I think Pantheon needs to put a fairly large emphasis on roaming mobs in all areas around the world, who have large wandering paths so they often surprise when they turn up. For me probably the more exciting locations / moments in the past has been when there are roamers around wandering into the fight at the worst possible moment (as it always happens to happen at the worst moment!). This puts everyone up to some degree of high alert and certainly adds a large additional danger to would be solo'ers. It also fits in with the feel of a world being alive and not static and of course plays heavily into the importance of players recruiting CC and also non CC players keeping their own bars with some sort of CC / save the day abilities for a dire situation. And i certainly hope my pantheon journey is riddled with dire situations!
Have roamers added the spice of life to your mmo adventures? Or do you see them as an annoyance?
An absolute must! Most of my MMO experience is from vanilla WoW but I remember those Westfall dust devils to this day! Brings a bit more added danger, how close dare you go to that much higher level roaming mob to kill the other mobs you need for your quest.
Or if you are grouping in enclosed caves/dungeons and there is those wondering patrols which can upset the odds at any moment.
Another reason I like this idea is because certain mobs will be sought after (Ghoul Messenger *before* people learned his path. Or the Brownies in LFay, etc.) and this will make the journey much more exciting. Especially if VR can find a way to have them roam in ways that players can't memorize and publish their spawn point and path.
I really believe that the true evolution of the MMO is getting away from the permanently static NPC, the one that stands there day after day never moving from their spot. All NPCs should have a life, some movement that give the game a bit more realism. And yes, this means that merchants should be closing down at night so if you want to buy stuff at night, go find the black market or back-alley shops. Cities should be filled with citizens going about their daily activities, guards doing patrols, etc.
For any NPC group that has even the most basic of societal structure and lives in an area with buildings, etc, should also be filled with movement. NPCs moving around should be the default and the more static but not permanently static should be rare. Yes, a guard set to guard a specific location? Sure, but even then he should be replaced every so often and a guard patrol should be passing by routinely.
Animals, especially, should be roaming far and wide because that's what animals do. They look for food and have to go miles to get it. Make animal NPCs reflect that.
Yup, there are only a few examples of what should be static in my opinion.
Things like an animals domain or den. They might be roaming for half the time and in their den half the time (or whatever ratio makes sense for that being).
A group of bandits that has "made camp" at a specific location and now live there for X hours or days.
Animals that do not roam, like spiders.
That old man that just sits on his front porch all day.
Etc.
NPCs need, need, need to roam. It's far more realistic for guards, merchants, citizens, animals, etc to move around. I think there should be a evening shift at the armory merchant. Nights that shop should be closed. Open at 6am, closed at midnight. Guard spots need three/four shifts, if possible. They should be "programmed" to have a real life. Names, jobs, homes, etc. I'd love to see Rogues be able to steal from guards homes. Dispositions is an excellent start. Excellent. I sure look forward to wandering orcs making life hard.
Questaar said:NPCs need, need, need to roam. It's far more realistic for guards, merchants, citizens, animals, etc to move around. I think there should be a evening shift at the armory merchant. Nights that shop should be closed. Open at 6am, closed at midnight. Guard spots need three/four shifts, if possible. They should be "programmed" to have a real life. Names, jobs, homes, etc. I'd love to see Rogues be able to steal from guards homes. Dispositions is an excellent start. Excellent. I sure look forward to wandering orcs making life hard.
Agree with this. I think there can be some exceptions, which a poster above mentioned. Stationary Guards at post and Merchants in their shops as examples, however there should be shifts for these NPCs. Its already been stated that there will be a significance to 'nights', as in towns will go to sleep, so shops will close. I think this is great. However we will need to see what they set as the day/night cycle. If they go for a 24hour day cycle then this would negatively impact people who could only play late at night. I am hoping that there will be a 2-3 hour day.
I hope that there are very random spawn points and very large roam/patrol areas for most NPCs.
I am also hoping to see something different when it comes to aggroe range than what other games (that I have played) have had. Having your party throwing spells and doing battle crys to kill 1 mob, while 3 other mobs within sight and 40yds away just stand there and ignore you is silly.
Imagine if they also were able to tie in item drops based on the location the target was when you killed them... or perhaps even depending on what other NPC's were also in the area where they were when engaged. For example:
Let's say you are roaming Black Rose Keep, and you come across a generic Guard on Patrol. If you kill him you have the chance at his Armor and Weapons to drop. But if he has Patrolled into a specific Storage room he likes to stop for a rest, he also has the chance to drop a unique Pipe and some special 'herbs' that he uses when he's in that room. The Pipe could be used in a special quest, and/or the 'herbs' could be added to recipies to add some potency or something. But you only have a chance to get them if you engage (or pull) Guards who have Patrolled into that specific Storage room. Once they leave the room (maybe 30 seconds after) they leave behind the extra Loot.
Or...
Let's imagine that the Guards sometimes pass by each other and stop to throw some dice in a friendly little match. Once they break apart and start moving away, if they are Engaged within the next 30 seconds they have a chance to drop a set of Dice and maybe some extra coin or a gem. The Dice of course being useful in some way. And maybe, if you engage one of the Guards while the other guard is still close enough, you might actually find a very rare set of 'Marked Dice' that lead to a special rare quest. This of course would also work if you pulled both of these Guards together while they were still playing, thus giving groups a higher chance at the Dice if they have the strength to take both guards together such as having a Control class (Enchanter/Bard/Necro) or Multi Tanks.
Or...
Imagine that Guards who are Engaged while an Officer (Lieutenant, Captain, Sergent, etc...) is Roaming nearby (within 200 units) have a chance to drop special items like a 'Grooming Comb' or 'Shoe Polish' or a 'Sharpening Stone' since they want to look in Tip Top shape if the Officer see's them.
The Officer NPC on the other hand, if Engaged while 5 or more Guards are still alive in the area (within 200 units) may also have a chance to drop confiscated contraband type stuff like a special unique Lighter, or Homemade Booze or Uncommon treats like 'Grandma's Cookies'.
This could entice players to keep alive Officers in the area if they are after the special Comb or Shoe polish. Or if they want the unique Lighter they instead make sure not to kill all the Guards before Engaging the officer.
Or...
Let's imagine you are killing animals for their Meat to be used in your Cooking Recipies. If when you kill said animals the game checks the surrounding area to see if there are any 'Rabid' flagged Predator animals (Wolves, Bears, Gators, etc...) in the area. If yes, then you actually have a chance that the meat that drops is 'Infected Meat'. This special infected meat could then be used instead in Alchemical cocktails to add Frenzy type effects, or maybe even special Rogue poisons they can apply to their weapons that when Proc'd cause enemies to be weakend or something.
This would encourage players who are hunting for those Infected meats to avoid killing any 'Rabid' predators in the area. While other players who are instead looking for clean meats to instead hunt down those Rabid predators first before they start slaying the Prey animals in the area.
Just some ideas...
bcd2018 said:I am also hoping to see something different when it comes to aggroe range than what other games (that I have played) have had. Having your party throwing spells and doing battle crys to kill 1 mob, while 3 other mobs within sight and 40yds away just stand there and ignore you is silly.
I agree this is silly, but I'm not sure of a good way to "fix" that problem. One way would be to make the mobs more scarce (far enough apart that they can't hear or see each other), but that seems like it would ruin all sorts of other things.
Ranarius said:bcd2018 said:I am also hoping to see something different when it comes to aggroe range than what other games (that I have played) have had. Having your party throwing spells and doing battle crys to kill 1 mob, while 3 other mobs within sight and 40yds away just stand there and ignore you is silly.
I agree this is silly, but I'm not sure of a good way to "fix" that problem. One way would be to make the mobs more scarce (far enough apart that they can't hear or see each other), but that seems like it would ruin all sorts of other things.
IF the mob is within 50m (Sound agro Range) but not in Sight it might start walking tword the sound of it's screaming comrade, until it got into LOS then attack. Of course values and formulas would all need tuned for the type of MOB and the enviroment (open area vs. Dungons) Doesn't seem like a hard add (if it's not already in)
As for the roaming YES, I'm 100% in favor. I would like to hope for TRUE random roaming, Having been in the EQ2 builder "Landmark" (Done some pathing for mobs) and played enough games to know I have never seen a truly ROAMING Mob, they are always set on a path, and predictable. Although they may have multiple paths they might roam (Quillmane in EQ =4 possable paths) they can all be tracked and we eventually know where they will be. IF VR could come up with an algorithm that would allow a mob to path arround a given perimiter (Zone extents for some) randomly without running into walls and getting stuck that would be very inviting. Basic Pathed "roaming' at the least is a must (if we must settle).
Active Mobs, Yes to the mercant's going home at night and closing shop, More so to the Merchant being active while at the shop. I know, nothing to gain by that besides the world coming to life but hey, I'm a romatic. Yes to the change of the Guard probably 3 times a day, probably rotatin shifts to keep things to a 40 hour work week.... possably random guard changes, ya never know WHAT guard is going to be on duty. and
And while asking too much... a grand Changing of the Guard ceremony in ThrownFest for Launch would be extreamly cool!
Vandraad said:[...]And yes, this means that merchants should be closing down at night so if you want to buy stuff at night, go find the black market or back-alley shops. Cities should be filled with citizens going about their daily activities, guards doing patrols, etc.
[...]
That would be a great way to introduce faction. Like certain classes ( maybe rogues) woud have better faction with black market dealers or fences but everyone else could only go to one at night at first and the exchange would be paltry at best. So you can either manage your inventory and wait for day or deal with having to sell some at the "black market". Alternatively, you can get anything at the black market, but at a price (like concert or sports tickets IRL, lol :)) and decide to walk a tightrope to build faction a bit to get better prices or exposure to more merchants in the black market. More faction, more access, more hard to get items strangely available but at a cost of lowering regular town faction- including bank access and innate guard protection access. The only consession I can see is that black market faction is global. if upped in one place, its automatically upped in all places. You may be KOS in that races city but you can still trade in the black market in that city but they also may gouge you a bit. Like the goblin bankers at the bottom of runnyeye.
I definitely think that Pantheon needs to have roamers for various reasons. The game really needs to facilitate player alertness to sell the fact that the world is dangerous and should be feared. Roaming mobs help with this aspect and keep players attentive to the things happening around them.
There is also the impact and relationship roamers have on CC classes. CC classes are designed to manage chaos and turn un-winnable situations into successful encounters. Roaming mobs help create chaos in "static" encounters and add another element that has to be managed.
Then there is the aspect of the world being alive. Roaming NPCs can help sell the illusion that the world is a living and breathing place. For example, traveling merchants can help make the world feel connected and also be used to enhance lore in some situations.
I am really excited to see how VR implements roaming NPCs with the disposition system and AI system.
Vandraad said:I really believe that the true evolution of the MMO is getting away from the permanently static NPC, the one that stands there day after day never moving from their spot. All NPCs should have a life, some movement that give the game a bit more realism. And yes, this means that merchants should be closing down at night so if you want to buy stuff at night, go find the black market or back-alley shops. Cities should be filled with citizens going about their daily activities, guards doing patrols, etc.
For any NPC group that has even the most basic of societal structure and lives in an area with buildings, etc, should also be filled with movement. NPCs moving around should be the default and the more static but not permanently static should be rare. Yes, a guard set to guard a specific location? Sure, but even then he should be replaced every so often and a guard patrol should be passing by routinely.
Animals, especially, should be roaming far and wide because that's what animals do. They look for food and have to go miles to get it. Make animal NPCs reflect that.
I wanted to touch onthe Guards doing patrols. Somethig that always kind of rubbed me the wrong way was guards agroing a PC or MOB off thier path, and then when done, stand there a moment, like in a daze, then run back to their pathing, stop, turn and continue their pathing. It is so unnatural.
It would be nice to see them take a more direct route from their diversion to the next waypoint or back to their path. Also would like those routes to be somewhat fluid and random.
I sometimes felt like a bank robber timing guards, when I would wait for them to go by and then start a timer so we would all know when they would be back and to move out of the way beforehand.
Zorkon said:Ranarius said:bcd2018 said:I am also hoping to see something different when it comes to aggroe range than what other games (that I have played) have had. Having your party throwing spells and doing battle crys to kill 1 mob, while 3 other mobs within sight and 40yds away just stand there and ignore you is silly.
I agree this is silly, but I'm not sure of a good way to "fix" that problem. One way would be to make the mobs more scarce (far enough apart that they can't hear or see each other), but that seems like it would ruin all sorts of other things.
Ultimatly were not dealing with actual mobs, it's a computer program.
- There is the base agro range that we all know and love, (let's say that's at 25m for this particular mob)
- Doesn't seem it would be that hard to add a "Sound agro Range" (This is set at 50m, same programming as the base range just larger)
- And then a "LOS agro Range" (This is set to 75m combined with LOS thats already in the programming for spell casting)
IF the mob is within 50m (Sound agro Range) but not in Sight it might start walking tword the sound of it's screaming comrade, until it got into LOS then attack. Of course values and formulas would all need tuned for the type of MOB and the enviroment (open area vs. Dungons) Doesn't seem like a hard add (if it's not already in)
As for the roaming YES, I'm 100% in favor. I would like to hope for TRUE random roaming, Having been in the EQ2 builder "Landmark" (Done some pathing for mobs) and played enough games to know I have never seen a truly ROAMING Mob, they are always set on a path, and predictable. Although they may have multiple paths they might roam (Quillmane in EQ =4 possable paths) they can all be tracked and we eventually know where they will be. IF VR could come up with an algorithm that would allow a mob to path arround a given perimiter (Zone extents for some) randomly without running into walls and getting stuck that would be very inviting. Basic Pathed "roaming' at the least is a must (if we must settle).
Active Mobs, Yes to the mercant's going home at night and closing shop, More so to the Merchant being active while at the shop. I know, nothing to gain by that besides the world coming to life but hey, I'm a romatic. Yes to the change of the Guard probably 3 times a day, probably rotatin shifts to keep things to a 40 hour work week.... possably random guard changes, ya never know WHAT guard is going to be on duty. and
And while asking too much... a grand Changing of the Guard ceremony in ThrownFest for Launch would be extreamly cool!
I've been playing some Ghost Recon lately, and the NPCs do this, if you do something to alert them, they will be on alert and maybe even send out a search party to where you were when they were alerted. It's actually a good way to pick them off one by one, but it really adds some life to the game. :)
Zorkon said:
Ultimatly were not dealing with actual mobs, it's a computer program.
- There is the base agro range that we all know and love, (let's say that's at 25m for this particular mob)
- Doesn't seem it would be that hard to add a "Sound agro Range" (This is set at 50m, same programming as the base range just larger)
- And then a "LOS agro Range" (This is set to 75m combined with LOS thats already in the programming for spell casting)
IF the mob is within 50m (Sound agro Range) but not in Sight it might start walking tword the sound of it's screaming comrade, until it got into LOS then attack. Of course values and formulas would all need tuned for the type of MOB and the enviroment (open area vs. Dungons) Doesn't seem like a hard add (if it's not already in)
yeah something like this would be good.
Alternately the world could just be set up differently from the standard MMORPG. In WOW, for example, you could be fighting a mob and his fellow mobs are standing around just on the other side of the fire pit and doing nothing.
If this game were setup with more building and structure for mobs to be in/around then it would be more common to be able to find/fight mobs and not be in the LOS of other mobs. Also maybe some classes could have something like a distract ability. This would be where they could maybe throw a rock to distract a mob and draw it to a location away from you, while at the same time making a small sound to draw a closer mob to you and around a corner, thereby seperating the mobs.