game. I don't inherently hate the concept of free to play games that then charge extra for certain things but they have to be designed well and you need to be able to compete without it. Even in games like that though third party gold sellers would still be undermining the in game economy.
WOT is a gold he P2W game and yes I bought gold there. Did it make me better to some extent but anyone could cause the game sold it. Do I want it in this game, No cause it did ruin WoT for my hence why I looked up Brad to see if he was making anything. I also no longer play Wot. Will it happen most likely I have seen it in every game I have played so far, and I believe the money should be spent on this game to make it better and more content. I will be adventuring for all my epic gear and hopefully they will have places like wardship of the sleeping moon and vursrog moors and apw armor and weapon quests like Dargun's tomb and Lord Tsangs Tomb.
Raidan said:No
I think gold sellers are never a good thing, now i dont mind if the game itself sells gold, because lets face it either pantheon sells us gold or
W W W . G O L D A H . C O M~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wi Sells Golds Cheap~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
$10==========================================================================10Kgolds
and you see that, every 5 seconds for the rest of your gaming life.
now sorry to all the purists out there but the spam in my chat going by so fast i cant chat while i do stuff is much more annoying to me than some warrior running around with a Blade of Carnage that he bought with Gold that was purchased from an online store.
Zandil said:
Jason said:
Third question: Do you think having plenty of armor and weapon quests to go along with the normal drops/raid/crafted gear is a way to combat gold sellers since they mostly wouldn't even be needed anymore ?
Combating gold sellers is always a moving target for the Devs, as soon as they find a way to stop them the farmers find another way in.
One problem we will have is most items and gear in pantheon is going to be able to be traded or sold and that is going to be very enticing to the farmers if Pantheon has a good healthy population of players.
The problem is most devs go after the sellers....get rid of the buyers too, their use of these scum services are what allow them to thrive.
If a game I am playing has no interest in getting rid of the gold sellers / spammers then that is a game I will not play long. This subject is one of the things that has me a bit concerned about the plan for a free to play up to level (tbd).....I hope the devs consider this and do something to protect the paying customers from spammers making ftp accounts and spamming.
If the in game population for Pantheon mirrors the population on these forums - I wonder how much of a problem gold selling will be in Pantheon. Because I'd bet most people here would just as soon not have gold sellers muddling up their game, thank you very much.
Further, I think the population here generally WANTS all the challenges Pantheon will bring - and buying gold is a "challenge bypass" of sorts - getting money to buy gear to catch up, etc...
In that case, I think no matter how healthy the game is - even it it's a screaming success - the market for gold sellers would be sparse. Nobody (or not enough) buying.
Of course - I know this is all a pipe dream on my part - but hey, I can still have that dream!
In a more practical sense - I've often wondered (but don't really have a mind for figuring out - economics aren't my strong suit) if there is a way within an MMO to lessen the importance of in game cash - so that the whole concept of farming itself within a game wouldn't be profitable.
Go way back in history - before people used cash... now you have a barter system. (EC tunnel on steroids!) - I'll trade you 6 perfect lion pelts for that belt of godly wonder....
Again - not something that's likely realistic on my part - but still, I wonder if there is at least some answer in doing that - in lessening the importance of gold.
@Wandidar - i doubt that at release the game population will be anything like the forum population. the people here are Adults looking for a game that can bring back the feel of old EQ and VG. we are hoping so hard for it that we were willing to put our money down without any guarantee we will get to play this game in the near future. (i said NEAR)
There is also the MMORovers the large community of people who keep flocking to the next new MMO to try it out and see if its any good. plus i have convinced a good number of my guildies and other gamers i know to buy the game and pay a sub when it comes out. some of them have the same idea as I when it comes to games; some dont.
@Sevens - The Universal Chat is also an invaluable tool for people seeking groups, or just looking to chat while they farm crafting mats. thinking that anything we do or the devs can do (aside from removing profit altogether) will get rid of gold sellers is naive.
the thought of "if we get rid of World Chat" or "if we dont have free trials" or "if we ban more people" will stop it is like the fallacy of "If we ban guns nobody will ever be murdered again" and is like cutting off the nose to spite the face. no matter what you, do no matter what the devs do, players who want to buy gold will find a way to buy gold. its just a fact. but if the pantheon team designs an in game store for the purpose of buying gold, at least that money could be used to better the game rather than used to find more annoying ways to advertize gold sales.
I did say I was dreaming... BUT - I think who STAYS in Pantheon is, for this conversation, more important than who COMES to Pantheon to try it out. If, after a year, it is full of mostly old school players who are mostly averse to gold selling - then the gold selling market might not be viable. I can hope!
Gawd said:
@Wandidar - i doubt that at release the game population will be anything like the forum population. the people here are Adults looking for a game that can bring back the feel of old EQ and VG. we are hoping so hard for it that we were willing to put our money down without any guarantee we will get to play this game in the near future. (i said NEAR)
There is also the MMORovers the large community of people who keep flocking to the next new MMO to try it out and see if its any good. plus i have convinced a good number of my guildies and other gamers i know to buy the game and pay a sub when it comes out. some of them have the same idea as I when it comes to games; some dont.
@Sevens - The Universal Chat is also an invaluable tool for people seeking groups, or just looking to chat while they farm crafting mats. thinking that anything we do or the devs can do (aside from removing profit altogether) will get rid of gold sellers is naive.
the thought of "if we get rid of World Chat" or "if we dont have free trials" or "if we ban more people" will stop it is like the fallacy of "If we ban guns nobody will ever be murdered again" and is like cutting off the nose to spite the face. no matter what you, do no matter what the devs do, players who want to buy gold will find a way to buy gold. its just a fact. but if the pantheon team designs an in game store for the purpose of buying gold, at least that money could be used to better the game rather than used to find more annoying ways to advertize gold sales.
I was able to get groups long before EQ installed universal chat services, /guild chat is great for passing time while mat hunting..and so is /zone (/shout or /ooc). I never said removing universal chat would solve the problem but it is a step in the right direction. I never said I was against the free trials, just that I hope they consider all aspects of how it will impact paying customers when they design it...but I am 100% in favor of "banning more people" if you buy gold...banned, if exploit...banned. Now I also understand from a financial point of view this may not be best in short term but I do believe for the longevity of the game it sure is.
In regard to chat channels (for me) - If I'm out in the wilds hunting... I don't really even WANT to see an endless stream of text flying by. I feel obliged to have it on and obliged to at least note it so that I'm not missing something important (even though the vast majority of the time I know nothing important is occurring there)
SO - outside of "communal" places in the game (with communal meaning in town, in a trade area, etc...) I would prefer my chat to be no more global than that zone.
However - in town, or in "the bazaar", or in some zone that is set aside for crafting, or within anything else like that... in those places I'm more open to being able to chat and seeing chat from anyone in any of those anywhere in the world... because part of the reason you might be in those places is to interact... buying this, asking that, etc...
Which would give you something like a "city chat" channel - where all chat from all cities can be seen if you are in a city, etc...
And would give you more private "zone" chat when you are in more secluded areas of the game - a dungeon, an overland hunting zone, etc...
The presence of gold spammers/sellers may be an indication that a game is doing well, but they are in no way a contributing factor in its success. The spammers are simply a result. I could go on for a very long time about all the detrimental effects gold selling brings to a game, but I will save my breath and simply say this: If you consider nothing else, gold spammers DESTROY immersion. Nothing will rip me back to reality quite like some A$$ slamming 12 lines of text/characters in my chat every 30 seconds.
*edited for spelling
Sevens said:
I was able to get groups long before EQ installed universal chat services, /guild chat is great for passing time while mat hunting..and so is /zone (/shout or /ooc). I never said removing universal chat would solve the problem but it is a step in the right direction. I never said I was against the free trials, just that I hope they consider all aspects of how it will impact paying customers when they design it...but I am 100% in favor of "banning more people" if you buy gold...banned, if exploit...banned. Now I also understand from a financial point of view this may not be best in short term but I do believe for the longevity of the game it sure is.
i have played a few games where they tried to ban players for buying gold. the trouble with that is that the only way they can do it is to track the suspect gold. this Always causes innocent players to get caught up in the net. would you like to be banned because you sold some crafted armor to a gold seller on the AH? cuz i have. it took two days to clear up the mishap and i lost out completely on the crafted armor because the suspect gold was removed from my account when it got reinstated. this is the reason i stopped playing archeage.
Just because you could get groups before universal chat doesnt mean that universal chat is not more efficient. also for the sake of not having competition and claiming problems i tend to hunt mats in unpopulated or low population areas. so /zone /shout /ooc dont do me any good in those situations unless i just want to hold a conversation with myself. /guild is ok but that tends to have a very shallow pool of thought. eventually everyone knows where each other stands on every subject and there is no use to talking anymore. also i tend ot play at off peak hours, meaning that unless there is a scheduled event i probably only have like 2 or 3 guildies on at the same time as me. besides if there is no universal chat the gold sellers will just park several toons in all the high population areas and spam in all the local channels. there really is no point in getting rid of a useful tool just because some people use it for nefarious purposes.
Gawd said:
Sevens said:
I was able to get groups long before EQ installed universal chat services, /guild chat is great for passing time while mat hunting..and so is /zone (/shout or /ooc). I never said removing universal chat would solve the problem but it is a step in the right direction. I never said I was against the free trials, just that I hope they consider all aspects of how it will impact paying customers when they design it...but I am 100% in favor of "banning more people" if you buy gold...banned, if exploit...banned. Now I also understand from a financial point of view this may not be best in short term but I do believe for the longevity of the game it sure is.
i have played a few games where they tried to ban players for buying gold. the trouble with that is that the only way they can do it is to track the suspect gold. this Always causes innocent players to get caught up in the net. would you like to be banned because you sold some crafted armor to a gold seller on the AH? cuz i have. it took two days to clear up the mishap and i lost out completely on the crafted armor because the suspect gold was removed from my account when it got reinstated. this is the reason i stopped playing archeage.
Just because you could get groups before universal chat doesnt mean that universal chat is not more efficient. also for the sake of not having competition and claiming problems i tend to hunt mats in unpopulated or low population areas. so /zone /shout /ooc dont do me any good in those situations unless i just want to hold a conversation with myself. /guild is ok but that tends to have a very shallow pool of thought. eventually everyone knows where each other stands on every subject and there is no use to talking anymore. also i tend ot play at off peak hours, meaning that unless there is a scheduled event i probably only have like 2 or 3 guildies on at the same time as me. besides if there is no universal chat the gold sellers will just park several toons in all the high population areas and spam in all the local channels. there really is no point in getting rid of a useful tool just because some people use it for nefarious purposes.
We will just have to agree to disagree on what a useful tool is :)
For me it's not about honest or nefarious purpose - it's about mood in a zone.
Here's the scene:
- You heard that "Ebon Forest" was one of the most dangerous places in the game
- It took you 2 nights to work up the nerve to go there
- You spend an hour travelling from where you are, to get to the zone line.
- You zone in, and sure enough - what you see is a deep, dark, dank, scary looking forest.
- To make the point, you suddenly see... something... looks sorta like a shadow, but not quite, with nasty looking red eyes go by in the distance.
- Then the zone music starts. It's the song "Eat it" by Weird Al Yankovic.
Now - you might LIKE the song "Eat it" by Weird Al... but it jars you, because it doesn't really belong in your deep, dark, dank forest.
So to - for me - global chat doesn't belong. In a city, it's great. Out there in the wilds, it is, essentially, spam...
Gawd said:
Sevens said:
I was able to get groups long before EQ installed universal chat services, /guild chat is great for passing time while mat hunting..and so is /zone (/shout or /ooc). I never said removing universal chat would solve the problem but it is a step in the right direction. I never said I was against the free trials, just that I hope they consider all aspects of how it will impact paying customers when they design it...but I am 100% in favor of "banning more people" if you buy gold...banned, if exploit...banned. Now I also understand from a financial point of view this may not be best in short term but I do believe for the longevity of the game it sure is.
i have played a few games where they tried to ban players for buying gold. the trouble with that is that the only way they can do it is to track the suspect gold. this Always causes innocent players to get caught up in the net. would you like to be banned because you sold some crafted armor to a gold seller on the AH? cuz i have. it took two days to clear up the mishap and i lost out completely on the crafted armor because the suspect gold was removed from my account when it got reinstated. this is the reason i stopped playing archeage.
Just because you could get groups before universal chat doesnt mean that universal chat is not more efficient. also for the sake of not having competition and claiming problems i tend to hunt mats in unpopulated or low population areas. so /zone /shout /ooc dont do me any good in those situations unless i just want to hold a conversation with myself. /guild is ok but that tends to have a very shallow pool of thought. eventually everyone knows where each other stands on every subject and there is no use to talking anymore. also i tend ot play at off peak hours, meaning that unless there is a scheduled event i probably only have like 2 or 3 guildies on at the same time as me. besides if there is no universal chat the gold sellers will just park several toons in all the high population areas and spam in all the local channels. there really is no point in getting rid of a useful tool just because some people use it for nefarious purposes.
I dunno Gawd, in certain modern day games, I usually talk to my guildies, because there are too many trolls and unlikeable people dominating universal chat. To each their own.
And if its really too obnoxious to be an audience to, I disengage universal chat. :)
Oh and re gold sellers/spammers. Something I witnessed in Rift. Main city, level 2 characters parked at the mail box. Everyone that has the misfortune to go by this gold seller robot, gets their character name on a list for spamming. Those are the ones I report immediately to the powers that be, for removal ...or whatever the CSRs do with them. Its usually particular guilds that employ this tactic, so if you can track down the guild you can report them too.
Gold farmers/sellers/power levellers...scammers need to be kept scrambling. Otherwise they spend most of their time ruining your immersion, telling you can't visit "their" dungeons ( they take over dungeons, saw this in Lineage II) and generally hogging content that a normal player would like to access. I've seen, experienced this behaviour MANY times over the years, and therefore have NO qualms about reporting someone who is attempting to ruin my gaming experience for me that I have paid money for.
If you aren't part of the solution you're part of the problem...in my books :)
IMHO there should always be at least one GM in game monitoring chat (and there for helping/support) . As soon as a gold seller spams his message... *BAN* .... it would be too much trouble for gold sellers to keep making accounts and getting everything set up just to be instantly banned , they would stop there antics of spamming the chat . I never understood why so many games didn't always have one or two GMs on at all time. If the company is trying to cut costs and don't want to pay GMs, I am sure there would always be plenty of volunteers who would be qualified and up for the task. This wouldn't stop gold sellers from sending you personal tells, but this would be more trouble for only single target tells, plus there could be a /report function that auto takes a screenshot of the chat and sends it to whichever GM/GMs are on at the time and they can once again insta-ban. All it takes is always having a GM or two on.
One other thing about gold farmers...we had them in the Ettenmoors, in LOTRO, I played a pvp spider there for about 6 months. We loved gold farmers, FREE POINTS, thing is they would park their little farmer in a corner somewhere and let it do its work. Nobody at the keyboard...of course. :) As pvp "creeps" we would make the rounds of the Ettenmoors every day, several times a day and kill them all off.
Sweet revenge. :) Too bad we can't kill them off in other games. lol
Jason said:
IMHO there should always be at least one GM in game monitoring chat (and there for helping/support) . As soon as a gold seller spams his message... *BAN* .... it would be too much trouble for gold sellers to keep making accounts and getting everything set up just to be instantly banned , they would stop there antics of spamming the chat . I never understood why so many games didn't always have one or two GMs on at all time. If the company is trying to cut costs and don't want to pay GMs, I am sure there would always be plenty of volunteers who would be qualified and up for the task. This wouldn't stop gold sellers from sending you personal tells, but this would be more trouble for only single target tells, plus there could be a /report function that auto takes a screenshot of the chat and sends it to whichever GM/GMs are on at the time and they can once again insta-ban. All it takes is always having a GM or two on.
I would DEFINITELY volunteer for that. Not full time, of course..gotta play Pantheon! :D