There was a lot of great content in the October newsletter, but one little remark near the beginning caught my eye.
“We are also considering a guild reward system, where guilds can actively earn rewards for growing their community. More details on this as it unfolds.”
Now, I’m not sure what form these “rewards” would take. I’m guessing maybe some little buffs for guild members like a small boost to xp or faction gain, or maybe a spiffy title or something. While the exact nature of the rewards might be unknown at this point, I have to be honest that I have some big concerns about this any way you slice it. In my opinion, features that actively reward people for belonging to a large guild don’t do anything good for the social structure of a game. I’ll try to sum my worries up in four points.
1. Big guilds are more impersonal.
It doesn’t take a social scientist to know that the bigger a guild gets the less people actually know each other. Many big guilds are like big corporations – monolithic faceless entities that become increasingly more regimented and increasingly less personal as they grow. More regimentation equals less freedom and less individuality, which equals less meaningful connection between players – even if there are more of them in one place. Sure, maybe some of us prefer that kind of “corporate socialization” over having a deeper connection with a smaller number of people at a time, and that’s fine. But that should be something left up to the players, not something actively pushed by the game. If the goal of Pantheon is to foster meaningful interaction between players, incentivizing the creation of the biggest guilds possible is not the way to do it.
2. Systems that reward the big also penalize the small – and there’s nothing wrong with being small.
What if a small group of ten or fifteen people want to form their own little adventuring guild? They already know they won’t be able to tackle the raid content a big guild would, but perhaps they feel it’s worth it in order to keep the closeness and comradery inherent in a smaller guild. But should they also have to take a hit to their xp or faction gain (or whatever is enhanced by being in a large guild) just because they want to stay small? In addition to just being wrong, there is also the issue that most of these small guilds are likely to get swallowed up by the big ones so that players can get their perks, creating a game world where the big get bigger and the small die out. Bad for diversity and, I strongly believe, ultimately bad for the game.
3. It creates unnecessary boxes for the player.
It’s been said time and again that Pantheon aims to present the player with meaningful choices, whether that be which faction to follow or when to use a special ability in combat. But a feature like a reward system for big guilds presents the individual with a very un-meaningful choice: either join a large guild and get rewarded, or stay solo/join a smaller guild and be penalized. In fact, this isn’t really a choice at all, inasmuch as the individual will feel compelled to join a big guild to get the perks that go with it, even if they don’t really want to. There is no good reason to force a player into this corner. It doesn’t promote meaningful socialization (quite the opposite, as outlined above) and it doesn’t add anything to the player’s gaming experience. All it does is push people who value quality over quantity to go against their nature so they aren’t left out.
4. It encourages an “us and them” mindset.
This is my biggest concern. Guild competition and rancor is already a problem in many games, and people have in the past expressed concern on these forums about how things like the potential locking down of content by large guilds could create serious problems. While this issue can probably never be completely fixed (human nature and all that), I think that rewarding guilds for having more members only makes it worse by fostering needless competition between guilds. Competition is great when it’s at the level of a consensual contest, but not when it’s injected into the very fabric of a social game. I fear that giving guilds another reason to compete for members will only increase the level of toxicity and social antagonism and cause people to identify with their guild more than with the community as a whole, dividing the player base instead of uniting it. God knows there’s enough of that in the world these days already.
Just to be clear, none of this is meant to be an indictment of large guilds in general. While they may not be my cup of tea, I think it’s fine if people want to join one for their own reasons. I just don’t think it should be incentivized with a guild rewards program that encourages people to join a big guild even if they’d rather not otherwise. Devs, please consider whether this is really a system that would add something to the game, or whether it is (as I strongly feel) an idea that may look good on paper, but that would only work against the very principle upon which Pantheon is being built – that of being a true community-centric game where players can share real adventures together once again.
Fellow Pantheists, whether you agree or disagree with me, please drop a comment and share your thoughts. And devs, if you guys can offer any further info on the proposed guild reward system that might help to put my mind at ease, please feel free to do so. But please also consider the above concerns.
Gyl
TL;DR: It’s my belief that incentivizing the creation of large guilds with a guild reward program for having more members will undermine the concept of meaningful socialization that is the founding tenet of Pantheon. Let’s question whether a feature like this is needed or would actually be a detriment to the game.
I agree with most of your points and like to believe that the Pantheon base does as well.
These are not nesc going to be in-game bonuses. They are a pledge drive. Judging by past pledge and RaF bonus I'm not sure we need to worry about what you're saying.
That being said I'd hope there is some cap even for those.
I want joining a guild to be an organic part of Playing the game. I'm sorry I don't want to play social media pantheon for a couple of years.. heh. I'll also have auto-decline for Guild invites turned on.
GeneralReb said:I agree with most of your points and like to believe that the Pantheon base does as well.
These are not nesc going to be in-game bonuses. They are a pledge drive. Judging by past pledge and RaF bonus I'm not sure we need to worry about what you're saying.
That being said I'd hope there is some cap even for those.
I want joining a guild to be an organic part of Playing the game. I'm sorry I don't want to play social media pantheon for a couple of years.. heh. I'll also have auto-decline for Guild invites turned on.
Spot on mate, this is a pledge drive to help with funding the game (and no we're not desperate, we're just being smart about how we manage our development).
I remember one of the biggest guilds in VG was a family-friendly adventure and crafting guild that ran events every week for the whole server, so big guilds don't necessarily mean a bad thing.
I too see the potential problem of rewarding guilds for simply having more members. One of my pet peeves is when you join a mmo and random people just send you guild invites out of the blue. They simply search for unguilded individuals and just rapid fire them out hoping people accept. Generally these are games that collect guild taxes or something similar and they simply exist for gobbling up newbies and funneling the reward to individuals at the top. I believe they are called Potato Guilds. Now I understand that does not quite line up with what VR is doing here but it does incentivize people to just blindly collect members for no other reason other than to pad a stat for some sort of reward.
I dont recall if vangaurd had guild size tied to anything in game. I played in the same small guild I raided with in EQ/2 and WOW.
I do worry about guild size getting tied in game Perks this is what happened in WOW EQ2. ESO has this as well you need to be in a guild of x size to unlock guild perks guild hall systems that become "needed" so you join a big guild for these Perks.
If some one wants to have a guild of 6 or 24 or 500 what the game provides them should be the same. Let it be players choice.
I get the OP's point regarding in-game, but I think I am missing the point of VR's intent in their use of the term guild beause I saw how generalReb explained it and the subsequent follow-up. I mean, what generalreb said and what was followed up implied to me that they have an understanding- its clear to them and it is benign and not what the OP is thinking its just that...I dont get what that is, heh. I get the spirit, but not the substance
Howevr, regarding the OP's point of big guilds in general, I'm kinda split. I do like seeing top end sophisticated guilds where you have to be sharp as glass to play in and they take things seriously because they tend to set the bar and tend to defeat or open top end encounters. This is important because it shows the community of players that it is doable and that someone had figured out the strats. "What one man can invent, another can discover" Sherlock Holmes. Considering the psychology of MMO's where everyone starts out the same, the fact that this is achievable by some intuitively implies that it is achievable by all. How the "all" decide to go about achieving those same goals is what gives flavor and character to each other guild or group. Often, there is some noblesse oblige that some in those high end guilds express in the form of loot bargains, or strat sharing, or event hosting where leadership plays a key role and is often immitated. There is something humanly satisfying about seeing another make it through an encounter with your help or encouragement and reap the benefits thereof for themselves. Many people have had experiences like this with loot and were told to pass it on to someone they may meet in their future, I have seen this done with top end encounters to much greater effect. I think it is this kind of community outreach in game that VR wil also be looking for or perhaps encouraging if possible. Honestly the only way I can see it is maybe through GM events where said chosen guild gets to see how the sausages are made, so-to-speak, as the guild actively participates with the GM's in the event run for the server. How they behave during said event will determine if they get soul-stamped or whatever but unfortunately this approaches the slippery slope of labor laws and all it takes is for someone to be a jerk about it. Otherwise, it gets back to reputation, and if its solely reputation then like the OP I think yes, there is that self-imposed incarceration that comes with it (us & them)
Kilsin is right when he says a big guild isn't necessarily a bad guild. But, with all due respect, he is missing the point.
The point is that some guilds will want to be huge and will recruit accordingly. Nothing in this program will affect them - they would do the same with no in-game incentives.
Some guilds will prefer to be medium size or small for reasons that seem good to them (and to me for that matter). This program gives an artificial incentive for them to grow beyong the spot they would otherwise consider the "sweet spot" in order to get the rewards - cosmetic or otherwise.
Yes, Kilsin, some huge guilds are very good. Some tiny guilds are very ...not good. But, and equally, some huge guilds are very bad and some tiny guilds are very good. Let us not have the game interfere with this dynamic and bias guilds to be larger than they otherwise would be. This helps no one - anyone that wants a large guild will assuredly be able to find one. Probably anyone that wants a small and more personal guild will be able to find one as well but this program would make that harder.
The program will also burden general chat or zone chat or OOC chat or whatever else is available with more and more "guildspam" as guilds try for the rewards. Seeing 25 guilds advertise within the course of 10 minutes is not a plus - far from it. When aggressive enough it can be worse than the goldspammers. Please don't go there.
VR has done a good job so far.
I think I fell away for 4 years... bracing for a rock to fall... it never has that I know of.
These guys are sticking to the "vision"
I THINK they've made it known that they can stay the course and launch on crowd-funding alone. We all agree we don't want to wait that long, but... we DO want that game, VR included.
These guys have seen WAY MORE MMO industry than I have. They KNOW what the real problems are with losing your game to outside influence.
I get your concerns but I say... innocent until guilty. I know. That's always true until it's too late.
I think that if VR was willing to... deviate... they already could have.
The game is looking great. SOMEONE out there wants to get their claws in already I would assume.
To quote a movie I really like... "tHeY isn't cracking" ;)
dorotea said:Kilsin is right when he says a big guild isn't necessarily a bad guild. But, with all due respect, he is missing the point.
The point is that some guilds will want to be huge and will recruit accordingly. Nothing in this program will affect them - they would do the same with no in-game incentives.
Some guilds will prefer to be medium size or small for reasons that seem good to them (and to me for that matter). This program gives an artificial incentive for them to grow beyong the spot they would otherwise consider the "sweet spot" in order to get the rewards - cosmetic or otherwise.
Yes, Kilsin, some huge guilds are very good. Some tiny guilds are very ...not good. But, and equally, some huge guilds are very bad and some tiny guilds are very good. Let us not have the game interfere with this dynamic and bias guilds to be larger than they otherwise would be. This helps no one - anyone that wants a large guild will assuredly be able to find one. Probably anyone that wants a small and more personal guild will be able to find one as well but this program would make that harder.
The program will also burden general chat or zone chat or OOC chat or whatever else is available with more and more "guildspam" as guilds try for the rewards. Seeing 25 guilds advertise within the course of 10 minutes is not a plus - far from it. When aggressive enough it can be worse than the goldspammers. Please don't go there.
Respectfully, what does it matter though? All they get are cosmetics and things that don't affect gameplay. It's more to help us raise funds to keep a healthy development pace and bring in new hires where we can, I can't imagine guilds spamming servers and PMing as many people as they can to obtain a fluff title or cosmetic item but if it gets out of hand, we will step in and fix it plus you can always use the block function in-game so you don't have to see that kind of stuff.
We're always monitoring for things like this my friend and I would expect you all to tell me as soon as something like this happened so I could act but I don't think this will be as big a problem as people are fearing :)
If it is something that is done prelaunch (not sure how easy this would be) I am completely on board. However I do think if there is something available (whether that will be "fluff") it will definitely be something a large proportion of people desire (people like to collect things/be completionists) and lead to guild spamming and random invites. There is enough of this already if you look at any MMO on the market without extra desirables.
Again encouraging large guilds or 'super guilds' could even more encourage 'content blocking' down the line, although I hope (and I am sure) this is something you are already considering with development.
"Respectfully, what does it matter though? All they get are cosmetics and things that don't affect gameplay. It's more to help us raise funds to keep a healthy development pace and bring in new hires where we can, I can't imagine guilds spamming servers and PMing as many people as they can to obtain a fluff title or cosmetic item but if it gets out of hand, we will step in and fix it plus you can always use the block function in-game so you don't have to see that kind of stuff."
If it brings in more money and speeds up (or maintains) the pace of development - great! I am all for that. Over the years I have repeatedly supported things I don't especially want in the game if I thought they increased the chance of success. A 100% perfect game that fails does us all no good. A 75% perfect game that succeeds does us all enormous good. So I stand by my opinion that this will not enhance gameplay but do not say (and never have said) this is a bad thing for VR to do. Its all a matter of weighing plusses against minuses as almost everything in life is.
Adrenicus said:If it is something that is done prelaunch (not sure how easy this would be) I am completely on board. However I do think if there is something available (whether that will be "fluff") it will definitely be something a large proportion of people desire (people like to collect things/be completionists) and lead to guild spamming and random invites. There is enough of this already if you look at any MMO on the market without extra desirables.
Again encouraging large guilds or 'super guilds' could even more encourage 'content blocking' down the line, although I hope (and I am sure) this is something you are already considering with development.
I agree. We've already had "disagreements" with people who call themselves "collectors" and say that they will do everything within their "power" to collect everything available in some of the other threads around "bonuses".
As long as it is not combat bonuses. Unless VR goes mad and gives resist bonuses to big guilds I don't really care.
I would rather the guild bonuses be directed into the eventual guild houses and ships. Private guild auction houses in ideal locations popping up. Needing the guild to defend them in game to keep them functional.
I appreciate everyone’s comments on this, and the extra info Kilsin provided. I actually didn’t realize this was a pledge drive type program when I first read about it. I understand VR has to walk that line of keeping the game’s integrity while also raising funds to make sure there is a game. The details of the program (whether it is ongoing after launch, whether the rewards are cosmetic only, etc.) certainly have the potential to allay some of my concerns, and I agree that if handled properly, the good a program like this can do pledge-wise can certainly outweigh any negatives. At the very least, it would be something that would need to be implemented very mindfully, but as Qendiil said above, VR has faithfully stuck to their vision so far, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt. ;) While it’s not something I care to see from a pure gameplay perspective, if it serves a higher purpose and can be done in such a way that it doesn’t cause major issues, I can see the benefit of it.