As an alternative to increasing subscription fees, or adding a cosmetics cash shop, what about taking some inspiration from Patreon?
Some players may be willing to pay to support the development of new content similar to how Patreons drive content on YouTube and elsewhere.
This could maintain more content developers on staff post Launch, as well as engage players in that development.
I have long said discord is the one to emulate. I know it is silly and simple, but giving people forum flair for cash does not change the game in any way. I have never paid for this stuff, but half of my friends do, I don't get the appeal, but of my table top gaming nearly a third of them pay discord for the extra emotes and the like.
I don't like the idea of the crowd driving content. If I am paying $20 a month I would hope they don't grin and say for $5 more a month I could vote on the future of the game.
I am a sucker for side projects like books in the setting. A proper writer telling a story that expands the lore of the world is my type of purchase. Such as how the Mass Effect books are not best sellers but clearly not horrible writing either.
Balanz said:As an alternative to increasing subscription fees, or adding a cosmetics cash shop, what about taking some inspiration from Patreon?
Some players may be willing to pay to support the development of new content similar to how Patreons drive content on YouTube and elsewhere.
This could maintain more content developers on staff post Launch, as well as engage players in that development.
Those people who coughed up $1k to be VIPs don't, to the best of my knowledge, have any real say in the actual direction of the game so why should someone who decides to pay a small increase in monthly subscription? What would you do when all those people clamor for their idea to be implemented but isn't? Or when all those ideas conflict? Or are just terrible? I just dont think it would work.
I have no idea if it would work or not but if designed in the right way I would for sure donate with no strings attached more then a monthly sub. As I write this, I think I have even posted a response like this before on these forums. My one and only goal would be to help keep a game I love continue to grow and prosper. Seeing others do the same and having the game benefit from our donations would be all the reward I would need.
I would hope if this was implemented it would be thought out way more then I am about too. Below are some starting points that I would consider. Again, rough ideas far from finished thoughts.
The idea is wild and daring. But if it was done right, it could be a game changer for games like Pantheon that are something we all want to be part of our lives for many many years to come.
A lot of these ideas just sound like subscription fees with extra steps.
I think one thing that needs to be made clear is MMOs did not move away from subscription fees because they don't work, they moved away from them because microtransactions are more profitable. The two most popular MMOs right now, World of Warcraft and Final Fintasy XIV, have subscription fees. Elder Scrolls Online has an optional subscription fee; paying it gives you access to the entire store, rather than purchasing thing piecemeal.
One thing we can be certain of is that Pantheon will have a subscription fee. One thing we can be reasonably certain of is that it will have an additional cash shop. One thing we don't, and can't know for the time being is what the nature of the shop will be. I hope that it will not be intrusive nor predatory on the game and players, and I trust VR understands the community doesn't want that either, but we won't know until we get closer to an announcement and they make a decision one way or the other.
eunichron said:One thing we can be certain of is that Pantheon will have a subscription fee. One thing we can be reasonably certain of is that it will have an additional cash shop.
Most discussions on the forums define 'cash shop' to be something accessed from inside that game, and more importantly that also sells items that are used inside the game. If that is what you are reasonably certain of, than I'd request you tell me where they have given any indication that they are likely to do that.
What I am quite certain of is that VR has told us more than once that they don't want to have a cash shop as defined above. Other than that, they have - to my knowledge - once said that 'if it is the only way to avoid shutting down the game' they would consider it.
Barring statements by VR that I am unaware of, I'd say that "we have a reasonably good chance of NO cash shop in Pantheon".
But then I see optimism as being not only more beneficial to me personally, but actually being beneficial to the odds of Pantheon being a success. I do realize some on the forums don't agree, though I've never heard a compelling argument against it.
To clarify my post. I expect there will be a monthly subscription and the extra donation is an optional addition that could even be on a completly different part of the website. There would be many people that would never donate money and that would be just fine. They could just pay the monthly fee and hopfuly benifit from others donations.
Jothany said:Most discussions on the forums define 'cash shop' to be something accessed from inside that game, and more importantly that also sells items that are used inside the game.
I don't care how the rest of the forum users define "cash shop." I only care how VR defines "cash shop."
If you would read the rest of my paragraph that you cut out of your quote, it already addresses everything in the rest of your post.
eunichron said: I don't care how the rest of the forum users define "cash shop." I only care how VR defines "cash shop."
VR has not said a single thing about "cash shops" on this thread. You have. So I was asking for your definition of the kind of cash shop that you are 'reasonably certain' Pantheon will have. Because if you call the Redbubble store where one can buy Pantheon coffee mugs and T-shirts a "cash shop", then there would be no need for me to continue this discussion.
If you would read the rest of my paragraph that you cut out of your quote, it already addresses everything in the rest of your post.
Perhaps you read one line of a comment and then post a reply without reading the whole comment, I do not.
Nothing in your comment addressed my implied question of whether VR has said something to make you 'reasonably certain' about cash shops in Pantheon. Apparently not, so I conclude that "One thing we can be reasonably certain of" is just your way to make your speculation sound more factual and less personal opinion-ey. That's fine, we're all entitled to opinions.
I'd prefer that there just be a subscription. Everyone pays the same, everyone has access to the same content, and every individual has the same influence over development. There are already going to be certain subsets of the user base that can bring more pressure to bare (streamers, uberguilds, etc.). Why complicate it more?
Every month each subscriber gets a vote. If you don't use it you loose it.
There are a number of items to vote for , each with a threashold proportionate to the effort for the dev team to build them(e.e. 100,000 votes for a new mini dungeon themed on goblins)
The votes against each item acrue until the threashold is reached, at which point the item is added to thet development team backlog.
Once released, whatever was voted for would be availible to all , not just those that voted for it (e.g.a New mini dungeon or quest line etc.)
This drives community participation, and also opens up the door for the generous to buy a VIP or Moby Dick subscription for which the main bonus is +1 or + 5 increased votes every month.
In short, it is a way to moneterise without cash shops.
Do you really think having players being able to vote with cash on the direction of the game would be a good idea? The reason I am excited about Pantheon has nothing to do with players input but the devs decision making. Players are not always right and some times I do not even think what I want is what I really want.
Just let me donate extra cash each month. The new content will be reward enough.
Just a bit of clarification.
I am concerned that after Launch, an appropriate subscription fee may not generate enough revenue to support an ongoing development staff sufficient to develop high quality new content in a reasonable time.
Increasing the subscription fee means fewer subscribers, and may reduce revenue.
Reducing the subscription fee might increase the subscriber base, but will increase maintanance costs, and may reduce net revenue.
Where to get additional revenue?
Box fees are a barrier to entry, and if expansions are optional, it may increase the cost of maintaining in effect two experiences.
A cash shop, even if just cosmetics, or small quality of life upgrades, would be negatively received, and might lose more subscription fees than were gained in shop sales.
So what about permanent player funded development by those who chose to support it?
Based on their understanding of their customer base, Visionary Realms would propose an expansion and enumerate its features, and raise money primarily through Pledges to support that development.
Visionary Realms might even propose smaller mini-expansions with focused content, and raise funding individually for those.
For example, a PvP rule set.
I apologize for my poor choice of words. I did not mean that people should vote. I meant that they listen to us generally, propose specific content, and raise funding for that content.
I was looking for a way for whales to whale after Launch without a cash shop.
Balanz said:Just a bit of clarification.
I am concerned that after Launch, an appropriate subscription fee may not generate enough revenue to support an ongoing development staff sufficient to develop high quality new content in a reasonable time.
Increasing the subscription fee means fewer subscribers, and may reduce revenue.
Reducing the subscription fee might increase the subscriber base, but will increase maintanance costs, and may reduce net revenue.
Where to get additional revenue?
Box fees are a barrier to entry, and if expansions are optional, it may increase the cost of maintaining in effect two experiences.
A cash shop, even if just cosmetics, or small quality of life upgrades, would be negatively received, and might lose more subscription fees than were gained in shop sales.
So what about permanent player funded development by those who chose to support it?
Based on their understanding of their customer base, Visionary Realms would propose an expansion and enumerate its features, and raise money primarily through Pledges to support that development.
Visionary Realms might even propose smaller mini-expansions with focused content, and raise funding individually for those.
For example, a PvP rule set.
I apologize for my poor choice of words. I did not mean that people should vote. I meant that they listen to us generally, propose specific content, and raise funding for that content.
I was looking for a way for whales to whale after Launch without a cash shop.
I understood your post. Some of these folks are making up their own narrative of what you wrote. It is a completely optional way of income for VR that will, hopefully, severly minimize or eliminate the need for a cash shop. Your suggestions and the reopening of the store will help to make this a reality. I know ther are plenty of folks ready to spend additional funds on physical merchandise from the Pantheon store. I put up some suggestions before in the post about subscription models that could accomplish similar goals. I would be willing to pay $29.95 a month on a subscription for some additional perks. There could even be in game perks like addtional customizations to the UI. Please note that I'm hoping the UI will be customizable from the start. But, allowing the premium accounts to have custom colors or icons on their UI(which gives absolutley NO advantage and the only person that sees your UI is you, so it won't affect others and others won't see them cause UIs are ONLY seen by the individual playing that account) Lots of little things like that can be done to incentivize those who want to contribute more than the average person and to allow VR to have a very competitive monthly subscription.
I think the monthly sub should be $19.95, but having it $14.95 and having a premuim account for $29.95 would be a good thing for VR and those in the community that still wants to support the game after launch to ensure it stays true to the tenets and what we expect as a community.
They could do as I suggested or as you did...or a combination of several suggestions. Whatever it takes to not have a cash shop(other than for physical items) or to further future proof it from microtransactions.
I don't think some folks are being reasonable in thinking we can just have a subscription or the game can attract a lot of players with a high subscription alone. I also don't want an in game cash shop with cosmetics. Everything we see in the game should be obtainable in game. Patreons can be an addtional form of revenue.
In my excitement and hurry, I did poorly word my proposal, comparing it to Patreon, where you can often vote for content. While Patreon was indeed the inspiration for my idea, but on reflection, it would closer to permanent development with Pledges, something like what we have now.
Isn't this all based on the assumption that a subscription fee won't be enough? What if it IS enough? I'm not sure why it wouldn't be enough, there are games that have been going on for many years that use a sub fee only and it works fine for many of them (the good games haha).
I tend to believe VR can thrive on subscription fees.