You are deep within a dungeon in a group that took you ages to get together. You are having a great time. Suddenly your only tank or only healer *dings* and gains a level. Now there is a level gap that prevents certain or all people in the group from getting XP . Your tank or healer who just dinged informs your group that they must regretfully leave because of the XP situation and there are no other tanks or healers around to take their place. You cry as your group breaks up for the night. Could or should this be able to be prevented ?
In Vanguard when this happened a person in your group could mentor someone of lower level than them and temporarily become that level . Some games like Rift had this and let you keep all of your higher level abilities and armor, but they were simply reduced in power. Other games only allowed you to then use the abilities of your newly lower level, and other games didn't allow you to mentor at all.
What are you in favor of ?
POLL:
https://www.pantheonrotf.com/polls/view/212/mentoring-yea-or-nay
Edit: Would you like to see a "turn off xp" button at least or in addition to this ? Then a person could at least delay dinging for the greater benefit of the group.
I am all for it. Anything that makes it easier to find a group is something I support. The inability to find a group because of low populations was a large reason why I quiet Vanguard and while mentoring did not avoid that fate for me in Vanguard it was one of the only means for me to flesh out a group towards the end.
I m in the minority on this topic but I do not think Mentoring or level limiting should be allowed in any way other than a hard cap on levels. If that party members dings and no one else gains xp then the group leader should have been more careful in observing what the level ranges are. It is a hard lesson but one that is inevitable. I played VG but never really needed a group to play. I do NOT want that kind of gameplay for Pantheon.
I would like to see a VG style mentoring system, it helped a lot, not only by keeping groups together but it also allowed Veterans to help newbies and I think in a game like Pantheon that is going to be heavily group oriented, a mentoring system is going to be important.
It would have to have a similar scaling system to VG too though, so it does not become overpowered and allow higher levels to steam roll and farm lower level content with ease.
My question though, do you want this in at launch or is this something for later down the road once the game has a large enough playerbase that this system is needed/wanted? if it is in at launch then this is just another WoW lite game. If it comes in 3 or 4 expansions down the road then let us cross that bridge when we get there...
Sogotp said:
My question though, do you want this in at launch or is this something for later down the road once the game has a large enough playerbase that this system is needed/wanted? if it is in at launch then this is just another WoW lite game. If it comes in 3 or 4 expansions down the road then let us cross that bridge when we get there...
I disagree with this sentiment greatly. I think having group orient game play and balance, no blinky quest of "Collect 20 Skunk Sacks", and game content prior to end game is more than to distinguish it from WoW. I also think the smaller the population of the game the more important having a mechanism like this is. I tried the Mentoring in WoW, VG, and EQ2 from both sides and the problem with Wow is that it isn't balanced right and its more akin to power leveling. Which I guess begs the question of what we think mentoring is. I remember in the original EQ when you couldn't find a group and someone in your guild was a higher level than you they would simply sit there and heal you to power level you. I don't think thats what anyone here is suggesting mentoring become but instead make it something that broadens the pool of people available for a group making it easier to find and create full groups.
I should also add that if mentoring is not included at launch I would not be too disappointed. Its a hard thing to do and only worth doing if it is done very well.
Though on a side note I do think allowing the EQ style power leveling should be allowed.
Sogotp said:
My question though, do you want this in at launch or is this something for later down the road once the game has a large enough playerbase that this system is needed/wanted? if it is in at launch then this is just another WoW lite game. If it comes in 3 or 4 expansions down the road then let us cross that bridge when we get there...
I dunno how having it at launch would automatically make it a WoW-lite game . I would like to see it at launch *if* adding features such as this doesn't delay the release of the game. If so, then I could wait for said features. Same applies to crafting. The reason I would like to have it at launch are because of examples such as what I wrote in the beginning of the thread. What if your only healer or tank dings and then the group is basically forced to break up because of the level spread being too great ? At the very least, I would like to have a turn off xp button like VG did so if you want to be selfless you can delay yourself dinging for the benefit of the group and your continued fun.
The game should have a system in place for some type of Mentoring. Any game that comes out should have the basic core game functions before they are released and this is one of them. Developers don't lose players because you want to release a game early. Add things like looking for group, and guild windows that actually have useful tools. These are just two examples that I've seen in games that have been out for years and still don't have. These are basic tools that should be in any game no matter the budget before the game is released.
I say no, having a mentor system will allow people to powerlvl toons. Even if u scale down the power of the one mentoring, then its not goona be a fair system anyways. And here is why. a lvl 40 mentors a lvl 1, the lvl one might not have any spells or any good gear, the lvl 40 one on the other hand will have lots of spells and good gear, so even if u scale down the power of spells and gear the one mentoring will still be far more powerful then the mentor target. The situation that u talk about can and probaly will accur, but when u build ur group u should pay attention to the lvl cap between the group members and build it around that. Mentoring is an easy abuse system to powerlvl other toons and kinda ruins the game. People here talked about Wow,Rift and Eq2. I played eq2 for 6 years and the mentoring system in that game didnt work at all. I could 2 box dungeons just because i had a high lvl tank with raid gear, when he mentored my lower lvl toon he was still WAY too powerful for that lvl and u could just run in and grab whole rooms with mobs, because u had access to high lvl spells that even when scaled down was way too powerful.
Westermann said:
I say no, having a mentor system will allow people to powerlvl toons. Even if u scale down the power of the one mentoring, then its not goona be a fair system anyways. And here is why. a lvl 40 mentors a lvl 1, the lvl one might not have any spells or any good gear, the lvl 40 one on the other hand will have lots of spells and good gear, so even if u scale down the power of spells and gear the one mentoring will still be far more powerful then the mentor target. The situation that u talk about can and probaly will accur, but when u build ur group u should pay attention to the lvl cap between the group members and build it around that. Mentoring is an easy abuse system to powerlvl other toons and kinda ruins the game. People here talked about Wow,Rift and Eq2. I played eq2 for 6 years and the mentoring system in that game didnt work at all. I could 2 box dungeons just because i had a high lvl tank with raid gear, when he mentored my lower lvl toon he was still WAY too powerful for that lvl and u could just run in and grab whole rooms with mobs, because u had access to high lvl spells that even when scaled down was way too powerful.
It still can work very well, the scaling system that I spoke of was used in VG and all spells and abilities over the level that you mentored down too, were locked and could not be used.
Example, level 50 mentored down to level 23, their uber level 50 heal with an aug or special upgrade is rendered completely useless and is blacked/faded out on their bar and cannot be used, or if it is a heal that has been part of a series of upgrades, it will revert back to the closest heal under level 23. So only heals and spells/abilities learned prior to level 23 will be highlighted and able to be used, possibly with a very slight regen or bonus depending on aug's, enhancements, enchants, equipped effects etc but nothing gamebreaking, it is actually very minor.
Your armour and stats all get reduced to level appropriate portions too so the only bonus to mentoring for the person that is higher level, is Equipped Effects (EEs) and any enhanced spells, augs in weapons/armour etc but to be honest, that didn't ruin anything at all, it was fun, it kept groups together, friends together, guilds together and people got to group with friends of different levels, guildies could help new members, veterans could help new players...it encouraged positive interactions which was great for the community and the game as a whole.
There is no PvP so there is no real issues with being ever so slightly more powerful and the mentors will have to of already leveled through that content in the first place so helping someone else through it with an ever so slight advantage is not game breaking or going to ruin anyone else's experience, it certainly won't affect you or me if a max level mentores down to help a newbie with a bit of extra HP/Mana etc...
The pros far outweigh any cons for a system like this, although it still will need to be balanced properly with a scaling system so the stats and ratings do actually scale properly to the level of the person being mentored but apart from that, it will be great for this community.
Westermann said:
I say no, having a mentor system will allow people to powerlvl toons. Even if u scale down the power of the one mentoring, then its not goona be a fair system anyways. And here is why. a lvl 40 mentors a lvl 1, the lvl one might not have any spells or any good gear, the lvl 40 one on the other hand will have lots of spells and good gear, so even if u scale down the power of spells and gear the one mentoring will still be far more powerful then the mentor target.
One way to combat the spells would be to make all spells higher then the level mentored down to unavailable.
So if it is say a 5 level grouping range at level 1 then the mentor would be level 5. Yes more powerful then the level 1 but no different if a real level 5 grouped with a level 1. Only thing would be the armour / weapon issue. They could solve this by having a "average" gear stats for what ever level you mentor down too. Since the mentor would possibly be at the higher end of the grouping level range (eg if person is 35 the mentor is 40) then they would have average level 40 gear which would still be potentially quite a bit better then the level 35 person. It would only be a real problem if the group start taking on level 42+ mobs since the mentor would have average level 40 gear rather then top of the line level 40 gear if he was level 40 himself and had got the good gear.
Boulda said:
Westermann said:
I say no, having a mentor system will allow people to powerlvl toons. Even if u scale down the power of the one mentoring, then its not goona be a fair system anyways. And here is why. a lvl 40 mentors a lvl 1, the lvl one might not have any spells or any good gear, the lvl 40 one on the other hand will have lots of spells and good gear, so even if u scale down the power of spells and gear the one mentoring will still be far more powerful then the mentor target.
One way to combat the spells would be to make all spells higher then the level mentored down to unavailable.
So if it is say a 5 level grouping range at level 1 then the mentor would be level 5. Yes more powerful then the level 1 but no different if a real level 5 grouped with a level 1. Only thing would be the armour / weapon issue. They could solve this by having a "average" gear stats for what ever level you mentor down too. Since the mentor would possibly be at the higher end of the grouping level range (eg if person is 35 the mentor is 40) then they would have average level 40 gear which would still be potentially quite a bit better then the level 35 person. It would only be a real problem if the group start taking on level 42+ mobs since the mentor would have average level 40 gear rather then top of the line level 40 gear if he was level 40 himself and had got the good gear.
I understand your concern but as I mentioned in my previous post Boulda, in a scaled mentor system, the level 40 you speak of, would not have those spells and abilities to rely on, they would be restricted to their classes level 1 spells and their entire hot bar would be greyed/blacked out and unusable except for any level 1 abilities/spells they have learned.
The only possible bonus would be equipped effects from gear giving them a slight HP/Mana or regen advantage but it would be negligible. A level 1 would only benefit from the company of a mentored character by having that characters support whether it be added heals, dps, crowd control or tanking, it would not be gamebreaking by any means but that is something that would need to be tested and balanced properly during alpha/beta phases.
The mentor system in VG brought you down to that person's exact level and removed the ability to use any spells/abilities above that level no matter how well geared you were or how many spells you had, if you were under the level required to use them, you would be restricted from using them, which helped balance the system quite nicely.
Mentoring in a system like the one in Vanguard vs. the one in EQ2 doesn't power level a character it's almost exactly like leveling another character. This is a very useful game implementation. Like Kilsin mentioned above this helps people keep interested in the game which allows more people to want to continue playing. A lot of players hate alts and dislike leveling another character especially when you are trying to maintain the same level as your buddy who is leveling a brand new character. You will more then likely find it impossible to stay within level range as your friend who just started playing and still be active in your guild events. Mentoring allows you to still take the time to help your buddy and be online to support your guild when you need to without leveling a brand new character or swapping out toons to support your guild when they need you.
I am for the most part for mentoring. It's not perfect, but it beats losing groups or not having them and I am sure it could be done in a way that keeps the higher person who is mentoring down from being overly powerful. With that said, those of you who are against it, what if there was a limit to how many levels a person could mentor down ? Say, 5 levels ? That way, if a person is close to the same level as his group mates but then dings and is too high to continue grouping, he or she could continue playing with them.
Jason said:
With that said, those of you who are against it, what if there was a limit to how many levels a person could mentor down ? Say, 5 levels ? That way, if a person is close to the same level as his group mates but then dings and is too high to continue grouping, he or she could continue playing with them.
I was thinking the same thing but maybe up to 10 levels or something that scales because the equipment difference might not be that big. That being said I dont really have an issue with the idea of equipment mis-balance. It is no different than someone twinking out their alt which was a lot of fun in EQ.
IF this is going into the game then I would rather have a toggle for it that way when I turn it off no one can mentor me and I can't mentor anyone. The way I see this is, it is just a way to Powerlevel friends, guildies, and others. I suspect that there will be a group of people that play this game just to be the first to do things. First to max level, first to find uber item XXX, first to get Guide/GM/Dev custom items, etc... to me this kind of mentoring system falls right in line with helping those of much higher level be selective with who is able to do what in the game. Next I assume people are going to want to include bonuses to xp for a specific time for resting in taverns, inns, homes, etc. I used to be that way but after a lot of evaluations and researching I have realized that some things regardless of how good they appear to be for the game are just game killers.
It can't be forced onto you Sogotp. It is like offering to trade someone or sending them a group/raid invite, you can decline it or you can use game options to turn the invites off.
I am unsure how you guys still see it as a "power level" option, did you understand my posts explaining it above? I would be happy to clarify something if it didn't make sense.
There is no way to power level, all of your skill/abilities/spells/buffs etc past the mentored level are restricted and cannot be used. So you are essentially de-leveled to that person's level.
A level 50 mentoring to say level 22 would be restricted to their class abilities/spells/buffs from level 1-22, anything that they learned from level 23-50 would be unavailable for them to use. So now they are reduced to abilities that they learned a long time ago when they were leveling up, plus all their stats get scaled down to level 22 from 50, so there is no way for them to power level anyone or be OP, it is a very fair system that if done properly will help the community and the game quite a lot.
Ultimately the Devs can control this and restrict is as needed to make it fair and balanced, so there really is nothing to worry about.
Are you guys referring to WoW or some other instant gratification game that did it wrong? Or are there other experiences that you are referring too? Did you guys play VG and use the mentor system?
One of the only instances I can think off the top of my head is EQ2. You weren't a GOD while being a mentor but you were very powerful compaired to the mentee.
Vanguard had a very good mentor system. Like I mentioned above it's not power leveling being a mentor allows you to play with your friends who are picking up the game. By allowing me to help them level up (Not power leveling this isn't EQ) it keeps me interested and we are both gaining something from the group. This is way better then me trying to level up an alt character and staying within the same level range as my friends main character. Most games only allow you to have so many alts. I have tons of friends from previous games, real life, and new ones I meet everyday. I don't feel like or will I have room to make an alt every time one of them picks up the game. Mentoring allows me a system that is fair and not overpowered to help them without the requirement of me leveling multiple characters.
If you guys are against something please give references to which games you have played with a mentoring system. Tell us about the system positives and negatives.
For example
EQ2 had a mentoring system. You could mentor in this game. Gear and abilities were way too over powered. The mentor wasn't a GOD but it would really take some dumb mistakes in order to kill the mentor.
Vanguard had a mentoring system. You could only use the abilities you received at the level you were mentoring down to. The gear would also be reduced by a certain percentage in line with the level you mentored down too. The system was pretty balanced and your gear might have been = to best gear available at that level depending on the gear you currently wear.
Anytime somebody helps a new person level is pretty much essentially power leveling. They have already played the game to max level and know exactly where to go, what to do, and how to play.
I like the idea of greying out the spells if someone mentors down, but what about skills? If this game goes with the Eq style of skills, then a high lvl would still have things like double attack and dual weild.
And lets talk about gear, yes u can scale them down to the lvl that is being mentored, but that meens that the devs would need to put in alot of work on the gear since u would need probaly around 40ish different version of that gear depending on how low u mentor. I would say just skip it at launch. Do we really think that there will be problems getting people to group with within ur lvl range?
But thats just my opinion.