heya team!
Mugz here with another topic that has been on my mind a time or two. Is there a system or feature in Pantheon that you just can't get onboard with? Be it not fully fleshed out or just a system that doesnt sound fun to you. Maybe its something the will start off amazing but over time just fizzle into gimmicky?
For me that would be the mastery system and no, not the system itself, but that at some point you will be able to max out all mastery paths ( could have changed but as i recall this was the last mention of the system). The mastery system will provide ALOT of variation between same class life, but i feel like you missed the whole decide your own play style when you offer an option to have... well everything.I am a big believer of less is more. yes im aware of the limited action set that will add variation but im a big fan of firm decision and being able to work harder to max out all lines just doesnt feel like the way to go. Now rare spell and ability drops i approve.
Agree? Disagree? What other game feature are you still not sold on
---Mastery is a game mechanic in Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen. Through the Mastery System, Players earn points referred to as Mastery Points which they can choose to spend on upgrading their Spells & Abilities, or spend them on incremental improvements of their character directly.---
The mastery system doesn't really bother me. I think it's a good thing not to segment a class into specs and allow players to unlock a class's full potential. I just hope that doing so takes a decent amount of time investment. I think that the limited action set, group comps, and situational circumstances will help break up meta-based gameplay.
I think that there are a lot of systems that still need to be explained a bit further and shown off a bit more. I also think that the best way to experience a system is firsthand because how it actually plays out might be different from the way it was intended.
That being said, there is something that I am still not 100% sold on, that being the lack of a two-handed melee DPS. It's possible that the dire lord, warrior, or paladin could have a skill/mastery build that utilizes two-handed weapons for DPS. However, those classes have been "marketed" as filling a tanking role, and there isn't really anything under their class preview pages that would suggest a two-handed dps build.
I have felt the same.
In a game where "All actions (or lack thereof) have consequences", I feel it is reasonable to expect that the way you build your character should allow for some Class builds to be better (at some things) at max level than others. Which inevitably allows for some to be not as good. Not useless or unplayable, just not as good. Given the MP reset we've been told would be available (at least some number of times) for each character, I don't see many players being significantly oppressed by a limited number of MPs.
At the same time, I understand the other side of the coin. With a capped number of MPs, a player could have spent his points (and his resets) as wisely as possible, only to find new content - perhaps even an expansion - arriving and making his previous choice NOT the wisest. That could certainly cause a lot of unhappiness and complaints.
It is also possible that having such a cap might contribute to more players choosing to stick to a meta, given the greater chance of making mistakes in char development.
I can't say that this is a serious issue for me, but I do lean maybe 55% / 45% towards favoring a cap on how many skills can be maxed.
Big fan of being able to max all masteries over a long period of time and being able to truly become a "Master." Long have I disliked the splitting of classes into "specs" and the effect that tends to have on grouping/desirability among members of the same class.
I was sold on masteries as well. It got me really hyped to think there will be clear differences between players within the same class.
I am not worried about people eventually obtaining all masteries being a problem until multiple years in. I don't think it will be all that common to see people with maxed masteries. Most players won't grind it all out and keep in mind you will need to do multiple sources of earning masteries, not simply xp grinding. I am worried about the respec process pantheon will have. That will promote the meta/FOTM builds far more than players who have played over 1000 hours on a single PC will have every mastery point.
This reminds me of A.A. in EverQuest. It seems to me that a min-max meta will develop where some builds are decidedly better than others. Allowing multiple re-specs might result in less diversity, as players chased the meta.
When I am choosing feats or spells in Dungeons and Dragons, as long as my "numbers" are adequate, I prefer more capabilities to higher numbers.
Perhaps a way to maintain class mastery diversity is to emphasize Utility over DPS (because it is certain that characters will gravitate towards DPS regardless). Identify activities that are "fun" for that class to do, and have masteries that improve that activity.
For example, I intend to explore the Big Deep, no matter how dangerous or futile that may be. It would be fun for me to have Masteries that made it easier to traverse the Deep and take a group with me. As long as choosing such a mastery did not cripple my character in other groups or raids, that would be a decent choice.
Players will demand better numbers, but don't let that be the only rational choice.
My priority is having a game that allows players to make decisions and having those decisions matter. Choice of class - obviously. Pick a class whose role is to heal and you will not do as much damage as a damage class or have as much defense as a tank class. You will probably not be able to solo as well as most classes. The choice will almost surely be permanent - don't like the result you need to start over. Choice of race - the same to a far lesser extent. You will do some things better because of that choice and some things less well. Don't like the result and you will need to start over barring some "race change" magic.
I have long been a fan of sub-classes or specializations that let different players tailor what the character can do to their own preferences while playing the class they have selected. Thus a hunter being able to specialize in ranged combat and traps - or in melee combat and pets. While remaining a hunter either way. Or a healer specializing in direct heals or heals over time. Or a mage getting fire abilities that do more damage or cold abilities that do less damage but have more debuffs and slows. Where this is done by subclasses it is a one-time decision - all or nothing - typically. Where it is done by specialization it is mix and match typically and the player can choose a compromise blend that is more flexible but weaker at any one thing than a "pure" selection would be.
Mastery has elements of this and I applaud the idea. But if a character can get *everything* over time - in the end it will have none of these things. It will just be a grind and the evils Iksar correctly cites will apply fully. Rather than groups refusing to take people because of their choices - groups will care only about how much grinding was done and groups will require members to be full masters not 90% masters or 70% masters or mere masterlings.
Groups *will* pick and choose. I far prefer the selection to be based on decisions I have made rather than whether the character in question has spent 2,000 hours to get everything or whether she has been lazy and only done the grinding for 1,800 hours.
My interpretation of that the OP means is: with mastery, someone will discover the ultimate min-max for the class and that will be the status quo for uber guild A.
What I understand the Mastery concept to be is: A way to slow down exp-ing to apply experience to things to boost skills or spells so you dont level too fast. Unfortunately this is dependent on things like a trivial loot code for quest items. If you want to meta-game everything at each level then the mastery system can help because you can dump exp into mastery points and stay at a level to complete neat quests for items that may turn out to be worth it in later game, strategically instead of leveling past the appropriate level for the item and having it become trivial, or non-lootable.
The draw back is: will you evern run out of mastery points to spend?
My theory-crafting question is: Can mastery points be stored and spent en-masse for something cathartic? (multi-class ressurection one-time clicky? race change? 1, limit 1, up to level 30 spell or skill from any another class? {wizard with bash? omgosh} indifferent faction with only one native race/creature/monster? {bears love me now, F.U. holly! - not you V.R. Holly, another holly})
Manouk said:What I understand the Mastery concept to be is: A way to slow down exp-ing to apply experience to things to boost skills or spells so you dont level too fast. Unfortunately this is dependent on things like a trivial loot code for quest items. If you want to meta-game everything at each level then the mastery system can help because you can dump exp into mastery points and stay at a level to complete neat quests for items that may turn out to be worth it in later game, strategically instead of leveling past the appropriate level for the item and having it become trivial, or non-lootable.
You're description of the uses of Mastery are very different from what I've understood VR to be saying.
I don't recall VR ever saying anything about spending XP to acquire Mastery Points. If they have, please tell me where to look for that.
The MPs will have their own bar, just like your XP bar. When the Mastery Bar is full, you earn a Point. There will be some quests that reward you with MPs. "Incredibly rare creatures" that grant one when slain. "incredibly rare items, called Mastery Shards" that can drop from mobs. Collect enough and a Crafter can put them together into a Mastery Crystal, which can be turned in to an NPC for an MP. As far as I know, these are the ways VR has told us we'll get MPs.
You can spend MPs on a specific ability, to improve that ability up to a max of 3 times. You can also spend it on "incremental improvements" to some of your stats. A key point I know they made was that MPs won't be usable on 'primary' stats like STR, STA,... WIS, CHR. They will only be usable on secondary abilities. Perhaps melee haste, or attack rating, or dodge, etc. Also key is the word "incremental". That strongly suggests to me that spending MPs in this way will not be as advantageous as upgrading abilities, at least until most if not all your frequenstly-used abilities are at Mastery Level 3.
The draw back is: will you evern run out of mastery points to spend?My theory-crafting question is: Can mastery points be stored and spent en-masse for something cathartic? (multi-class ressurection one-time clicky? race change? 1, limit 1, up to level 30 spell or skill from any another class? {wizard with bash? omgosh} indifferent faction with only one native race/creature/monster? {bears love me now, F.U. holly! - not you V.R. Holly, another holly})
I have no idea if a Player will ever NOT be able to earn more MPs. Barring a change, we will be able to get every ability we have to Mastery Lvl. 3. And we will be able to keep earning them after level cap.
You certainly can save up your MPs and spend a bunch at once. When we see a Dev in a steam with a mid to higher level character they made for the stream, we often see that they didn't bother to spend the MPs the character has. The number of unspent MPs is on their main 'Armor & Stat' UI, to the right of the Mastery bar, just below the XP bar.
EDIT: Well on further research, I wasn't exactly accurate. None of the specific things you mentioned have been suggested as uses. But there are more possible uses than I remembered. A year ago in a Dev Roundtable, Joppa mentioned some other uses besides improving Abilities:
"as far as general char development, players will also be able to invest MPs into several incremental improvements for their char, everything from a bonus to faction gain, increasing stat caps, altering your base movement, swimming and climbing speed, enhancing acclimation bonus, non-attribute stat (which is the one I mentioned) . Again, these are very incremental, not meant to be big bonuses but intended to be slow, building of your character"
He also confirmed that we will still be able to gain MPs after level cap, by the various ways already mentioned. Either to finish getting every abillity to Mastery lvl 3, or alternately to spend on the 'incremental increases' that he mentioned.
mugwy44 said:heya team!
Mugz here with another topic that has been on my mind a time or two. Is there a system or feature in Pantheon that you just can't get onboard with? Be it not fully fleshed out or just a system that doesnt sound fun to you. Maybe its something the will start off amazing but over time just fizzle into gimmicky?
I system that I am currently wary about is the weather system and how it may effect our gameplay. Namely rain and lightning. I do not wish the rain to effect my climbing ability. BOTW's slipping off a mountain while climbing was the most infuriating thing about that game for me. I also would not like to take damage if struck by lightning while wearing/carrying some form of metal armor/sheild. I understand how these systems improve immersion, but I feel that the acclimation system will more than suffice as a gatekeeper.
Jothany said:The MPs will have their own bar, just like your XP bar. When the Mastery Bar is full, you earn a Point. There will be some quests that reward you with MPs. "Incredibly rare creatures" that grant one when slain. "incredibly rare items, called Mastery Shards" that can drop from mobs. Collect enough and a Crafter can put them together into a Mastery Crystal, which can be turned in to an NPC for an MP. As far as I know, these are the ways VR has told us we'll get MPs
Just to build on this...
Joppa told us that you will always gain 1 Mastery Point each time you level up. So right away at level 2 you will gain your first Mastery Point, then again another one when you reach level 3, etc...
As Jothany said, you also will have a special Mastery bar that fills up as you adventure, just like your Normal Experience bar does. The difference is such:
Each new Level requires an increased Experience cost to gain the next level as the last one did. For example: Level 2 may require 100 exp, Level 3 then requires 150 more exp, Level 4 then requires 300 more exp, etc...
Yet each Mastery Point will always require the same amount of Mastery Experience no matter how many you've earned. For example perhaps each Mastery Point always requires exactly 1000 Mastery Experience.
This means that at Low levels, you will gain levels faster than you gain Mastery Points. Joppa suggests that you may not fill your Mastery Experience bar for the first time until around level 10. Yet by level 30 you may be gaining 2 or 3 Mastery Points per level. And at level 49 you may be gaining 5 or 6 Mastery Points before you reach level 50.
Joppa said that they do have a target goal for how many points they expect a player to have earned through normal leveling by the time they reach level 50. But this does not take into account players who go above and beyond to seek out and earn extra Mastery Points through things like Quests, or gaining Mastery Shards and/or Mastery Crystals.
Joppa said that through these 'Alternate' ways to earn Mastery Points two different players, both at level 30, may actually have a large difference in total Mastery Points.
Thanks for the added clarification Goofy.
Edit: Nevermind, I found it.
Balanz said: Nothing stupid, like the 115 levels of modern EQ, but I think the developers are missing an opportunity to do things better if they stick to a hard cap of 50 forever and anon.
Oh boy, you would have loved Asheron's Call. At release, max level was 126. A later expansion (the last one, I think) raised it to level 275!
You could say that AC involved a fair bit of grinding :)
I think the idea is to allow a player to unlock the full potential of a class, but force the player to pick and choose how they are going to utilize the class in specific circumstances. There is going to be a need to have to 're-tool' so to speak throughout your journey, and it's your job to figure out the abilities and skills you want to bring to the table.