Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Should another player be in control of your appearance?

    • 71 posts
    July 9, 2020 3:49 PM PDT

    I'm just curious what everyones stances are to this question as there seems to be divide in the community in this simple question.


    I for one don't believe another player should be in control in how you are percieved, regardless of it being just armor or race.
    How you look like to yourself should be the same for how you look like to other players, regardless. This is a World after all, am I wrong?

    • 113 posts
    July 9, 2020 4:11 PM PDT

    I agree with you IF there are not obnoxious spider man dye sets and the like running around.

    I think that if the non-thematic dyes seen in other games are not introduced and that only colors consistent with the world lore are allowed in customization, if at all, then there is no need to have a toggle for stripping others appearance. (If I'm understanding your meaning correctly in that is what you're referring to is a game option to turn off custom appearance).

    I'm also more in the camp of against transmogs too though. I like that old school EQ1 feel of knowing at a glance that person has XYZ item and being jealous / motivated to get one.

     

    Hehe at first I thought you were talking about illusions being cast on innocent bystanders and was going to argue that is fun! Especially for newbs going wth? lol.

     

     

    • 2756 posts
    July 9, 2020 4:22 PM PDT

    znushu said:

    I'm just curious what everyones stances are to this question as there seems to be divide in the community in this simple question.

    I for one don't believe another player should be in control in how you are percieved, regardless of it being just armor or race.
    How you look like to yourself should be the same for how you look like to other players, regardless. This is a World after all, am I wrong?

    You're not wrong. Also different players seeing different things is bizarre even in a fantasy world.


    This post was edited by disposalist at July 9, 2020 4:25 PM PDT
    • 287 posts
    July 9, 2020 4:30 PM PDT

    I've heard this issue being referred to as "toggling". Should a person be able to toggle on/off how others appears? I don't see why not. I would like to be able to see everyone with the gear that they are wearing, instead of the gear that they want you to see.

    I don't understand why anyone else should care about whether I toggle off your transmogs. How would you even know? Why would it be any of your business?

    • 2419 posts
    July 9, 2020 4:43 PM PDT

    znushu said:

    I for one don't believe another player should be in control in how you are percieved, regardless of it being just armor or race.
    How you look like to yourself should be the same for how you look like to other players, regardless. This is a World after all, am I wrong?

    In the same vein, I do not believe another player should be in control of how I perceive them.  And like randomrob82 says above, how would you even no that I see you one way or another anyway?  You would need to came up and ask me what I saw when I looked at your character and then actually belive me when I described what I saw (even though I would deliberately lie to your face just to piss you).

    Same goes for names, first and last, titles or any other bits of fluff you think everyone else should be required to see when you just happen to walk across your field of view. 

    Toggles are good.  Put in lots and lots of toggles.

    • 2756 posts
    July 9, 2020 5:07 PM PDT

    randomrob82 said:

    I've heard this issue being referred to as "toggling". Should a person be able to toggle on/off how others appears? I don't see why not. I would like to be able to see everyone with the gear that they are wearing, instead of the gear that they want you to see.

    I don't understand why anyone else should care about whether I toggle off your transmogs. How would you even know? Why would it be any of your business?

    Because how people want to look is usually about how other people see them.

    If you see them as something else, then designing their look is pointless.

    Also, it means half (or more or less, who knows) the population seeing something different to the other half: "Quick stand by the dwarf with the blue helmet, or you'll aggro the monster". "There is no dwarf with a blue helmet, do you mean the one with the red helmet or the one with the blue cap?" etc.

    • 2756 posts
    July 9, 2020 5:08 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    znushu said:

    I for one don't believe another player should be in control in how you are percieved, regardless of it being just armor or race.
    How you look like to yourself should be the same for how you look like to other players, regardless. This is a World after all, am I wrong?

    In the same vein, I do not believe another player should be in control of how I perceive them.  And like randomrob82 says above, how would you even no that I see you one way or another anyway?  You would need to came up and ask me what I saw when I looked at your character and then actually belive me when I described what I saw (even though I would deliberately lie to your face just to piss you).

    Same goes for names, first and last, titles or any other bits of fluff you think everyone else should be required to see when you just happen to walk across your field of view. 

    Toggles are good.  Put in lots and lots of toggles.

    As long as I have a toggle to toggle off your toggle.

    • 1860 posts
    July 9, 2020 5:43 PM PDT

    I'm with Brad in that I think it is important for specific items to have a unique look.

    You should be able to see a player running by, tell what armor they are wearing and know what it took for them to acquire that armor.

    Well informed players shouldn't have to inspect another player. They should know what they are wearing just by looking.

    There are plenty of games with cosmetic/dress up options. This shouldn't be one of them.  There is no place for a player altering how their armor looks.  

    If a player wants to wear some trash gear because they like the look, let them.  There is no need for a toggle.  There is also no need for dyes or armor alterations.  


    This post was edited by philo at July 9, 2020 5:45 PM PDT
    • 2001 posts
    July 9, 2020 5:52 PM PDT

    znushu said:  Should another player be in control of your appearance?


    No other player is going to be in control of your appearance. Your character is not a living being in the real world, where one person could control "how you are perceived" by others.

    YOU get to control what you see on your computer screen. I get to control what I see on mine. And VR gets to control EVERYTHING that either of us receive from the Pantheon game server.

     

    znushu said: How you look like to yourself should be the same for how you look like to other players, regardless. 

    If I write code that makes every character on my screen look like Santa Clause, are you claiming that I am doing some measurable, perceivable harm to you by running it? What about the blue-light filter that I run at night, do I harm you when I play the game with it on? It definitely changes the colors of most things on the screen including armor, hair and skin.

    What about the resolution of my screen. If you get to determine how you appear on my screen, does that include some minimum size that your character must be for me to properly appreciate it? How about the eyeglasses I wear, would you like proof that they are clean and the prescription is still up to date?

     

    I urge you in the strongest terms to really consider what it means if you are truly bothered that thousands of total strangers will not be forced to experience the exact artistic qualities that you wish to imbue to a make-believe character in an imaginary world where we all go to just have fun.

     

    • 1860 posts
    July 9, 2020 6:49 PM PDT

    The thought process of this thread is one that will make pantheon similar to every other game out there.  Cater to the masses, player gratification, let everyone look how they want.  

    This seems like the path we should be trying to avoid...

     

    • 1315 posts
    July 9, 2020 7:07 PM PDT

    Rather than a toggle I would like to see greater control of appearance through viable gear options, customizable crafted gear and or surcoat item slot that looks similar to a short robe over armor that covers most things and can have guild or achievement driven texture layers.

    I am not overly a fan of cosmetic slot though there is some value in sacrificing one item to apply its stats to another items appearance.

    Most of the issues either for or against appearance alterations are due to ugly or immersion breaking models and textures in the game.  Easy solution is just don’t put gaudy or hideous options in (especially not on top end loot).  


    This post was edited by Trasak at July 9, 2020 7:08 PM PDT
    • 71 posts
    July 9, 2020 7:53 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    YOU get to control what you see on your computer screen. I get to control what I see on mine. And VR gets to control EVERYTHING that either of us receive from the Pantheon game server.

    In this very same logic then I should have control over everyones avatar on these forums then, right?
    So, I should be given an option to change lets say your avatar on the forum into something like... Oh i dunno, screenshots of a tinkerbell movie? 
    Instead of just using photoshop and doing it myself, like I did here: 


    The point being:
    Is that your customizations in stuff like your toons appearance to even their outfit isn't about 'control' as you seem to claim.
    It's about giving the player a choice and the freedom in how they wish for their character to appear ingame whether that be with skin color, height, or even armor. 
    So, If I decided that my character was to look short and really chubby in their birthday suit then everyone should be seeing a short chubby toon with no clothing on. 
    Or if I decided to wear a Blue helmet that was in the shape of a Stag Beatle then everyone else should be seeing a toon wearing a Blue Stag Beatle Helmet and not a Red Spartan Helmet. 

    If you just use the Random option in character creation and just wear whatever 24/7 then that's fine, that's entirely up to you. But forcing others to look the way you want them too is the literaly definition of stripping away others freedom of expression and individuality. Which I find... well let's just say: unsettled by such ideals. 

    • 521 posts
    July 9, 2020 7:56 PM PDT

    I’m of the opinion that cosmetic toggles should not exit in pantheon. The items you wear should be what other players see, period.

    • 368 posts
    July 9, 2020 8:50 PM PDT

    I am ok with dyes in so much that you can change the tint to help make some pieces look better together. 

    It shouldnt ever change the base textures or style of a piece though. And I also hope we dont end up with anything neon or remotely neon wardrobe-wise in game. (Dropped, dyed, crafted, pulled from the ground.) 

    Not entirely related, but I think people should also be able to disable any illusions from buffs or anything else. With options for both for everyone and for self.

     

    • 145 posts
    July 9, 2020 10:01 PM PDT
    I think it’s reasonable to allow ppl to have silly costumes and for others to have the option to not view them as well
    • 1273 posts
    July 9, 2020 11:24 PM PDT

    I definitely think that all players should see a player exactly the same (unless there is some magical effect going on or something).  I just really hope I don't see things that don't fit into the world that is created.

    • 2001 posts
    July 10, 2020 1:02 AM PDT

    znushu said:

    In this very same logic then I should have control over everyones avatar on these forums then, right?
    So, I should be given an option to change lets say your avatar on the forum into something like... Oh i dunno, screenshots of a tinkerbell movie? 
    Instead of just using photoshop and doing it myself, like I did here: 


    The point being:
    Is that your customizations in stuff like your toons appearance to even their outfit isn't about 'control' as you seem to claim.
    It's about giving the player a choice and the freedom in how they wish for their character to appear ingame whether that be with skin color, height, or even armor. 
    So, If I decided that my character was to look short and really chubby in their birthday suit then everyone should be seeing a short chubby toon with no clothing on. 
    Or if I decided to wear a Blue helmet that was in the shape of a Stag Beatle then everyone else should be seeing a toon wearing a Blue Stag Beatle Helmet and not a Red Spartan Helmet. 

    If you just use the Random option in character creation and just wear whatever 24/7 then that's fine, that's entirely up to you. But forcing others to look the way you want them too is the literaly definition of stripping away others freedom of expression and individuality. Which I find... well let's just say: unsettled by such ideals. 

    I truly don't understand what you are trying to say in this response at all. If you want to make up silly images and have your computer substitute them for my avatar when you view these forums, then I hope you have fun. It has no effect on me and is entirely none of my concern.

    I guess I should first ask if you actually comprehend that a toggle in my controls only changes what I see on MY screen. You do understand that, right? That nothing I do will change how ANY OTHER player in the thousands of people on your server will see you. If you understand this, then perhaps you can understand that me changing what I see on my computer screen doesn't FORCE you to do anything at all. You won't know what my settings are, and it won't make the slightest change in our interactions if you wind up in a group with me.

    I don't know why you are trying so hard to make yourself feel like a victim here, though you seem to be doing a good job of it. But it's just not true. You can and will have all the "freedom of expression and individuality" that the hardware and software allow. The only effect that the toggle will have is that you won't be able to FORCE me to view your 'expressions of individuality' if I don't want to look at them. Which is a right that you do not have in real life, and haven't yet offered a valid reason why you should have in the game.

    Your freedom of expression does not obligate me to be your audience.

     

    • 839 posts
    July 10, 2020 1:40 AM PDT

    Correct me if I am wrong but if someone (like myself) wants my armour to be known and not cosmetic, all i need to do is not wear cosmetic armour right?  Then there will be no effect if someone toggles or not, i will presumably always be represented by the only set of armour i am wearing.

    It doesnt bother me what others see, but maybe the above thought could be introduced to the discussion.

    • 902 posts
    July 10, 2020 2:08 AM PDT

    If the game restricts the armour shown to reflect the items worn and utilised, then this is the simplest option and everyone sees the same thing. If the game allows costumes colour tinting or some other equipment camouflague, then a toggle should also be introduced to switch from the used view to the costume view and back again.

    Personally I want to be immersed in the game as much as possible and seeing a yellow banana coloured warrior running around a dank and dark dungeon always breaks that. So I would definately want to turn it off when I am adventuring in the wilderness. I would probably turn it back on when in cities just to see what people have done. 

    I think my preference would be the former though, just show what is worn and leave it at that.

    • 2756 posts
    July 10, 2020 2:33 AM PDT

    philo said:

    I'm with Brad in that I think it is important for specific items to have a unique look.

    You should be able to see a player running by, tell what armor they are wearing and know what it took for them to acquire that armor.

    Well informed players shouldn't have to inspect another player. They should know what they are wearing just by looking.

    There are plenty of games with cosmetic/dress up options. This shouldn't be one of them.  There is no place for a player altering how their armor looks.  

    If a player wants to wear some trash gear because they like the look, let them.  There is no need for a toggle.  There is also no need for dyes or armor alterations.  

    You are assuming the worst usage of appearance slots.

    Using gear as appearance items does not have to change itemisation at all and would probably *add* to the amount of items being seen/used, not detract.

    If items are worn solely for stats, you will stick with one until another with great stats comes along. You might even stick with it beyond that because you don't like the look of the next upgrade.

    If items are also used for their look, people will hunt for and use others for that look nevermind the stats. You might go through several hunts for several looks whilst not wanting or needing a stat upgrade.

    You may even find the appearance item you are looking at took much more effort and power to get than the stat item 'underneath'.


    This post was edited by disposalist at July 10, 2020 3:13 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    July 10, 2020 2:36 AM PDT

    Hokanu said:

    Correct me if I am wrong but if someone (like myself) wants my armour to be known and not cosmetic, all i need to do is not wear cosmetic armour right?  Then there will be no effect if someone toggles or not, i will presumably always be represented by the only set of armour i am wearing.

    It doesnt bother me what others see, but maybe the above thought could be introduced to the discussion.

    You're not wrong, but the problem is people controlling others, not themselves. The "I must know what your stats are" people are quite happy for appearance slots to only work for people who like appearance slots, but not happy for true gear to only show for people interested in true gear.

    • 2756 posts
    July 10, 2020 2:40 AM PDT

    philo said:

    The thought process of this thread is one that will make pantheon similar to every other game out there.  Cater to the masses, player gratification, let everyone look how they want.  

    This seems like the path we should be trying to avoid...

    Yeah... no. Pantheon will have a ton of mechanics and features used by other MMOs. Just saying 'modern MMOs have transmog' doesn't make any more sense against this feature than any of those others.

    Appearance slots as VR have suggested is quite different from other modern MMOs. It will be based in real gear, but used for it's appearance, will be appropriate to the class and armor type and will not have cash shop.


    This post was edited by disposalist at July 10, 2020 3:15 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    July 10, 2020 2:50 AM PDT

    chenzeme said:

    If the game restricts the armour shown to reflect the items worn and utilised, then this is the simplest option and everyone sees the same thing. If the game allows costumes colour tinting or some other equipment camouflague, then a toggle should also be introduced to switch from the used view to the costume view and back again.

    Personally I want to be immersed in the game as much as possible and seeing a yellow banana coloured warrior running around a dank and dark dungeon always breaks that. So I would definately want to turn it off when I am adventuring in the wilderness. I would probably turn it back on when in cities just to see what people have done. 

    I think my preference would be the former though, just show what is worn and leave it at that.

    If appearance gear would be ridiculous I would agree and would prefer none at all, not even toggled, but it is not.

    A lot of the resistance to the idea of appearance slots is like not wanting teleports at all because it will mean no one needing to run anywhere.

    Pantheon is not doing teleports that way and, from everything they've said, they will not do appearance slots in the way some assume and disdain either.

    It's like if you ever want to talk about appearance slots you first have to have a disclaimer "Given VR have said gear (including appearance gear) will not be inappropriate and there will never be a cash shop..." to get a sensible discussion going.

    • 2756 posts
    July 10, 2020 3:09 AM PDT

    I genuinely think most of the resistance to appearance slots and the like comes from misunderstanding how it might work in Pantheon. Assuming the worst, like it will be over-the-top, inappropriate stuff leading to a cash shop eventually.  It's not real controversy, it's misunderstanding.

    Either way, the OP's question is not "do you like appearance slots".

    It's very well and carefully worded and when you ask "should other people control your look" the answer is obvious, yet as soon as you talk about appearance slots and a toggle, out come the comments asserting control of someone elses look is fine.

    • 2756 posts
    July 10, 2020 3:10 AM PDT

    Misclicked


    This post was edited by disposalist at July 10, 2020 3:12 AM PDT