Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

development time / goal - level 20 instead of 50 ?

    • 51 posts
    November 24, 2023 1:56 PM PST
    I have a suggestion:

    Put out a Poll: ask if the players think the game could / should be released with content only to level 20.. ? or wait until . i dunno i expect level 50 ?

    would the game feel truly unfinished if there was only 20 levels of content ? Would the player base feel as shafted as the 24/7 extraction mode ?

    To get money flowing in faster, and a game actually released, with only 20 levels or so in mind, less content would have to be created and polished, both in terms of worlds, dungeons, and enemies and loot, spells, etc.

    the "epic" higher stuff can be released a year from now or later,

    most MMO players enjoy playing 2-3 classes at least, why not let people spend 6-12 months maxing out those classes, get a deep understanding of the game,

    then release an expansion to raise the level cap another 10-20 levels.

    The game can be released much faster and i would say better quality and less diluted resources, make the first 20 levels really fun, make deeper pockets in the same dungeon (hello EQ Sebelis / Crushbone / Karnors castle / Guk - all in the first 2 expansions of the game)



    People are so desperate for an MMO with 6 members in a party with some challenge, they are paying to have fun in EQ project 99 from 25 years ago with VERY OLD graphics barely better than squares and cubes, or WoW classic from 20 years ago and those are only 5 player groups.



    There will be some people max out level and stop playing,and likely only until level cap increase / new content.

    and I won't be a majority, especially if you can have level sync working where someone level 20 can level sync themselves down (and not OP) to group with a new work mate / friend / neighbor at level 2 and actually play the game WITH them.
    • 810 posts
    November 24, 2023 3:29 PM PST
    I don't care about the level cap, only the world when it comes to game play loops. Originally the VR alpha was going to be lvl 30 I think. They could honestly stop all leveling at any point if they had a world built out sufficiently for fun game play loops. That said if there is only 1-2 places to go for lvl 30 you are going to run out of stuff to do. MMOs need variety. Enemies will also feel more boring since player abilities are often monster abilities for weapons, armor, and abilities. I am happy to submit a bug report / feed back every week effectively working for free towards an idea I hope continues, but I wouldn't do long term subscription if the game couldn't keep me engaged.



    IMO level syncing is the wrong answer, but one we will likely see again and again:

    In my eyes levels ruin the MMO experience by invalidating content as well as number go up gear scores. Given 100 million to burn on my own MMO idea, I would stop leveling at lvl 10 saying level 10s are veteran adventurers. The world would be built around this idea. No longer would you go from a deity figure to a peon because you stepped into a different zone or joined a low level friend. NPCs of the world the kings, the heroes, the captains of the guard would be threats and never turn into jokes the writers ignore. Players would continue to gain and master skills for their class through adventuring as well as environmentally necessary gear but the relative power level would be for 10.

    I would rather be able to explore a group focused world that gives everyone reasons to spend time in every single zone. IE a poison zone would have drops to surviving stronger and stronger poison miasma areas and give classes poison related skills through various class quests.
    This post was edited by Jobeson at November 24, 2023 3:31 PM PST
    • 3852 posts
    November 25, 2023 7:06 AM PST
    My suggestion earlier was to sell subscriptions to an alpha-level version of Terminus. By definition, this means not all races, not all classes, limited content, more bugs, and the like. My argument was that this would be a lot better than to sell access to an extraction game with only a nominal relationship to the Pantheon we are hoping for. At least in terms of how it would sell to core supporters.

    In substance perhaps not a lot different than what the OP posits here. But limiting the harm of people reacting very negatively to how limited "Pantheon" is and how many problems it has since the billing would be "pay to play alpha 24/7" not "pay to play Pantheon as a finished game".
    • 264 posts
    November 25, 2023 8:54 AM PST

     This is good thinking. I agree with severely limiting the scope of the project and releasing something bare bones with very limited content. Just do what everybody else on Steam does and call it "Early Access" so you can get money rolling in to try and finish the game. But they are going to need at least something to show...not just Thronefast. At least 4-5 dungeons..and you need to figure out which classes you are cutting from the game, maybe they can be added later if things go well. Jobeson mentioned if he had $100 million, remember this project has less than $10 million from everything I have read. No, they don't have the resources to reinvent the wheel. I'm sure the idea with project Faerthale was to get some big money coming in but it's important to operate and reality and work with what you've got.

    • 31 posts
    November 25, 2023 12:13 PM PST
    Yeah i wouldn't mind, i would pay a subscription for that.

    - But but the cap need to be at least lvl 30.
    • 146 posts
    November 25, 2023 12:24 PM PST
    I think one piece to keep in mind is that maintaining a live game still takes resources and time. Keeping the game playable for a much larger population means way less resources and time for progressing with the main game to a finished state. This is still a gamble in that if it's not successful enough where VR can hire several more devs, it might actually slow production.

    That's not to say I'm against the idea. I'd love for something like this to happen with Jobeson's caveat in mind. It's just not guaranteed to be a golden bullet.
    • 1921 posts
    November 25, 2023 12:27 PM PST

    IMO:

    It's not a question of can it be done.  It can be.

    It's a question of should it be.  Probably not, and I'll explain why I say that.
    It would be yet another fundamental shift in the entire premise, focus or public design goals for the game.  Which they definitely do NOT need, 9.8 years into development.  If you limit the scope of levels to a subset of the intended maximum, you have to provide all the consumables, gear, skills, abilities, and/or spells within whatever tiers you include.

    In practice this means if your original design was requiring 5 tiers to introduce all of those things, completely, now you have squish that into less tiers OR for the duration of such an implementation, all of those things, including ROLES would be incomplete.
    This would have consequences for content, as well, if it was intended that your flagship features were again, introduced, developed, and capstoned throughout 5 tiers.

    So, again, can be done, probably shouldn't, imo.

    Now, if you're really just dancing around the monetization option of charging a subscription prior to launch+persistence?  That's already on the table, as per the November 17th announcement , which states (in part) " We are considering ... an early access subscription down the road. "

    I have no interest in paying for anything Pantheon related prior to persistence, given how the past 9.8 years have gone with respect to donations given by their shifting target demographic.  But, I guess it's possible a new target demographic will pay for an early access subscription, given other games have done this successfully.
    On the other hand, I have no confidence in VRs ability to guarantee persistence prior to launch, because they haven't demonstrated the ability to do that, yet.

    • 264 posts
    November 25, 2023 12:46 PM PST

     Well vjek I suppose the issue of squishing things into less tiers could be relevant if they actually have any of that mapped out and completed. I don't have pre alpha access to this game so I have no idea what the actual state of things truly is. All I know is they are telling us they don't have all the classes complete yet, and showed us very little in terms of completed zones and dungeons thus far. If there is content actually complete at level 30+ and various classes skills/spells have been mapped out I'd say you have a good point. But if none of this is actually developed? May as well reduce the scope of the game so you can get something out there before running out of money.

    • 1921 posts
    November 25, 2023 1:18 PM PST
    IMO:



    That's true, lots of if's in there, but you would hope after so many years, the plan at least would be complete.
    A starting point for that conversation would be: At what level are all of the tools for each role provided to each class?
    In other words, if that's by level 10? As in: Does a Paladin have everything they need to be a Paladin, uniquely, at level 10? Then maybe you could consider such a plan.



    And similarly, for all other classes, including all first ranks of all spells for all casters? Everything that makes a given race & class combination unique or at least dinstict, provided by whatever level you want to pick? It's.. problematic, in my experience. Typically more levels are required, unless you provide a tremendous number of features per level in the first 10, all while leveling quite quickly. It also removes or reduces any semblence of Archetypes from role definition.
    This post was edited by vjek at November 25, 2023 1:18 PM PST
    • 902 posts
    November 26, 2023 2:07 AM PST
    I am not sure releasing with less than half the levels planned is wise. I am not sure why there is such a concern about getting revenue flowing? VR have stated many times that they have the money to get Pantheon released. I think it would also be detrimental to the game if after a few months, there was nothing left to do but wait for the level expansion to land.

    I do think it would feel very unfinished. At 20 you would just be getting into the intricacies of the class role, then, doh, nothing.

    If it was a serious consideration to release a product that was not complete, then I would prefer it to be continent based. Get all races/classes complete for one continent and all planned dungeons, raids, world bosses, etc., and release that. Then concentrate on getting the second continent finished, etc. This way players would have a complete experience without impacting too harshly. If the experience is good, players would be chomping on the bit for a new continent.

    I believe that epic "stuff" should be part of the game experience from very early on. Hints, legends being introduced, classes getting involved with some of the major characters involved from the start. I don't think this content should be an add on. It should be interwoven early doors.

    Also, as Feastycentral points out, once you release a game, your team has to be split between game and player maintenance and producing new content. It is easier to get things done if you have the luxury of concentrating on one thing at a time.

    I am in the release the full game camp. If this cannot be done, then by continent. Level range releases just doesn't sit well with me.
    This post was edited by chenzeme at November 26, 2023 2:08 AM PST
    • 194 posts
    November 26, 2023 5:10 AM PST
    VR has stated that more money would speed up development, that's why there's a focus on it.
    • 86 posts
    November 26, 2023 6:08 AM PST
    What makes this game appealing to me is the vast amount of content, the open world and the chance to get lost in it. Releasing a fraction of a game would result in the complete opposite of what draws me to this game, and I'd assume many others.
    • 902 posts
    November 26, 2023 7:51 AM PST
    justdrop said:
    VR has stated that more money would speed up development, that's why there's a focus on it.

    Yeah, but releasing a half finished levelling system in the hope that it would bring in more money so it can be finished quicker doesn't resonate with me at all.
    The likely outcome is that some will jump in and then complain very loudly when the content is exhausted. This would turn people away, not encourage them in.
    I tend to agree with Gaku.

    This post was edited by chenzeme at November 26, 2023 7:54 AM PST
    • 194 posts
    November 26, 2023 7:58 AM PST
    I'm not arguing, just stating what they've said.
    • 3852 posts
    November 26, 2023 8:49 AM PST
    I don't think vjek is wrong but my perspective is a bit different.

    VR wanted to "monetize" 247. Why? Probably because money was running out and they were desperate. Money is probably still running out and they are probably still desperate. 247 proved not to be a golden bullet - they determined that it would not generate enough interest to make enough money for them. But they still need a golden bullet.

    I can only see two approaches now - which is far from saying there only are two approaches.

    1. Monetize a version of the real MMO not a half-arsed extraction game.

    2. Set a goal for release of Pantheon. Lock it in internally as something that *must* be met regardless of costs and compromises or the project dies. So, e.g. the team is told they have two choices. VR gets dissolved in 12 months or whatever can hit the street in 12 months is released for sale as Pantheon or early access Pantheon or beta Pantheon or .....
    • 51 posts
    November 26, 2023 9:01 AM PST
    A game half done not earning income, is a far worse position than having all classes and basic abilities and grouping working at lower levels with fewer zones with some basic gear and enemies started.

    if you can't make each class be very unique by level 10, the entire game design is broken.

    EQ had very unique abilities per class by level 10 , and for sure level 20 easily (save the sad Ranger Bow DPS)

    a lot of people have given up due to time development and very little to show for it since 2018 videos.

    Reducing the scope of all the art needed for enemies, weapons, armor, quests, rewards and abilities at this point from level (50?) to about half that can still yield a very fun engaging experience, and possibly draw in more money faster to get more resources for the aforementioned.

    IMO, the game doesn't need the full meal deal experience all levels (50+?) and zones. it needs the full meal deal experience of starting unique abilities for the classes and group co-player experience, (in game voice chat in groups?) which after 10 years still isn't done but VR paying money for resources for zones equipment and art for something that could take players months or a year to get to isn't the best use of time or money.
    This post was edited by Euther at November 26, 2023 9:13 AM PST
    • 2052 posts
    November 26, 2023 12:10 PM PST

    Euther said:

    Reducing the scope of all the art needed for enemies, weapons, armor, quests, rewards and abilities at this point from level (50?) to about half that can still yield a very fun engaging experience...

    IMO, the game doesn't need the full meal deal experience all levels (50+?) and zones. it needs the full meal deal experience of starting unique abilities for the classes and group co-player experience...

    but VR paying money for resources for zones equipment and art for something that could take players months or a year to get to isn't the best use of time or money.

    IMO this is the best suggestion so far and the most sensible approach for VR to take right now. Reading between the lines of what they have said in the past about Pantheon's goals, and what little they are saying publicly today, I think they agree with this also.

    Of course, like so many things, success or failure will depend on the countless details of HOW they implement this concept.

    • 1921 posts
    November 26, 2023 4:29 PM PST

    Euther said: if you can't make each class be very unique by level 10, the entire game design is broken.

    IMO:

    I agree, but we don't yet know if this is a public design goal for this game.

    • 947 posts
    November 26, 2023 5:18 PM PST
    I strongly believe that testers don't need to be going above level 20 (or whatever level the class gets all of their core skills). Generating level appropriate content is just a matter of scaling numbers with the exception of "meaningful" quests.



    And to be brutally honest, no players should be testing at all until all of the intended classes (game mechanics) are included. The Pre-Alpha "players" are not "testers", they paid to access an unfinished game. They aren't actually doing game testing as much as they're providing very valuable feedback.



    Trying to test something's mechanics, when all of the mechanics aren't even included is a poor choice IMO. The Bard and Necro will both change mechanics quite dramatically. With that said, basic (non-boss) NPC "mechanics" post lvl 20 shouldn't be different at all, only their difficulty and appearance/names should change, and that is trivial once a baseline is established. (A level 5 rogue NPC with a pyrophobia disposition should 'act' the same as a lvl 50 rogue NPC with the same disposition, just hit harder and stealth better with more defenses/HP). I think its more important to get all of the classes in before going forward... at all. This should've been done years ago... back before Project Faerthale honestly. Not knowing how the players are intended to interact with the game world being created before creating the world boggles the mind. I get the reluctance of the Bard, having so many design options... but the Necro should be a pretty straight forward mana using caster. That should be a slam-dunk class to conceptually create in a couple of weeks between 2 people. Maybe for difference in CC class flavor, have the ENC in cloth, Necro in Leather and Bard in Heavy Chain with range and ease of ability use taking class 'squishiness' into account. Allow Necro to restore resources and paralyze with fear (stun-lock) with cooldowns similar to WoW rogue, requiring timing and skill to permanently keep a single target stunned, or multiple targets temporarily. OR, they can use those fear cooldowns to instead control a recently killed NPC... maybe once the skills are evolved, allow for use of pet as well as CC. I can go on and on with ideas, but that's what someone in VR should be doing! >:(



    There should be 0 player testing without knowing what you are actually testing for :(

    Add: I greatly appreciate VR's transparency, but I can't help but wonder where we would be if there were a stringent scope of work for this project instead of jumping around from objective to objective and then back to the other objective, only to reverse ideas and scrap an entire game engine without ever finishing the first objective :/
    This post was edited by Darch at November 26, 2023 5:32 PM PST
    • 902 posts
    November 27, 2023 3:23 AM PST
    Darch: I strongly believe that testers don't need to be going above level 20 (or whatever level the class gets all of their core skills).

    Don't forget spells tend to be different the higher the player level is, sometimes splitting into differing versions of one spell. Each version needs to be tested. But I do take your overall point that testing doesn't need to have everything in place when in the early testing phase. It does later on.

    Darch: Generating level appropriate content is just a matter of scaling numbers with the exception of "meaningful" quests.

    I don't agree that it is a simple case to generate higher level content just by scaling. If that was the case, then there would be algorithms that did this automatically. My previous point regarding horizontal progression make this almost impossible to do. Pantheon has commented on horizontal progression in the past as well as vertical progression. So depending on whether VR actually does this will affect whether scaling could be achieved or not. As with everything to do with Pantheon, it is not a straight forward or trivial undertaking.


    Darch: Trying to test something's mechanics, when all of the mechanics aren't even included is a poor choice IMO. The Bard and Necro will both change mechanics quite dramatically.

    True to an extent. You can still test systems for operational accuracy and consistency. There are aspects that can (and should) be tested with any incomplete system. Developers test specific code to see it is behaving correctly as they write it, they dont wait until everything is in place. Similarly, user testing can and should test aspects of a complex system before it is complete. Separate parts of a system certainly can be tested. What cannot be tested is the interoperability between released and non released portions.

    In the case of VR, you can test group play in the game and how those available classes interplay. What you cannot deduce or test is how Bards or Necros will affect group play until they are available. This does not mean non-bard and/or non-necro group testing is meaningless. Meaningful tests can be made, just not complete tests. Not every group will always have a bard and/or necro, so testing without those classes is very relevant.

    Darch: There should be 0 player testing without knowing what you are actually testing for :(

    I agree. I also believe VR have said that they will be issuing guidance as to what they want tested and will ask players to redirect their play if they need to.

    Darch: I greatly appreciate VR's transparency, but I can't help but wonder where we would be if there were a stringent scope of work...

    This, of course, is assuming there is no stringent scope; we just don't know. Having said that, I agree that it seems that VR have changed direction a bit too much and a bit too quickly from time to time to time. However, I have to point out that with a complex system, it is not always possible to anticipate every obstacle before it occurs, even with a very complete and robust "scope of work" in place. When problems happen (and they will), it is necessary to change direction for a time to put in place something that will help with the particular obstacle. Then move back to where you were. This is common.

    I do agree that there does appear to be a lot of wasted effort here and there. But we really don't know how much is still in use or not. And VR wont say.
    This post was edited by chenzeme at November 27, 2023 3:49 AM PST
    • 947 posts
    November 27, 2023 10:17 AM PST
    Darch: I strongly believe that testers don't need to be going above level 20 (or whatever level the class gets all of their core skills).
    chenzeme: Don't forget spells tend to be different the higher the player level is, sometimes splitting into differing versions of one spell. Each version needs to be tested. But I do take your overall point that testing doesn't need to have everything in place when in the early testing phase. It does later on.

    --I hear you, that is why I stated "whatever level the class gets their core skills". 1 or 2 late game abilities like like a combat resurrection or evacuation type of spell shouldn't need to be "player-tested" for anything other than functionality by a dev really.

    Darch: Generating level appropriate content is just a matter of scaling numbers with the exception of "meaningful" quests.
    chenzeme: I don't agree that it is a simple case to generate higher level content just by scaling. If that was the case, then there would be algorithms that did this automatically. My previous point regarding horizontal progression make this almost impossible to do. Pantheon has commented on horizontal progression in the past as well as vertical progression. So depending on whether VR actually does this will affect whether scaling could be achieved or not. As with everything to do with Pantheon, it is not a straight forward or trivial undertaking.

    --There have been dynamic game balance algorithms out since the 80s but they became really popular about 20yrs ago; and modern algorithms are basically on par with AI now.

    Darch: Trying to test something's mechanics, when all of the mechanics aren't even included is a poor choice IMO. The Bard and Necro will both change mechanics quite dramatically.
    chenzeme: True to an extent. You can still test systems for operational accuracy and consistency. There are aspects that can (and should) be tested with any incomplete system. Developers test specific code to see it is behaving correctly as they write it, they dont wait until everything is in place. Similarly, user testing can and should test aspects of a complex system before it is complete. Separate parts of a system certainly can be tested. What cannot be tested is the interoperability between released and non released portions.
    chenzeme: In the case of VR, you can test group play in the game and how those available classes interplay. What you cannot deduce or test is how Bards or Necros will affect group play until they are available. This does not mean non-bard and/or non-necro group testing is meaningless. Meaningful tests can be made, just not complete tests. Not every group will always have a bard and/or necro, so testing without those classes is very relevant.

    --My statement was inaccurate and I agree with your statement almost entirely. The part I disagree with is that Bard or Necro (especially Bard) won't affect testing... adding the Bard later will absolutely require re-testing if the Bard is going to be AoE based. Especially if they (and they will) use balancing algorithms. The entire game mechanics will adjust for everyone having +haste or +regeneration or all enemies slowed or silenced or w/e. The algorithm won't reduce difficulty just because the Bard dies or someone doesn't bring a Bard in their group because it needs to remain difficult for the groups that do have Bards... and that goes for any game-changing mechanic they add like C-heals for example. Add: (C-heal rotation mechanic broke EQ balancing to the point where non-warrior raid tanks were irrelevant and non-cleric healers were basically there to backup heal until they re-worked a ton of mechanics several years/expansions later).

    Darch: I greatly appreciate VR's transparency, but I can't help but wonder where we would be if there were a stringent scope of work...
    chenzeme: This, of course, is assuming there is no stringent scope; we just don't know. Having said that, I agree that it seems that VR have changed direction a bit too much and a bit too quickly from time to time to time. However, I have to point out that with a complex system, it is not always possible to anticipate every obstacle before it occurs, even with a very complete and robust "scope of work" in place. When problems happen (and they will), it is necessary to change direction for a time to put in place something that will help with the particular obstacle. Then move back to where you were. This is common.
    I do agree that there does appear to be a lot of wasted effort here and there. But we really don't know how much is still in use or not. And VR wont say.

    --Absolutely. Like I said, I'm grateful for the communication from VR but it doesn't seem that there is a stringent scope when they switch projects without finishing one. Character concept creation should've been done years ago (I'm not even saying the mechanics - just the concept). This should've been done back with the original race/class matrix decision back in like 2017, back when they first created the race/class section on this website and defined "roles". Why jump through such big hoops to have the DL be such a unique class, and then put most of the other classes on the backburner (for years) if not for an undefined scope of work? Get concept and basic mechanics down, move onto next class until all classes are implemented, THEN work on adjusting/balancing their abilities.
    This post was edited by Darch at November 27, 2023 11:06 AM PST
    • 86 posts
    November 27, 2023 3:27 PM PST
    Darch said:
    I strongly believe that testers don't need to be going above level 20 (or whatever level the class gets all of their core skills). Generating level appropriate content is just a matter of scaling numbers with the exception of "meaningful" quests.



    And to be brutally honest, no players should be testing at all until all of the intended classes (game mechanics) are included. The Pre-Alpha "players" are not "testers", they paid to access an unfinished game. They aren't actually doing game testing as much as they're providing very valuable feedback.



    Trying to test something's mechanics, when all of the mechanics aren't even included is a poor choice IMO. The Bard and Necro will both change mechanics quite dramatically. With that said, basic (non-boss) NPC "mechanics" post lvl 20 shouldn't be different at all, only their difficulty and appearance/names should change, and that is trivial once a baseline is established. (A level 5 rogue NPC with a pyrophobia disposition should 'act' the same as a lvl 50 rogue NPC with the same disposition, just hit harder and stealth better with more defenses/HP). I think its more important to get all of the classes in before going forward... at all. This should've been done years ago... back before Project Faerthale honestly. Not knowing how the players are intended to interact with the game world being created before creating the world boggles the mind. I get the reluctance of the Bard, having so many design options... but the Necro should be a pretty straight forward mana using caster. That should be a slam-dunk class to conceptually create in a couple of weeks between 2 people. Maybe for difference in CC class flavor, have the ENC in cloth, Necro in Leather and Bard in Heavy Chain with range and ease of ability use taking class 'squishiness' into account. Allow Necro to restore resources and paralyze with fear (stun-lock) with cooldowns similar to WoW rogue, requiring timing and skill to permanently keep a single target stunned, or multiple targets temporarily. OR, they can use those fear cooldowns to instead control a recently killed NPC... maybe once the skills are evolved, allow for use of pet as well as CC. I can go on and on with ideas, but that's what someone in VR should be doing! >:(



    There should be 0 player testing without knowing what you are actually testing for :(

    Add: I greatly appreciate VR's transparency, but I can't help but wonder where we would be if there were a stringent scope of work for this project instead of jumping around from objective to objective and then back to the other objective, only to reverse ideas and scrap an entire game engine without ever finishing the first objective :/




    This post.