I hope Joppa doesn't take this the wrong way, but I feel that VR should consider going back and taking another look at the ambient music for Pantheon, because right now I feel that they are going to miss the mark on such a critical element.
While the music that has been created thus far is well composed in its own right, it just feels disconnected. I think this is because the instruments used in its creation fail to reflect the types of instruments that would likely be used by the inhabitants of Terminus.
When creating music for Pantheon, I think it would be beneficial to ask the question: Does jumping on the, "orchestral-like music bandwagon" actually contribute to the music feeling like it is the product of the inhabitants of the world or does it detract? I've seen so many games go down the "orchestral" path and sure it might make for some good YouTube listening, but none have had the same calming, almost hypnotic effect on me than say, EQ's much simpler bard-like melodies have had while actually in game. I think this is because there is this fundamental disconnect. Now don't get me wrong, I’m certainly not suggesting midi music, as that is not what I’m getting at here, but what I am getting at is that I think serious consideration should be given to creating calming atmospheric pockets throughout Terminus with instruments that are actually analogous to the types that would likely be used by characters in such a world, otherwise the music just feels, as I said, disconnected.
Where have you heard the music created so far? Just wondering because I've only heard what I'm guessing is the main theme at the intro to their streams. Is there a place to check out the rest of the music made so far? I'm sure they'll use a multitude of instruments depending on the zone.
Eq had midi files musics, which was kind of forced to be "simple bard like".
I don't feel music is disconnected but I'm awaiting to hear it at the right moment as well. Eq music had trumpets of some sort (kaladim theme as an example) and/or a lot of music but the quality of sound was quite bad overall.
I do get the mirth thing you started on another topic but I fear you mix nostalgia of good old days versus the new technology benefits we can have.
@Morraak
The only thing I thinks is disconnected, is peoples expectations of pantheon. Pantheon is not EQ, it is not a remake, a sequel, a prequel or any facsimile of EQ. A “spiritual successor” made evolving some of EQ’s Developers with a set of core values is the most Pantheon is to EQ.
Pantheon will stand on its own merit, it will thrive with its own uniqueness. Constantly reminding a creator that current work isn't like their past work is rather insulting in my opinion. Have faith in the unseen professionals bringing back an era of greatness.
Morraak
So without going back and watching every video they have released to date to get the relevant time stamps, I’ll just post one where they actually mention the ambient music I am talking about, though mind you that is obviously just one small example and not a very good one with all of their talking drowning out the music:
https://youtu.be/qnQD5xoQADE?t=1834
MauvaisOeil
I’m aware of the midi music thing as evidenced by the distinction I drew about it. So there is no misplaced nostalgia there. I thought I was pretty clear in that I was advocating for an emphasis on "types of instruments" used. Maybe I should have qualified that as folk instruments rather than just "types of instruments".
I’m not sure if you have ever listened to the original uncompressed EQ music, but most of it was originally composed with folk instruments before it was compressed to midi; though there are a couple of instruments that were used that would not be considered folk, one being the piano. What I am advocating for is ambient music composed using the same or similar folk instruments in clean, high fidelity, uncompressed, non-midi form. I hope that makes more sense.
HemlockReaper said:
Constantly reminding a creator that current work isn't like their past work is rather insulting in my opinion.
While I do have fondness for their past work, I thought it was discernible that I am advocating for music being composed with instruments that more closely align with what the inhabitants of Terminus would use, e.g folk instruments. I am advocating for this for the purpose of helping the music feel more connected. If you are going to get triggered when someone uses EQ to try to explain a concept then I don't know what to tell you. It's not about the specific game I am referencing, its the type of instruments. Would it ease your frustrations if I used Morrowind instead? lol.
Orchestral scores can produce soundtrack appropriate to pretty much anything.
I don't agree that high fantasy = folk music.
I'm not saying you are 'wrong' because what 'works' music-wise for people is hugely subjective.
I'm saying for me high fantasy and heroic endeavours will often require compositions you just can't achieve with some simple and bard-like.
There will of course be situations where that might be appropriate, but I don't feel you'd be in danger of 'missing the mark' with other kinds of scores in most situations. In fact I think you'd find it much easier to miss the mark with folk music than orchestral.
I'm a fan of folk music. I have played and sung it myself to earn beer in pubs and take part in folk festivals. I'm also a fan of classical music and have played in an amateur orchestra. There is a place for both, but one (orchestral) is much more flexible than the other, especially when it comes to a varied, ambient soundtrack.
disposalist said:There is a place for both.
Oh I agree with you there. I think there would certainly be places where orchestral type music would be more appropriate such as Thronefast. I’m definitely not suggesting the game only have one type of music, though it does seem that if I reference EQ there are some who automatically assume that's what I mean.
Nekentros said:instruments that more closely align with what the inhabitants of Terminus would use, e.g folk instruments.
What would the sound of 'magic' be? Maybe a soundtrack full of weird synthesisers would be appropriate?
Anyway, if we follow that logic, we should also have pseudo-medieval UI and graphic fidelity. Basic and crude, but folksy?
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just saying that lots of people don't look at a fantasy game and think everything about it should be developed as if medieval. It would feel very overdone, on-the-nose and twee.
Some of my friends wouldn't go in the taverns in LOTRO because of the 'bard entertainment' hehe. I must admit the tinkly music on repeat was pretty tooth-grindingly annoying after a while.
Though maybe the bards guild is that powerful? Any music that can't be played by one guy in a suit of armor gets eradicated with extreme prejudice?
disposalist said:
everything about it should be developed as if
I’m not sure where you are getting this idea that I’m suggesting "everything" be like something. I've never said that. What I am trying to say is that there seems to be a lack of "something" and that by adding it where appropriate, it would make relevant things feel more connected.
Nekentros said:
disposalist said:
everything about it should be developed as if
I’m not sure where you are getting this idea that I’m suggesting "everything" be like something. I've never said that. What I am trying to say is that there seems to be a lack of "something" and that by adding it where appropriate, it would make certain things feel more connected.
Well, you were saying that 'ambient music' feels diconnected and didn't say "where appropriate". It felt like you were saying we need 'bard music' everywhere.
If you're not, cool. Yeah, that bard music will be great in some places.
But if that's the case, I'm pretty sure it's a wait-and-see thing. That is just the kind of thing that will have place holders in pre-alpha.
If you're passionate about it maybe pick some areas you think it would be good and give some examples of other music that would work.
I would say that Joppa, who was initially responsible for some of the music, is now directing the show much more, so I would expect music would be getting good attention. Eventually.
I may have missed it, but do we have any idea who is going to be doing the music now?
I wouldn't mind seeing Oscar Garvin compose the music for Pantheon.
I think this may be down to personal preference. I am one of those people who will set the game's background music to loop continuously if that setting is available and the music is done well. A good, thematic score (in terms of zone background music) is something I really appreciate in these games.
As for style - given the high fantasy setting, I feel like orchestral is appropriate. That said, that's still a very broad range.
Chris has made a lot of truely wonderful music already, and I very much look forward to hearing it in game.
As a reference, some of you may be interested in this: https://soundcloud.com/pantheon-rotf and also https://soundcloud.com/chrisperkinsmusic ;(this has one more track - Fall of the Great King).
My favourite by far is The Snow Falls.
EQ for its time had so much amazing ambient music, really well done when it was all created through midi also.
HemlockReaper said:The only thing I thinks is disconnected, is peoples expectations of pantheon. Pantheon is not EQ, it is not a remake, a sequel, a prequel or any facsimile of EQ. A “spiritual successor” made evolving some of EQ’s Developers with a set of core values is the most Pantheon is to EQ.
Pantheon will stand on its own merit, it will thrive with its own uniqueness. Constantly reminding a creator that current work isn't like their past work is rather insulting in my opinion. Have faith in the unseen professionals bringing back an era of greatness.
And your point is...?
Lol - OP did not say that Pantheon is a "remake" of Everquest. OP did not imply that Pantheon is a "prequel" or "sequel" to Everquest. And quite frankly in all the years I have been here, I have not seen one person say that. You mention "insulting," but could it be that what you claim may be?
Even though you lightly brush this off, I have news for you: Brad literally made Classic EQ (and VG) and Lead VR devs played them. Many of us are HERE because we liked their past work (duh). You better believe there is going to be certain and various inspirations from those mmorpg's in the vision and direction for this new, modern mmorpg. Just how VG had some inspirations from Classic EQ, Pantheon will have some inspirations from Classic EQ and VG - that has been more than obvious in the development of Pantheon (watch the streams). That does not make it a "clone" or a "prequel" or a "sequel" to the storyline or any other absurd claims that some have made.
Syrif said:HemlockReaper said:The only thing I thinks is disconnected, is peoples expectations of pantheon. Pantheon is not EQ, it is not a remake, a sequel, a prequel or any facsimile of EQ. A “spiritual successor” made evolving some of EQ’s Developers with a set of core values is the most Pantheon is to EQ.
Pantheon will stand on its own merit, it will thrive with its own uniqueness. Constantly reminding a creator that current work isn't like their past work is rather insulting in my opinion. Have faith in the unseen professionals bringing back an era of greatness.
And your point is...?
Lol - OP did not say that Pantheon is a "remake" of Everquest. OP did not imply that Pantheon is a "prequel" or "sequel" to Everquest. And quite frankly in all the years I have been here, I have not seen one person say that. You mention "insulting," but could it be that what you claim may be?
Even though you lightly brush this off, I have news for you: Brad literally made Classic EQ (and VG) and lead VR devs played them. Many of us are HERE because we liked their past work (duh). You better believe there is going to be certain and various inspirations from those mmorpg's in the vision and direction for this new, modern mmorpg. Just how VG had some inspirations from Classic EQ, Pantheon will have some inspirations from Classic EQ and VG - that has been more than obvious in the development of Pantheon (watch the streams). That does not make it a "clone" or a "prequel" or a "sequel" to the storyline or any other absurd claims that some have made.
The point is, years of post after post from EQ fanatics comparing a game system, or other aspects of EQ’s to pantheon, generally whining if it’s not the game of yesteryear, and in my opinion stifling any direction that doesn't fit into their nostalgia.
HemlockReaper said:The point is, years of post after post from EQ fanatics comparing a game system, or other aspects of EQ’s to pantheon, generally whining if it’s not the game of yesteryear, and in my opinion stifling any direction that doesn't fit into their nostalgia.
Well, I suppose many of us were “EQ fanatics” at one time as were Brad and VR devs. Also, I don’t think OP was whining - praising the devs’ past successes (literally what OP says) is not whining. I like the successes of Classic EQ and VG. Some inspirations from devs and spiritual succession is a good thing. Obv, Pantheon will be its own game and storyline. Literally no one refutes that.
Anyway, it must be quite a disagreement of opinion, fair enough.
Maybe it is just me, but the only time I want ambient music is when I'm in a village near a tavern or a street performer.
Otherwise, I just want to hear the world around me, the trees rustling in the wind, the river flowing nearby, the wagon wheels or horse hooves of the caravan passing by.
Nekentros said:MauvaisOeil
I’m aware of the midi music thing as evidenced by the distinction I drew about it. So there is no misplaced nostalgia there. I thought I was pretty clear in that I was advocating for an emphasis on "types of instruments" used. Maybe I should have qualified that as folk instruments rather than just "types of instruments".
I’m not sure if you have ever listened to the original uncompressed EQ music, but most of it was originally composed with folk instruments before it was compressed to midi; though there are a couple of instruments that were used that would not be considered folk, one being the piano. What I am advocating for is ambient music composed using the same or similar folk instruments in clean, high fidelity, uncompressed, non-midi form. I hope that makes more sense.
I don't know where you got your informations here, midi music file are purely digitaly done, there is no compression there, it's basically a digital partition you write and read with a digital reader, no one plays it and usually it's quality depends of the sound drivers/readers of the user itself. Perhaps what you heard was the midi file played on a more realistic/detailed reader, but that's all.
