I'd be happy with a con system similar to EQ, but as I commented in the poll already, the system must not lie to the player. That is, a blue con mob should not behave like a yellow/red con mob...no undercons please.
All other information about the mob, like is it especially resistant, what abilities does it have, is it linked to other mobs, should be something for the player to observe and learn :)
I always considered that it would be more fun if it were skill based and not 100% accurate. If you con a particular mob type it does a check and if you fail your /con result is off up or down. Level difference could affect chances on the check, etc. Wrong con would be wrong for a set amount of time on that type of mob.
To get more accurate readings, the whole group may /con the mob and take the majority reading or some such, further incentivising group activity as a soloer would have no one to compare considerations with. It should work most of the time, but should be affected by stats, like intelligence and/or wisdom (perhaps even charisma) plus skill. Make some of those stats that no one cares about mroe useful.
Anyhow, not 100% dependable, but groups get more use out of it and all that.
What poll?
I think a CON system should have a degree of uncertainty. And I think gear(loot) related should be a part of that.
For example the mob itself could Con even, but if that mobs packing a +AC Breastplate it should be tougher than an even con.
If it's packing a +Haste Belt it should be faster.
If it has a weapon that has a proc then that should proc during the fight.
All these things could basically add up to the Mob appearing to be a surprising undercon. Expecially when that lighting bolt starts procking.
The basic "consider" feature should give a vague understanding of the enemies power. If you want more information then there should be ability and/or spells that can do that. For example, Rangers may have an innate ability to sense wildlife, and wizards may be able to cast spells that give information.
I mentioned it in another thread. Conning should only tell you something about the level. Just like you can be buffed and be much stronger, so should an NPC. It too could have an Ac/hp buff and a damage shield that would make it much harder for you to kill.
a newly spawned mob has no buffs, just like you dont when you come back from your "loading please wait..." just like a necromancer NPC can summon a pet, if you can get to him before he summons it, the easier the fight will be...etc.
Sarim said:Zorkon said:What poll?
Please note that this is a really old thread, which I think was partly lost in the archivation of the old site (along with the poll mentioned).
Correct and thank you!
Anything prior to Jan 1, 2015 was auto archived when we reset the forum skin back to default and made some tweaks. Back then we had a bunch of social media sections that actually took away from the community and did more harm, so they were cut in the process, polls were one of them as they promoted very biased and opinion driven polls that caused more arguments than they resolved :)
It would be nice if /con actually used a skill check.
This could be modified by (perhaps) perception or other skills (combat related) and/or race adjustments.
01-25 Very vague /con effect : +/- 10-20% inaccurate level estimation
26-80 Standard /con effect : 20% chance 0-1 'extra' info (disposition)
81-90 Standard /con effect : 35% chance 0-1 'extra' info (disposition)
91-100 Standard /con effect : 50% chance 1-2 'extra' info (disposition/resists)
101+ Insightful /con effect : 80% chance 1-2 'extra' info (disposition/resists/abils)
Any modifiers should be small compared to 'standard' /con.
In other words for anyone without training (perception etc) the /con would work pretty much exactly as they would expect ... but with (say) 1 in 4 chance of only 'vague' /con at lower levels. By level 20 this would be perhaps 1/8 chance and by level 50 down to 1/25.
(example) Modifiers might be:
Gnome : +3 vs any /con on 'magical' beast
knowledge : +1 to +5 based on each 100 mobs of that type killed
Research : +1 to +4 for books read about that mob type (Eg. anatomy or 'Janes Book of Hill Giants')
Perception : +1 to +5 dependent on ability
Class : +1 to +3 for matched class of NPC/Mob (Eg Wizzy /con'ing Wizzy Gnoll)
Might make it more interesting - particularly with regards to dispositions and psecialist mob types (Eg. mobs with Rogue abilities, resistances, eyes in their a$$ etc)
Evoras, thinks autopsies might become a thing...
Con should only describe what level the mob is in relation to you and if it's KOS to you or not.
I want to determine which mobs are stronger just by looking at them and their names.
If one Gnoll is slightly larger than the rest and has a weapon in its hand I should have to respect that and plan accordingly.
If there are 4 Gnolls all the same level and one is a Gnoll Gnasher and the others are Gnoll Underlings it's easy to figure out which ones tougher.
Con should not in any way describe how strong a mob is in regards to its level.
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
I think a con of the basic mob should be enough. Do not enhance the mob with details about it's armor,weapons or resist abilities. Unless you use the same data to issue exp or loot.
You are level 20 the mob is level 20. even con. If you use his armor as a guide then you should use your armor as a guide also. He has basic leather armor on and you have plate steel with + 20 to your resists. Then you should lose 20% of the experience and make him a blue con. The same goes for you wearing basic leather and he is clad in plate steel with + 20 to resists. You recieve 20% bonus for defeating him. These systems can get a little complicated. So i say a basic con system is all thats needed. You are both level 20 it is an even con,period.
@Isaya, it isn't as simple as that and never will be. As a level 90 Monk, I got duel requests somewhat regularly from other level 90s and my DPS and AC were so high that it rarely worked out well for the challenger (There was a Berserker that I knew that was better geared than me that got me with a reposte skill. That worked once).
My point is that same level doesn't mean "equal". Or at the very least, some are more equal than others. And, frankly, one shouldn't ever have a perfect reading from a /command. It is a tool to "consider" how likely one might win this out. The rest comes from observation and experience. A level 50 rat simply isn't likely to be as had as a level 50 Orc Devestater. But then there might be a level 50 Ben, King of the Rats, you'll need an army to beat this enemy (though probably he'd be at least level 55 in a level 50 zone, but that's a game design discussion not comparison of white /con's).
Insightful,Haven't thought about that Dragonfist,infact solidifies my belief that level indications are of little value
The fact that it is a rat ,or orc should be enough for the player to decide if they want to take on the risk or not.Nothing worthwhile is easy or without a risk
Angrykiz said:If one Gnoll is slightly larger than the rest and has a weapon in its hand I should have to respect that and plan accordingly.
Also for duels,there might be higher chances that other players would accept duels without level usage
With levels they often hold back;How many players of level 10 would accept a duel from a level 50 unless they have a deathwish,for example?
I think without levels a lot more people would more inclined to accept duels.
Because they would need to access the situation for themselves.And accept that greater reward involves greater risk.
If someone carries a dragonskull hammer ,it is a good indication that it won't be easy .
Let the trophies and epic artifacts mobs (and players) carry send out the message how badass they are,not the levels
As always great suggestions Evoras
I wonder if there will be a moral system that buffs mobs after they successfully defeated x amount of players too (or low moral causing them penalties with major defeats)
And which effect would the climate have on the resistance of certain mobs.Would mobs in their own habitat gain a boon?
Highly disagree on visuals/equipment doing the talking. Bigger doesn't mean stronger or otherwise better, nor does an axe over a dagger or fist. For all you know that rat is highly intelligent and lightning fast, capable of taking out far larger foe.
If there is a consider system then it should be reliable. I get that the game is supposed to be hard but making risks exceptionally harder to assess is, IMO, a bad design idea when death (potentially) takes much from you. It's one of those things players should have a decent amount of information about, like health. Or hey, let's get rid of mob HP bars...and player HP/Mana bars while we are at it. Lets make it so you have to really look at a player and guess how wounded they are by their animations. Or if you have mana or are exhausted and look drained.
Oh <3 lets have a hunt for that intelligent rat nobody expected.The whole place chasing a smart rat,that would be exciting
Unlike when the game would give away which the intelligent rat to target is(showing all the info on the rat).That would be dull
They could make a ratking stand out.But that spoils the fun in this situation I think :D
HP is needed to consider if you want to continue fight ;flee,chase.To access the situation during combat. If we could leave all bars behind and replace them with animation cues ,it would be more immersive and exciting.But I don't think it is a feasible option,very unfortunately
It would have to be clear when mobs get a power up ;like when they gain a bonus because they fight in their own habitat.
Or up/down wings when a change in moral occurs
The frame of the mob can indicate how hard it is going to be too
Maybe a well buffed mob could take on a posture too? one that radiates determination,heroism ,or certain imbalance when ailments and penalties set in? Like how you see a typical druk NPC run by and instantly know. Just thinking on possible cues here that could be feasible
A fire elemental in his own habitat could be wrapped up in more flames ,compared to a fire elemental that is not on home terrain.That would tell the player;beware this elemental is stronger.
Iksar said:Highly disagree on visuals/equipment doing the talking. Bigger doesn't mean stronger or otherwise better, nor does an axe over a dagger or fist. For all you know that rat is highly intelligent and lightning fast, capable of taking out far larger foe.
If there is a consider system then it should be reliable. I get that the game is supposed to be hard but making risks exceptionally harder to assess is, IMO, a bad design idea when death (potentially) takes much from you. It's one of those things players should have a decent amount of information about, like health. Or hey, let's get rid of mob HP bars...and player HP/Mana bars while we are at it. Lets make it so you have to really look at a player and guess how wounded they are by their animations. Or if you have mana or are exhausted and look drained.
I, personnally, think that some visual cues aren't bad, but can also be misleading and that is fine. Eventually, you are just going to have to find out for yourself. And that is part of the fun, frankly. I was able to solo red cons up until level 10 or 12 or so and then found out the hard was that I was going to have to stick to yellows, which quicking became whites then blues then light blues and finally greens until I got better gear. Which took a group to get. Eventually learned to have an idea whether a red was something my group could handle or not depending on zone and mob type, etc. It was part of the game. I'd like for /con to give potentially more accurate information but for it be be based more on RPG skill rather than a straight scale. But I'll be fine with the old con system. I do NOT want to be spoon fed all the info I need to kill something. I want that sense of trepidation. And I want the sense of accomplishment when I sort it out and know the mobs in a zone, etc.
I'm tired of games that I can snooze through the combat areas and collect xp and quest targets and move on to the next hub. Let me and my buddies hunt mobs. Learn the hard way what mobs will wipe the floor with us and which we can take and be proud when we can turn the tables on the wiping of the floors.
Going purely visual would be a huge development effort. I think t's a wasted effort and that a more classical con system doesn't have any overt flaws that make it worth changing.
Walking into a fight and having to flip a coin to decide its difficulty seems silly to me. Adding RNG into numerous game systems doesn't make things challenging or interesting.
I'm tired of games where you can snooze through areas and collect exp in order to move to the nex level hub too
Where mobs will never wipe the floor with you because you are in the 'right level range' to beat them.
Lets get rid of that handholding that comes with level range
And as I've probably said countless times over several topics, embrace the uncertain nature of adventures.So yes,lets learn the hard way and sometimes mobs will wipe the floor with your character.
Going purely visual is a huge development effort ,it is not feasible.So we need certain things like HP and Mana/stamina.Because it is feasible.
Stances and postures like a defensive,aggressive berserker stance of the mob when hp is low might be feasible I think.
Perhaps one day we will run in a virtual world with our oculus rift glasses on where it is all in the visual cues and no longer about the hpbars and all that,so we can fully immerse ourselves.Something we can only dream of for now unfortunately.
Some other things used in old games were music <3333 Tough combat themes ,normal combat themes and easy combat theme
Also voice acting was used as cue
Characters that successfully identified a powerful monster vs a successful identify of weak mob
Sometimes a weak mob could summon strong allies,so an easy identify didn't always mean easy fight.The character's evaluation of the situation wasn't always right :D
Characters would say something when they started to get wounded
They would say something when they were about to die, low on health
https://youtu.be/lY-ThDvzeig?t=61">The insanes were fun too <33
You can check them all out.An overuse might get annoying.But I think a sweet spot for voice cues could be found
If it was up to me, I'd say that con should be part of perception, with bonus's for mob types based upon your homeland. So using EQ as an example, if you were from Kelethin you'd get more info about Orcs, fairies, wolves, etc, while dwarves from Butcherblock would get more info about goblins, bandits, and undead. This would add another level of complexity that could be really well done.
Sarim said:I'd be happy with a con system similar to EQ, but as I commented in the poll already, the system must not lie to the player. That is, a blue con mob should not behave like a yellow/red con mob...no undercons please.
All other information about the mob, like is it especially resistant, what abilities does it have, is it linked to other mobs, should be something for the player to observe and learn :)
I'd have to respectfully disagree with this as well.
One of the things that made EQ such a unique game was that it required you to reach out to the community. EVEN if that community was nothing more than reading someone's player guide - it still required you to do some research.
I love the idea of having to learn either through trial or error, or by asking friends and strangers, which blue conned mob I could handle and which one would wipe the effin' floor with me.
Anything that forces us to engage with the community, no matter how miniscule, has the possibility of creating experiences we otherwise wouldn't have if everything was spread evenly across the board and easily accessible. I like that. Make it a pain in the ass.
I don't remember the easy games. I do remember when things were a pain in the ass. I want to remember Pantheon.
Personally, I like the EQ Con system, all you got was the monsters level in relation to you. and The monsters feelings for you. Even the level con didn't mean anything at high levels. Blue mobs could wreck you.
I Loved that in order to learn a monsters strength/abilities/resists and so on you had to fight it. The only thing a con really told you was if it could see you while your invis, and if it wanted to kill you or not. And I love that. Sounds like a lot of other people do as well.
Maybe if you're going to have lvl based spells for the target. If the mob is an even con or under, show its lvl, if it's higher, don't give its lvl. Or maybe display the level information after you have killed one, or maybe a few?