Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

need more mirth...

    • 220 posts
    July 8, 2020 6:39 PM PDT

    I get that Pantheon is still a work in progress and that much has yet to be revealed, but from what I have seen up to this point, I can't help but feel as if I’m looking into a world where the last vestiges of mirth have been relegated to the fringe. 

     

    Intentional or not, Everquest nailed it in terms of keeping the mirth alive even in the darkest of places; at least in classic that is.

     

    Just a few of the many things I think contributed to this:

    - The *lighthearted bard-like* melodic ambient music found throughout many of the zones.

    - The exaggerated proportions of many of the classic character models.

    - The goofy waddling animation of the Ogre's and Troll's.

    - The cackling skeleton sounds.

    - The goblin's posture and death animation.

    - The silly wobbling animation while sitting.

    - The misspelled ogre graffiti in various places.

     

    While I don't think it would be appropriate to replicate the items that were simply a byproduct of the technical limitations of the time, I do think VR could do a better job of looking for ways to breathe more life into their game in terms of mirth, because as far as mirth goes, the game just feels cold, battle hardened, almost dead in a way. 


    This post was edited by Nekentros at July 9, 2020 12:07 AM PDT
    • 1247 posts
    July 8, 2020 8:28 PM PDT

    I greatly agree with what you say and this post is very well written. What you say is not only important, it's extremely important. It's essential. Thank you and I truly believe that many of us (especially the vast majority whom do not post on forums) share considerably in what you describe.

    #communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels #worldsnotgames #sticktoyourvision #restoreMMORPG


    This post was edited by Syrif at July 8, 2020 8:36 PM PDT
    • 35 posts
    July 8, 2020 9:17 PM PDT

    I feel like with the tone of the world and the art design in Pantheons particular style having suggestions like yours or ones like it might not be the best way to go. The reasons Everquest had those things was more attributed to design limitations, cost effectiveness and lack of well made tools in regards to MMO game development just to name a few. I feel like Pantheon is definently aiming for a Serious theme, and wacky stuff like what you have listed would be a detriment to that theme and not only that but would be viewed by the general public in a negative light and would therefore hurt the image of the game. 

     

    There are definently other ways to help make your world feel more lived in and increase that sense of wonder but they seem to be sticking to a more serious approach to exploring those themes. They have discussed this issue internally at VR and externally over the years with the community and I have no doubt they are well aware of this issue. For me personally this wont really be high up on my list of issues til I get into the game, since we dont know much about the world.

    • 1247 posts
    July 8, 2020 9:41 PM PDT

    TheGoose said:

    I feel like Pantheon is definently aiming for a Serious theme, and wacky stuff like what you have listed  ...

    Huh? The Classic Trilogy (EQ) that OP mentioned was by far the most serious "game" I have seen. I wouldn't even call it a game; moreso a world, like others of the era. 

    Add: I expect Pantheon to be so as well, so I agree with you there.


    This post was edited by Syrif at July 9, 2020 4:13 AM PDT
    • 902 posts
    July 9, 2020 12:50 AM PDT

    I am sure there will be mirth and merryment around the world. VR have intentially revealed little of the world so that it is a suprise for us when we get into the world for real. They are obviously a tallented bunch and have a good sense of humour, so I have not worries that unexpected light-heartedness will be dotted around for us to uncover and smile at.

    • 2756 posts
    July 9, 2020 1:43 AM PDT

    Wasn't there a killer chicken even back in early PA?

    I'm sure there will be some humour in Pantheon.

    Actually, I think it was 'fitting' for the innovative, but still terrible, frankly, graphics in EQ (relative to, say, movie special effects at the time). I always thought they must have realised how weird and cartoonlike the characters actually looked (due to graphical limitations), so went with a comic vibe so as to, ironically, not seem too ridiculous.

    The troll model especially, for example, was so ugly and nasty looking as to end up, effectively, being 'cute'.

    Yes there was mis-spelled ogre graffiti and other ogre 'cute'ness, but there were also hacked up dwarf bodies all over the place. And it still looked 'silly' because of the graphics style.

    To be honest, the relentless twee-ness of things like the gnomes and their clockwork in EQ, I found a total turn off. Sorry gnome lovers.

    To be fair, I think a lot of the 'cute' stuff in EQ was down to technical limitations. The tinkly zone music? Not easy to make 'serious' compositions with basic midi. Playing an MP3 in the background in those days would probably have crippled the performance of the game.

    I'm quite fine with Pantheon not being quite as silly as Everquest often was, though. Quite happy with them pulling back from 'cute' fantasy. Whimsey is great, but it can detract from a theme that is supposed to be exciting and challenging.

    The OP is right that things like the ogre and gnome models in Pantheon indicate a less comic style, but it seems fully intentional to me and I'm ok with it.

    High fantasy doesn't have to be constantly gritty and dark, but it isn't supposed to be like Borderlands or even Wildstar, either.

    They have chosen to lean toward Lord of the Rings rather then The Hobbit and I'm ok with that. I'm sure there will still be plenty of 'Bilbo' light relief moments, even so.

    • 1247 posts
    July 9, 2020 2:02 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    Wasn't there a killer chicken even back in early PA?

    I'm sure there will be some humour in Pantheon.

    Actually, I think it was 'fitting' for the innovative, but still terrible, frankly, graphics in EQ (relative to, say, movie special effects at the time). I always thought they must have realised how weird and cartoonlike the characters actually looked (due to graphical limitations), so went with a comic vibe so as to, ironically, not seem too ridiculous.

    The troll model especially, for example, was so ugly and nasty looking as to end up, effectively, being 'cute'.

    Yes there was mis-spelled ogre graffiti and other ogre 'cute'ness, but there were also hacked up dwarf bodies all over the place. And it still looked 'silly' because of the graphics style.

    To be honest, the relentless twee-ness of things like the gnomes and their clockwork in EQ, I found a total turn off. Sorry gnome lovers.

    To be fair, I think a lot of the 'cute' stuff in EQ was down to technical limitations. The tinkly zone music? Not easy to make 'serious' compositions with basic midi. Playing an MP3 in the background in those days would probably have crippled the performance of the game.

    I'm quite fine with Pantheon not being quite as silly as Everquest often was, though. Quite happy with them pulling back from 'cute' fantasy. Whimsey is great, but it can detract from a theme that is supposed to be exciting and challenging.

    The OP is right that things like the ogre and gnome models in Pantheon indicate a less comic style, but it seems fully intentional to me and I'm ok with it.

    High fantasy doesn't have to be constantly gritty and dark, but it isn't supposed to be like Borderlands or even Wildstar, either.

    They have chosen to lean toward Lord of the Rings rather then The Hobbit and I'm ok with that. I'm sure there will still be plenty of 'Bilbo' light relief moments, even so.

    I believe what OP is referring to are elements that make it feel like a living, breathing world again. It's funny - much of what you describe like "cartoonlike" and "silly" is what people have widely said about another game. And that other game is called World of Warcraft. Now that was silly, perhaps as much so as latter EQ (which was just a joke imo, ew).

    I'm quite fine with Pantheon not being dull and lifeless, which I do not think it will be because VR are the ones developing it (thank god). 

    • 220 posts
    July 9, 2020 2:52 AM PDT

    chenzeme said:

    I am sure there will be mirth and merriment around the world. 

     

    I sincerely hope so.

    I also hope I wasn't misunderstood. I’m certainly not suggesting that VR make destructive changes such as revamping character models or anything. That would obviously be counterproductive this far into production, but I do think there are things that can be done that would still fit within the aesthetic they have revealed thus far. 

    With the exception of the Halflings, the appearance of the remaining races would suggest that they have a serious nature, which obviously runs counter to the whole mirth and merriment thing. I think this appearance of seriousness is something that can be taken advantage of, more specifically the friction that would arise between those members within any given race whose behavior more closely aligned with that of the Halflings than that of the greater serious whole. Their socially deviant behavior (mirth and merriment) would likely lead to them being social outcasts. Traveling gypsies and bards comes to mind. 

    It would then make sense that in the proximity of the Halflings and social outcasts or the types of creatures they would likely be afiliated with faction wise, you would encounter elements of mirth and merriment. 

    This arrangement would go a long way toward creating a world that not only makes sense, but one that avoids catering to one type of player over another.


    This post was edited by Nekentros at July 9, 2020 3:36 AM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    July 9, 2020 7:47 AM PDT

    Syrif said:

    disposalist said:

    Wasn't there a killer chicken even back in early PA?

    I'm sure there will be some humour in Pantheon.

    Actually, I think it was 'fitting' for the innovative, but still terrible, frankly, graphics in EQ (relative to, say, movie special effects at the time). I always thought they must have realised how weird and cartoonlike the characters actually looked (due to graphical limitations), so went with a comic vibe so as to, ironically, not seem too ridiculous.

    The troll model especially, for example, was so ugly and nasty looking as to end up, effectively, being 'cute'.

    Yes there was mis-spelled ogre graffiti and other ogre 'cute'ness, but there were also hacked up dwarf bodies all over the place. And it still looked 'silly' because of the graphics style.

    To be honest, the relentless twee-ness of things like the gnomes and their clockwork in EQ, I found a total turn off. Sorry gnome lovers.

    To be fair, I think a lot of the 'cute' stuff in EQ was down to technical limitations. The tinkly zone music? Not easy to make 'serious' compositions with basic midi. Playing an MP3 in the background in those days would probably have crippled the performance of the game.

    I'm quite fine with Pantheon not being quite as silly as Everquest often was, though. Quite happy with them pulling back from 'cute' fantasy. Whimsey is great, but it can detract from a theme that is supposed to be exciting and challenging.

    The OP is right that things like the ogre and gnome models in Pantheon indicate a less comic style, but it seems fully intentional to me and I'm ok with it.

    High fantasy doesn't have to be constantly gritty and dark, but it isn't supposed to be like Borderlands or even Wildstar, either.

    They have chosen to lean toward Lord of the Rings rather then The Hobbit and I'm ok with that. I'm sure there will still be plenty of 'Bilbo' light relief moments, even so.

    I believe what OP is referring to are elements that make it feel like a living, breathing world again. It's funny - much of what you describe like "cartoonlike" and "silly" is what people have widely said about another game. And that other game is called World of Warcraft. Now that was silly, perhaps as much so as latter EQ (which was just a joke imo, ew).

    I'm quite fine with Pantheon not being dull and lifeless, which I do not think it will be because VR are the ones developing it (thank god). 

    He was talking about things that inject 'mirth'. Whether or not that makes it feel like a living breathing world or detracts from a sense of that is subjective.

    Being serious and gritty in nature does not mean dull and lifeless. A movie doesn't have to have humour in it to be immersive. Plenty of thriller, horror, action, etc movies manage just fine. A game doesn't *require* humour either, to be somehow 'whole'.

    That said, I'm sure there will be humour in Pantheon and I hope there will be. Unrelenting seriousness can be depressing in something that goes on way longer than a movie, like an MMORPG. I just hope nothing too jarring. Everquest wasn't too bad, most of the time, in that regard. EQ2 however was regularly over-the-top and not in a good way, IMHO. Pandas FFS...

    And, yes, WoW tried way too hard to be funny for the kids. Goblin motorbikes. *sigh*

    I don't want people to get the impression I'm some kind of miserable curmudgeon. I can be whimsical and silly with the rest, but if it's just thrown in without regard for setting it falls flat and is a net negative.

    • 2756 posts
    July 9, 2020 7:49 AM PDT

    Nekentros said:

    chenzeme said:

    I am sure there will be mirth and merriment around the world. 

     

    I sincerely hope so.

    I also hope I wasn't misunderstood. I’m certainly not suggesting that VR make destructive changes such as revamping character models or anything. That would obviously be counterproductive this far into production, but I do think there are things that can be done that would still fit within the aesthetic they have revealed thus far. 

    With the exception of the Halflings, the appearance of the remaining races would suggest that they have a serious nature, which obviously runs counter to the whole mirth and merriment thing. I think this appearance of seriousness is something that can be taken advantage of, more specifically the friction that would arise between those members within any given race whose behavior more closely aligned with that of the Halflings than that of the greater serious whole. Their socially deviant behavior (mirth and merriment) would likely lead to them being social outcasts. Traveling gypsies and bards comes to mind. 

    It would then make sense that in the proximity of the Halflings and social outcasts or the types of creatures they would likely be afiliated with faction wise, you would encounter elements of mirth and merriment. 

    This arrangement would go a long way toward creating a world that not only makes sense, but one that avoids catering to one type of player over another.

    Very true. I would love to see the halfings being mirthful, merry, but perhaps quite cutting and acerbic in their humour regarding less 'friendly' races.

    Hobbits in LOTR were always a little over-the-top for me (especially the way they were portrayed in the films) but halflings in Pantheon could have some edgier humour.

    • 2752 posts
    July 9, 2020 9:51 AM PDT

    If we don't get laughing skeletons and whoop whooping ghouls then what are we even backing this for?

    • 1247 posts
    July 9, 2020 10:12 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    He was talking about things that inject 'mirth'. Whether or not that makes it feel like a living breathing world or detracts from a sense of that is subjective.

    I’m very much aware, thankee. Given OP was talking about Classic EQ, I’d think it’s safe to say OP is for enhancing the immersive, breathing world of Terminus and not detracting from it (OP was referring to the era of EQ that Brad made and VR devs played afterall, so yes it is subjective). Haha

    Anyway, I am in full agreement with OP Classic EQ nailed it


    This post was edited by Syrif at July 9, 2020 10:20 AM PDT
    • 220 posts
    July 9, 2020 12:04 PM PDT

    Hobbits in LOTR were always a little over-the-top for me (especially the way they were portrayed in the films) but halflings in Pantheon could have some edgier humour.

    While I think there is certainly a place for edgy humor in Pantheon, dark-aligned Halfling rogues comes to mind, it's not what I was trying to get at. That's because edgy humor is often infused with negativity towards or disagreement with something when it is used as more of a retort than just pure jollity. 

    What im advocating for is striking a balance between the various dispositions and their associated atmospherics. And yes, that would mean that there would be a place for the LOTR Hobbit type stuff as it would naturally make up a part of a balanced (while appropriately placed) dispersion of these differences throughout the world of Terminus. 

     

     


    This post was edited by Nekentros at July 9, 2020 1:24 PM PDT
    • 1992 posts
    July 9, 2020 6:41 PM PDT

    Nekentros said:

    need more mirth...

     

    I strongly support a salting of mirth in the world. And I have just the answer for you.There's a forum member named StoneFish. Make a couple clones of him for whatever server you plan to play on. You'll have Mirth!

    :D

    • 1273 posts
    July 9, 2020 11:25 PM PDT

    And snaked that KICK!

    • 768 posts
    July 10, 2020 9:56 PM PDT

    I get what you're saying with spicing things up. At this point it seems very important to depict what style of game is being developed. Any out of character elements could have more impact than expected. 

    Mirth within the culture of Terminus could be present for sure. I think in lines of beauty of landscapes, scenery, fauna/flora. 

    If you look at wild nature for example, there is mirth to be found in the juvenile stages of nature but also tranquility or harmony found in natural elements or regions/times of the world.

    This is purely viewing "mirth" from a Terminus standpoint. Especially ancient and enduring entities (whatever their alignments) could have elements of their kind of mirth within the game.

    When it comes down to races. I believe you really have to set the scene correctly here. How long have these races been on Terminus and how stable are their current settlements/situations?

    A lot of mirth in troubled times is to be found at gatherings, taverns and verbal communication. (we tend to think too modern, when we bring up elements of mirth)

    When you investigate how "mirth" was presented in medieval times; have a look at what paintings in musea depicted back in those days. What the value was of festivals, days of worship and celebration.

    Also, consider how "mirth" was displayed during times of war, trial, poverty and discomfort. Spirits are lifted in a more simplistic manner in those times.

    All this is basically a pool of potential for VR to draw from. Without having to reflect about how cartoonism, graffitti, kicking snakes, red-cheecked halflings, etc could be implemented in the game in some fashion. Perhaps a more subtle but still noticeable style could be most effective within Terminus.

    Mirth definitely has it's place within the world of Terminus. And it suspect it will arise at appropriate times (permanent or temporary).

    • 368 posts
    July 10, 2020 10:44 PM PDT

    Towncriers, bards, performers, beggars, thieves, brigands, pirates, performers, jesters... All leaving potential quirky or humerous impressions on the game world. The quirkier sides of a "civilized" society represented dynamically via NPC's. Accompanied by some fine piece of wordsmithing to create some depth to the world. Giving it that lived in feel.

    If the matrix taught us anything, a perfect virtual world cannot exist. Life is a struggle, and a true living experience in a virtual world requires some grit. This is to lend realism to the experience that you are part of the simulation. Including the akward/satrical/darker tones of humor aids in that affect.


    This post was edited by arazons at July 10, 2020 10:48 PM PDT
    • 123 posts
    July 11, 2020 12:29 AM PDT

    One thing I remember about classic EQ was the animations of each race.  Be it the barrel roll of the Dwarfs when jumping or the Troll butt scratch when standing in one spot for a period of time.

     

    I hope Pantheon can bring the world together with subtle animations for each race that sets them apart from other races.

    • 220 posts
    July 11, 2020 12:32 AM PDT

    Ahh yes, the butt scratching. Good times!

     


    This post was edited by Nekentros at July 12, 2020 10:51 PM PDT
    • 122 posts
    July 11, 2020 2:09 AM PDT

    Chogar said:

    One thing I remember about classic EQ was the animations of each race.  Be it the barrel roll of the Dwarfs when jumping or the Troll butt scratch when standing in one spot for a period of time.

     

    I hope Pantheon can bring the world together with subtle animations for each race that sets them apart from other races.

    Completely agree with this.  Variety is the spice of life and it gave EQ1 a lot of flavor.  I liked how the iksar swim animation was different from the others, they looked like crocodiles!  Also, the roundhouse kick that iksar monks used was pretty cool.