Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

A game or THE game ?

    • 228 posts
    October 17, 2018 12:58 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Oh wow this is an old thread.

    Where I'm at - when I first heard about Pantheon, I was hoping it would be THE game.

    However, as time has gone on, and I've thought a lot more about it, and honestly learned more about myself in the process, I've realized that Pantheon isn't my ideal game.  Don't get me wrong - I'm still very much looking forward to Pantheon.  I will play at launch, and hopefully for several years.  I'm hoping for 3-5 years out of it.  But at least right now, I don't think it will be a forever game for me.

    That's not a negative on Pantheon at all. I truly believe that Pantheon will be an amazing experience, and that it will do a lot of things right and help really move the genre forward for the first time in a decade.  That's big and shouldn't be understated.  It's just that what I really, truly want is a world I can log into and continue to be a part of for many years.  And as much fun as I think Pantheon will be, I think that it's still going to be a little too much of a game and not enough of a world to last that long for me.

    I could be wrong, of course.  There's still so much we don't know.  I just feel like right now, with the conventions that Pantheon is following, there will be an end date for me personally.  It will be time well spent, but when it's all said and done, I'll need something more than Pantheon will be able to provide.

    @Nephele: Even though you're not being very specific, I sense that we see it in much the same way.

    Based of what I've watched and read since I learned about Pantheon a few months back, it appears that it will be a modernized, more challenging version of all that Vanguard could and should have been, with a few innovative goodies like Perception thrown in. Vanguard was by far the best game I've played, so that's not a bad target at all.

    In the end, however, the game itself is not all. For me, the deciding factor wil be the community. If we can build a world together where competition is always friendly and people generally like to help each other, and if I manage to build some virtual friendships in Terminus, I might stay there for years or even decades.

    • 696 posts
    October 17, 2018 7:36 AM PDT

    ^ Agreed.

     

    What amazes me about EQ was the community. It was a very basic game at its core, but because there were not a lot of QOL mechanics the community would step in to provide that in some way. This in turn made the EQ community shine. So the community, no matter how good the gameplay is, is crucial in an mmorpg. I only played WoW for a very long time because I knew soo many good people and had a great guild that I didn't need to go outside of that. Once the guild kind of disbanded and people quit I was left searching for another group only to find how truly toxic the WoW community, and blizzard community in general, was. Huge turn off and made me quit for awhile. Only reason I went back is because my brother and 5 of his friends that I know irl are playing and soo it's kind of fun again with them.

    I went back in P99 like a year ago and played a paladin and one of the first encounters I had was someone running by me and gave me 3 pieces of Ro gear and told me to pass it on to the next paladin when I replaced that gear. P99 still has that magic that EQ had back in the day with the community. So I hope, since a lot of EQ people are comming to pantheon, that we can replicate that magical community EQ had again for the newer players that join also.


    This post was edited by Watemper at October 17, 2018 7:37 AM PDT
    • 1785 posts
    October 17, 2018 7:50 AM PDT

    Jabir said:

    @Nephele: Even though you're not being very specific, I sense that we see it in much the same way.

    Based of what I've watched and read since I learned about Pantheon a few months back, it appears that it will be a modernized, more challenging version of all that Vanguard could and should have been, with a few innovative goodies like Perception thrown in. Vanguard was by far the best game I've played, so that's not a bad target at all.

    In the end, however, the game itself is not all. For me, the deciding factor wil be the community. If we can build a world together where competition is always friendly and people generally like to help each other, and if I manage to build some virtual friendships in Terminus, I might stay there for years or even decades.

    I'll agree with you on Vanguard - Vanguard was a 3 year game for me (from launch), and it was only 3 years because I lost faith in SOE's ability to "finish" the game.  If Sigil hadn't gone under, and/or if Vanguard had shipped in a more complete state, I would have stuck with the game for at least 5 years before burning out.

    I would absolutely love it if Pantheon ends up feeling like Vanguard+.  However, I don't know that just doing that alone would make it a forever game for me because I feel like more is needed.  As well, I have concerns that it will even truly get that far.  They may be silly concerns and they may not matter to most people, but I'll list them out.

    I'll also agree with you that community is a huge factor.  I've played games that were kind of terrible for a long time because they had good communities.  And I've bailed on games that would have been a lot of fun just because the community was so toxic and terrible.

     

    Here's some specifics about my take on things right now and my personal points of concern:

    Pantheon compared to Vanguard

    - Vanguard had very unique and distinct classes that made playing different characters a lot of fun - I think Pantheon is on the right track here as well, though I'd also like to see real diversity within classes and so far, I'm not sure that's going to happen.

    - Vanguard had what felt like a huge world, where travel was very meaningful and places seemed far away because of the large amounts of open space between different points of interest.  I think Pantheon is trying to achieve a large world, but that there's potentially too much a focus on filling every available part of every zone with content, resulting in no real room to breathe.

    - Vanguard had an emphasis on providing content for both small groups and full groups and systems (like dot ratings on mobs) to help support that.  Pantheon is headed in a different direction which I feel may make it harder for small groups or nonstandard group makeups to function.  Lots of years of MMOs have taught me that friends are more important than having the perfect group makeup, and so I worry that if the game is seen as requiring a perfect group makeup, it will hurt people's ability to enjoy content together.  There needs to be wiggle room.

    - Vanguard had a very well-defined and integrated vision for crafting and harvesting, which Pantheon currently seems to lack.  A robust and well-integrated crafting/harvesting sphere is something that helps make the game feel a lot more like a world, which is important to me for longevity.  I worry that what we're going to get in Pantheon isn't going to have enough depth, or is going to feel tacked-on - and also, that it will have several of the flaws that have plagued other level-based MMOs over time.

    - Vanguard shipped with additional "world" features such as housing, guild halls, and diplomacy.  While these were not fully implemented and could have been even better than they were, they were still part of Vanguard's vision and that made the game feel a lot larger as a result.  Even though the team has said they'd like to tackle housing post-launch for Pantheon, and Brad has said he'd like to take another run at diplomacy sometime in the future, I worry that by not having these as part of the design up front (even if implementation waits till after launch), they will either never materialize, or they will end up feeling tacked-on and not really feel like part of the core game.

    - Finally, something that Vanguard didn't do well either but that I think is really important:  There needs to be meta-content to keep people going for years.  Eventually, players will complete every quest and see every dungeon, or at least the ones that matter.  If there's not something more to keep us active in the world once that occurs, we'll start to feel like we've finished the game, or we're just waiting for the next expansion.  It's critical that the game provide larger goals for us that get us to keep playing.  These could be special storylines that we pick up and take part in at high level, or repeatable content systems, or achievement- or exploration-based reward systems (ideally, all of the above), but there needs to be something more than just quests and dungeons.  Because it's simply not possible for the developers to build new content faster than players can consume it.

    I realize that all of that probably sounds a bit negative and so I want to say that I think Pantheon is still going to be a good game even if all my fears come true.  But I hope that the team can find ways to address those concerns - because for me, those things would be the difference between a good game that I can play for years, and an amazing game that I can play for decades.

    • 646 posts
    October 17, 2018 8:12 AM PDT

    I tend to agree with Nephele on this one. So far, there are some things keeping Pantheon from being added to my list of "Definitely will play for forever" games.

    - Potential lack of things to do when I can't/don't want to find a full 6-person group. I like just playing with my husband a lot, and if that proves impossible due to the tuning of mobs or lack of scaling content (and since they stubbornly anti-instanced dungeon, scaling content is unlikely), then we're not likely to stick around.

    - Lack of variety in leveling. I have no desire to grind mobs for 50 levels. That's best left to cheap Korean MMOs.

    - Additional fluff features outside of combat and crafting. MMOs need depth of content. Housing is a big one that I enjoy (see my posts in another thread) and that can occupy me for days at a time. But any kind of side pursuits/features really help flesh out a game experience. I share Nephele's concern that not planning for these features from the beginning will make them exponentially more difficult to implement properly in the future.

    • 752 posts
    October 17, 2018 8:14 AM PDT
    For me: Pantheon will be the game i delete EQ from my computer for. I do want to mess around on the vanguard emu server once its up and running as a secondary.
    • 3016 posts
    October 17, 2018 8:17 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    I tend to agree with Nephele on this one. So far, there are some things keeping Pantheon from being added to my list of "Definitely will play for forever" games.

    - Potential lack of things to do when I can't/don't want to find a full 6-person group. I like just playing with my husband a lot, and if that proves impossible due to the tuning of mobs or lack of scaling content (and since they stubbornly anti-instanced dungeon, scaling content is unlikely), then we're not likely to stick around.

    - Lack of variety in leveling. I have no desire to grind mobs for 50 levels. That's best left to cheap Korean MMOs.

    - Additional fluff features outside of combat and crafting. MMOs need depth of content. Housing is a big one that I enjoy (see my posts in another thread) and that can occupy me for days at a time. But any kind of side pursuits/features really help flesh out a game experience. I share Nephele's concern that not planning for these features from the beginning will make them exponentially more difficult to implement properly in the future.

     

    Hopefully you can see beyond just grinding mobs Naunet, there will be many, many more things to do than that...this won't be a game where everything happens "at the end".    Take time to smell the roses, learn new things,  new skills, explore, have fun with community members and guildies.     This isn't an assembly line game where you do the same things over and over.    "Games don't grind, people do."  :)

    Cana

    • 646 posts
    October 17, 2018 8:21 AM PDT

    CanadinaXegony said:Hopefully you can see beyond just grinding mobs Naunet, there will be many, many more things to do than that...this won't be a game where everything happens "at the end".    Take time to smell the roses, learn new things,  new skills, explore, have fun with community members and guildies.     This isn't an assembly line game where you do the same things over and over.    "Games don't grind, people do."  :)

    The thing is, as their statements stand now... there won't be. There will be combat and crafting/gathering. That's it. There is the perception questing system, but signs point to quests not being common enough to actually use for leveling.

    Trust me, I am not one to focus on "the endgame". I'm generally months behind the leveling curve of any MMO because I take my time exploring every nook and cranny and spend ridiculous amounts of time roleplaying instead of playing the game. But this game isn't doing away with levels, and as such progression in levels will be necessary to enjoy the game to its fullest (to see additional content, to unlock new abilities, to be able to harvest different gathering nodes). When I do play the game, I don't want my only option to gain levels to be grinding mobs.

    • 1479 posts
    October 17, 2018 8:22 AM PDT

    @Nephele

     

    1) Classes : They seems really distinct, more than the few I played of Vanguard (Emu only, too late for real game), and sometimes maybe too specific (Direlord as an example, seems really specific).

    2) World : Yep, seems like it will be huge. No comment on breathing room, it's too unfinished yet to be judged.

    3) Group content : Dots are, I think, an UI QOL that goes against exploration and tryout. I don't really like thoses features that shows you "what you should be doing" even before you started.

    4) Crafting : Eh, yeah crafting and harvesting seems really primitive for now, but I think it's because it's not the main focus as combat and group content is the main core of the game. It will be shaped, slower than combat and later, but I'm sure they will surprise us, simply because they tried to do that for every aspect, race, and class of the game for new : Use old recipes with new fresh ingredients to tweak them with crucial differences.

    5) Additional features : I don't know how diplo should work with EQ-style factions. What should it bring ? Should it lessen the faction grind, that was really important and interconnected ? Should it give other benefits to the point it would be mandatory ? Should it block quest progression with diplomacy related rewards ? Don't forget the perception system that is meant to be a core side tennet of the game, that's a big additional feature as well.

    6) Meta content : Hard to tell for now...

    • 3016 posts
    October 17, 2018 8:48 AM PDT

    Naunet said:

    CanadinaXegony said:Hopefully you can see beyond just grinding mobs Naunet, there will be many, many more things to do than that...this won't be a game where everything happens "at the end".    Take time to smell the roses, learn new things,  new skills, explore, have fun with community members and guildies.     This isn't an assembly line game where you do the same things over and over.    "Games don't grind, people do."  :)

    The thing is, as their statements stand now... there won't be. There will be combat and crafting/gathering. That's it. There is the perception questing system, but signs point to quests not being common enough to actually use for leveling.

    Trust me, I am not one to focus on "the endgame". I'm generally months behind the leveling curve of any MMO because I take my time exploring every nook and cranny and spend ridiculous amounts of time roleplaying instead of playing the game. But this game isn't doing away with levels, and as such progression in levels will be necessary to enjoy the game to its fullest (to see additional content, to unlock new abilities, to be able to harvest different gathering nodes). When I do play the game, I don't want my only option to gain levels to be grinding mobs.

    Good, :) me too Naunet,  I am not one to keep up with the Jones,  I do my own thing unless guildies need me hehe  The game isn't finished yet, and from what I can gather,  more surprises in store,  hang onto your hat. :)  Oh and one more thing..referencing what Nephele spoke about..I loved Vanguard ..was very disappointed where SOE took that game,  they laid off the diplomacy Dev eventually..loved diplomacy,  and Nephele hinted at the VR Devs thinking about taking a run at that.   *fingers crossed*  :)

     

    Cana


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at October 17, 2018 8:50 AM PDT
    • 696 posts
    October 17, 2018 9:33 AM PDT

    Technically everything is a grind. Even quest hubs are considered grinding, just in a different form. Kill 10 of these and loot 10 of these...grinding. Intricate quests where you have to obtain items off of certain mobs and/or bosses...grinding...So to me you can't really escape grinding. So how fun they can make the grinding aspect will determine a lot of things.

    • 3016 posts
    October 17, 2018 9:38 AM PDT

    Watemper said:

    Technically everything is a grind. Even quest hubs are considered grinding, just in a different form. Kill 10 of these and loot 10 of these...grinding. Intricate quests where you have to obtain items off of certain mobs and/or bosses...grinding...So to me you can't really escape grinding. So how fun they can make the grinding aspect will determine a lot of things.

     

    I see it as a choice..sit in one spot kill the same thing over and over, or go out and adventure with friends, explore ..time passes so do exps.   All in how you do it.

     

    Cana

    • 696 posts
    October 17, 2018 9:45 AM PDT

    CanadinaXegony said:

     

    I see it as a choice..sit in one spot kill the same thing over and over, or go out and adventure with friends, explore ..time passes so do exps.   All in how you do it.

     

    Cana

    Yup.

    Both are under the umbrella of grinding, but how you approach it can vastly change your experience with it. I like adventuring with friends and I also like finding a cool area to set up camp and just hang out and pull. Also, if you come across a mob that you need something off of doesn't hurt to kill.

    • 2752 posts
    October 17, 2018 10:54 AM PDT

    This seems particularly relevant to the concerns above:

     

    Aradune said:

    Having other ways to advance your character be part of how we expand the game post-launch is a big part of the Grand Vision for the game.   I think we were on to something in VG, having the three spheres of advancement, adventuring, crafting, and diplomacy.   Making it so you can choose to focus on one or all three was really exciting.  Having different levels, so you could be a level 10 adventurer, level 8 diplomat, and level 5 crafter really broadened things and made the world more immersive and impactful.  The difference with Pantheon, however, is we've learned some very tough lessons about biting off more than we can chew as well as shoehorning in major features, not having enough time or resources to really do it right.   That's why we are determined to launch with an awesome adventuring game.   That's why we are so focused on getting that part of Pantheon correct and sufficiently fleshed out.  That's why the game at launch needs to stand on its own and feel complete.   

    So many other big plans we have for the game not only shouldn't be shoehorned in our rushed, but they also rely on having a solid adventuring game in place and FUN.   Much better to focus on getting one advancement path in place and *awesome* than to rush multiple advancement paths but not truly flesh any of them out so that they have the depth to keep people interested in months and years. 

    Again, could we put temporary and more simplistic options into the game, like simple instanced and cosmetic housing?  We could, but it would really conflict with how we are approaching the entire development of the game.  It's contrary to our core tenants and philosophy.   We want to do things right.  That's not to say things aren't implemented in building blocks and that every aspect of a system must be totally implemented before it's added to the game.  But it does mean that even the first building block has to be substantive enough that it doesn't become irrelevant, or rushed through, or something cool on the surface but when players dig deeper, there's little to nothing there.  It's why we're not sure we're going to ship with Bards.  We love Bards, and we could certainly include them superficially.   But what makes Bards, just as an example, so cool is how they play very differently than most classes.   They are not simple melee classes, nor are they simply another type of magic user.   

    Finally, we always love to under promise and over deliver.  Undoubtedly, we will have opportunities to exceed our initial goals, both at launch and afterwards.  In that sense, we don't feel like we're sticking ourselves into a box we cannot think outside of.   But nowadays, especially, you simply don't get second chances.  You don't get to dabble with something that may or may work out, or that may or may not have sufficient depth to become something that people truly involve themselves in and spend a lot time pursuing.  This is why we focused first on making a core, basic MMO and then making sure that core is FUN.   This is why we've held off on implementing and working on many of the more sophisticated and new features and ideas we have.   This is why managing expectations is so important to us.  If the opportunity arises where we can exceed the scope we've planned for, then great.   But if it doesn't work out, or something needs to be delayed, by not committing to a lot of this, especially by launch, we really achieve the best of both worlds.  Bottom line, we'd much rather surprise people and have things in the game that people didn't expect to be there.  at least not that early on.   

    I think we're getting better and better at being transparent and open with you guys while keeping a lot of things under wraps.  Game development is tricky, and MMOs the most challenging genre to develop within.  We are always discussing and planning out ways to increase awareness of the game.  We definitely know that hyping things within reason is what gets people excited and spreading the word about the game so that we launch with the kind of numbers we need to continue development, to be a profitable venture.  But we also know there's a fine line there that is easily crossed if we are not very careful.   It's why we do occasionally talk about the Grand Vision, the plans we have for the game after launch.  But it's also why we are careful to be as clear as possible that these ideas come later.  I myself have personally been guilty of over hyping games I'm working on simply because it's so much fun talking about the game as a whole, the game at launch, but then also the game 2, 5 or 10 years later!  On a personal level, I couldn't be more excited because in the past, for a variety of reasons, I've never been able to stay too long on an MMO after launch.   This means I and others on the team can really dream big and think really long term.  And not only is that fun and compelling for us, but it also makes sure that when we are working on the foundations that we architect systems, mechanics, database schemas, etc. where expanding things later on down the line doesn’t require significant restructuring or having to re-do work.  As I've mentioned many times, this team is amazing and we are in this for the long haul.  Pantheon at launch is like having a baby in RL -- it's an amazing thing and you can look down at your newborn and start dreaming about who this person will become as they age and become more mature.  So many things, however, simply take time.  Many of these systems not only take time, but they require a certain degree of momentum and a strong foundation architected such that we *can* build upon that foundation and implement ideas that have been literally running through our heads for years, even decades.   

    But that does mean we have to keep ourselves in check.  It does mean that we need to make sure what we launch with is a complete game in the sense that there aren't missing gaps, or something cool on the surface but when you dig deeper there's simply no depth to, where potential is limited because we didn't think it through.

    Hopefully that makes at least some sense -- let me know.

    • 646 posts
    October 17, 2018 11:11 AM PDT

    It's a great philosophy, however... 1) If they want to hold onto players long-term, they're going to need more than just combat and basic crafting/gathering. And 2) ALL I want out of housing is instanced, cosmetic creativity where we can manipulate decor on XYZ/rotation/resizing and build whatever we want. I don't want or need it to be any fancier than that, or involve any convoluted maintenance or defense or whatever. That they don't think this is "right" is rather depressing.


    This post was edited by Naunet at October 17, 2018 11:12 AM PDT
    • 1785 posts
    October 17, 2018 4:16 PM PDT

    Iksar, thanks for digging up the quote.  I definitely take Brad's words into account when trying to manage my expectations for Pantheon :)

    However, I also know that things change over time.  Reality takes hold - development teams have to prioritize.  Designs change along the way as ideas get tested, tweaked, thrown out, revamped, and brought back.  It's part of the process.  In any software development project, there are features that end up getting cut, or scaled back, because of time and available resources.  MMOs are no different.

    I posted my concerns primarily to help explain the stance I took in my first post in this thread.  I know that not everyone else will see things the same way or have the same concerns.  I've also tried to be very careful in my language - while these are worries or concerns that I have, they may or may not come to pass.  And so, at least for me, the sky isn't falling yet and no one needs to talk me off the ledge or anything :)

    However, the thread was about whether Pantheon can be "THE game" - which I took to mean a virtual world that I could keep playing for years and years, even once I'd seen everything and done the vast majority of the content.  At least for me, I'm really looking for a world to be a part of - not just a game.  A place where I can log in, see my friends, and simply enjoy this shared fantasy we all inhabit.  Combat and adventure are a big part of that ideal experience, but not all of it - not by a longshot.  There's more to making something that feels like a world than just having interesting classes and fun gameplay mechanics.  There's more to it than well-written lore and quests, or challenging dungeons or encounters.  Those things are important - very important - but if that's all there is, it's just a game.  And games end.  Maybe not for months or years, but they eventually do.

    If we want Terminus to be a world, not a game (Brad's words, if you'll recall), then there needs to be a design focus on all the other things that make that possible.  This isn't to say that the team should deprioritize adventuring gameplay, or not get that working first.  But there needs to be a plan, and everything needs to be designed to fit together well once it's done and in.  Combat, crafting, worldbuilding, class design, itemization, lore, quest writing, social systems, UI, achievements, rewards, everything.  Even topics like housing that we know have to come after launch should be at least loosely designed - so that the stuff that goes in at launch can take them into account.

    We all have things that we, personally and individually, feel are most important for us.  For some folks that's raids.  For others, character progression.  For others, the lore.  For me, what's really important to me is that Terminus feels like a fully fleshed-out world.  That it's different parts all fit together and support each other and feel equally important and useful and viable.  That players can be a part of that world in lots of different ways, whether that's as an adventurer, or something else.  I realize that is a really high bar.  I realize that development happens in stages, and that some stuff would absolutely have to happen after launch.  To me, that's ok, as long as when it does happen, it really feels like part of the world.

    Anyway I have soapboxed enough about this.  I'd love to see Brad post about where the vision of the game is today, as we approach PA4 and Alpha not far behind.  We've gotten great glimpses at combat and core adventuring gameplay from the streams now.  But we still don't know about how it all fits together and becomes part of a world, not really.  I'm hopeful we'll see more of that in the near future.

    • 3852 posts
    October 18, 2018 7:29 AM PDT

    Iksar - thank you for that quote which is right on point.

    Nephele - you are entirely correct that things change over time and Brad's view today may very possibly be different in some respects. I hope so - not because I disagree with it but because the good developers keep open minds and do not feel locked in to what they might have believed a year or two or four earlier.

    While the overarching comment that it is better to do one thing very well than three things in a mediocre manner is timeless - and hopefully hasn't changed - the opinion that all Pantheon should be is an adventuring game at launch with other things to come later must be affected by how much time there is until launch, how many people and resources are available, and what they can reasonably do in the time available.

    Perhaps Brad feels the same now. But perhaps he feels that given the current size of the team and the resources there is a bit more they can do on at least one other element such as crafting. Leaving any third element like diplomacy for later. 

    Naunet - I am more optimistic given the other things I have seen over the last 6 months. I think crafting and harvesting will be perhaps close to the exceptional level they reached in Vanguard if not equal or better. Even without group harvesting which was nice but not a critical aspect of the Vanguard system. I am not sure what Brad meant as applied to crafting and harvesting but I do not see where VR is going today as a skimpy placeholder crafting system without depth or much use because all they care about as of launch is the adventuring elements. On the other hand I do see a focus on tying it to the adventuring system and having adventure level more relevant to crafting than they  tried to make it in Vanguard. If *this* is what Brad meant - as I suspect - I can easily live with it if the crafting/harvesting system is otherwise good.

    Housing I agree with both Naunet and Brad. I do not see a need for anything too fancy such as maintenance or defense. But my memory of housing in Vanguard is that the method for building houses was very nice - using crafting - the houses themselves were quite primitive and with sadly few amenities. Even LOTRO housing that is not exactly state of the art was far better. I would rather see LOTRO or EQ2 quality housing in a year than Vanguard class housing at launch. Apologies to anyone at VR that may have designed the housing in Vanguard but I am sure as with the rest of the game it was rushed out before it was at all ready and given another 6 months or a year would have been so much better.


    This post was edited by dorotea at October 18, 2018 7:30 AM PDT
    • 1785 posts
    October 18, 2018 8:45 AM PDT

    Regarding housing, I still hold SWG's housing implementation up as the gold standard (yes, 15 years or so later), but EQ2's system for placing and decorating things within houses (as well as the variety of items you could get and place) was top notch, and other games using instanced housing have been cloning that system for years.  Vanguard had a really great idea with setting aside specific places in the world for housing to defeat sprawl - it just didn't have the community features like service buildings to truly achieve player towns.

    LOTRO and FFXIV both use instanced neighborhoods which is nice for look and feel but often doesn't promote a feeling of community unless you happen to get a bunch of guildmates/friends living in the same neighborhood.  Wildstar tried to fix this by individually instancing every house and making it easy for players to visit friends, as well as implementing a specific housing chat.  I think that helped slightly.  Another thing that Wildstar did really well was to make housing not just about the interior of the house but about the entire plot of land - to the point where you didn't even need a house, you could just build whatever you wanted.  EQ2 had the entrances to housing within NPC cities, which felt pretty good early in the game when those cities mattered, but not so much in later years when most players were basing out of whatever the latest quest hub was.  LOTRO and FFXIV have this problem as well with their NPC cities because of the quest hub design.

    The best housing system in my point of view?  A combination:  EQ2 style interior decorating, used with vanguard style construction and housing areas, and tied together with SWG style player town/city systems (and the ability to turn your house into a shop, complete with an NPC vendor to sell your stuff).  Bonus points if the housing areas can occupy sensible places in the world map that make them hubs for traveling adventurers once the town is established, instead of being tucked off to the side.  Further bonus points if the housing areas themselves can act as a content generator for repeatable content.

    It's been long established that at least for Pantheon, Housing would be an expansion level effort, which I think is a good thing.  That would mean the only requirement for launch to "do it right" would be to ensure that the land area for it is set aside in the world.

    Anyway that's my opinion on housing :)

    Edit to add:

    Just in case it's not obvious - I'm by no means arguing that Pantheon at launch needs to have housing (or diplomacy, or trade, or other big systems).  I think the only things required for Pantheon to launch and do well are a strong adventuring game, which we seem on track to get, and a well-integrated (and meaningful) crafting system, which I am less confident in right now.  Apart from that there just needs to be space set aside to support eventual housing, and hooks for any other systems such as a diplomacy system that might be added in expansions.

    What Pantheon can't do, in my opinion, is launch with just an adventuring game and then try to shoehorn in crafting later.  Crafting is so closely tied with itemization and adventuring that I feel like you have to build the two spheres side by side to really achieve something that meshes well.  If you don't set them up together, you end up with viability problems and/or economic problems down the road.

    There are a lot of other little things I'm not talking about that help promote longevity in the adventuring sphere that are also important, and little things to support social interaction between players, but I feel like those are requirements that need to be there for the game to succeed period, regardless of anything else that happens.


    This post was edited by Nephele at October 18, 2018 8:59 AM PDT
    • 844 posts
    October 18, 2018 9:29 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Vanguard had a really great idea with setting aside specific places in the world for housing to defeat sprawl - it just didn't have the community features like service buildings to truly achieve player towns.

    Not sure what you mean by service buildings, but most housing areas in Vanguard did have crafting workstations in a general location that the tenants used.

    • 1785 posts
    October 18, 2018 9:44 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    Nephele said:

    Vanguard had a really great idea with setting aside specific places in the world for housing to defeat sprawl - it just didn't have the community features like service buildings to truly achieve player towns.

    Not sure what you mean by service buildings, but most housing areas in Vanguard did have crafting workstations in a general location that the tenants used.

    Yeah, I was thinking beyond that.  Examples:  A community banker, a general NPC merchant, a stable or caravan station to support any sort of travel system that the game might have, an actual tavern building (not just someone's converted house), potentially with repeatable content features attached like bounty boards, etc, a market square for buying/selling, that sort of thing.

    Basically if you think about what it would take to make Vanguard's housing areas feel like a real NPC town, and then turn each of those into community buildings that players living there have to build and/or maintain.  The goal would be to have the housing area actually be a hub for players, just like NPC towns and cities are.  The NPC cities and towns should still be important for content purposes - quests and trainers, that sort of thing.  But, if you're out in the wilds and there's a player town nearby, you should be able to stop there to resupply, hit up the banker, do some crafting, and so on.

    • 844 posts
    October 18, 2018 9:45 AM PDT

    Here are the three houses I had in vanguard. I had three accounts. One house per account.

    Here is a shot of a player built guildhall.

     

    And hey, maybe one day we can have big boats. These were player made in Vanguard.

    • 3852 posts
    October 18, 2018 11:07 AM PDT

    ((What Pantheon can't do, in my opinion, is launch with just an adventuring game and then try to shoehorn in crafting later.  Crafting is so closely tied with itemization and adventuring that I feel like you have to build the two spheres side by side to really achieve something that meshes well.  If you don't set them up together, you end up with viability problems and/or economic problems down the road.))

     

    I very much agree.

    Some MMOs have had really weak crafting systems that may have been included just so that they could advertise that the game included crafting. I do not think that will play well to the target market here - we have a fairly high percentage of people that want crafting to be both interesting and relevant (useful). Many times one reads people here bemoaning the trashing of the initial EQ2 crafting system (which wasn't exactly perfect at any stage of development) and hoping for crafting and harvesting features from Vanguard.

    • 77 posts
    November 1, 2018 10:01 PM PDT

    THE game

    • 363 posts
    November 2, 2018 12:17 PM PDT

    Although I know, going in, that I will not be able to dedicate anywhere near the time to PROTF that I did to EQ1/2 and LOTRO, I truly anticipate this world to be my home for many years.

    • 49 posts
    November 4, 2018 12:01 PM PST
    For me just another game that will keep my attention for a few months or so. I find once I get to max level in a game I lose interest quickly.
    • 48 posts
    November 5, 2018 2:18 AM PST

    A game for me, probably. I don't plan to play any other MMOs, and nothing else on the horizon seems interesting, but at this point we know enough about Pantheon that I feel comfortable saying it is not the game I wanted it to be, but it is much better than the alternatives. Not exactly a better than nothing situation, I do still have interest in it, but if something else came along then all bets are off.