In regards to a question asked during the May Developer Roundtable which was "What are you doing to prevent cities from being empty because of players hanging out in their guild hall."
I have a pretty good idea for that to be considered.
Instead of individual guild halls create 1 zone where all guilds go where they can interact with each other.
From there this could go a few different directions
First it could be something like the bazaar in EQ but instead of players, guilds get a small chunk of the zone to operate or a Banner/NPC that represents the guild and provides functionality.
Or instead of guilds working towards an individual progression to gain perks and benefits, it could be server wide where anyone in a guild would benefit from the servers progression. (This would encourage people being in guilds, and also add more of a social aspect to the game because everyone would have to work together to progress the server) This is also my favorite idea.
Or you could create a large zone governed by the players where there are only so many guild castles/halls where all players could vote on which guilds can occupy them for X amount of time. (This would require a fairly deep rule set.) Also My least favorite idea.
But it's some food for thought to avoid guilds being in their own zones and reducing player interaction.
LastObelisk said:In regards to a question asked during the May Developer Roundtable which was "What are you doing to prevent cities from being empty because of players hanging out in their guild hall."
I have a pretty good idea for that to be considered.
Instead of individual guild halls create 1 zone where all guilds go where they can interact with each other.
From there this could go a few different directions
First it could be something like the bazaar in EQ but instead of players, guilds get a small chunk of the zone to operate or a Banner/NPC that represents the guild and provides functionality.
Or instead of guilds working towards an individual progression to gain perks and benefits, it could be server wide where anyone in a guild would benefit from the servers progression. (This would encourage people being in guilds, and also add more of a social aspect to the game because everyone would have to work together to progress the server) This is also my favorite idea.
Or you could create a large zone governed by the players where there are only so many guild castles/halls where all players could vote on which guilds can occupy them for X amount of time. (This would require a fairly deep rule set.) Also My least favorite idea.
But it's some food for thought to avoid guilds being in their own zones and reducing player interaction.
So you are worried that cities will become empty, so your solution is to create one zone where all the people in guilds can hang out? Doesn't that then take them out of the cities?
If you want to keep cities population with players, you need things that players must have, things that need to be routinely replenished, etc, that can only be obtained in a city. There was an old saying "All roads lead to Rome". You can apply that to MMOs with the cities.
LastObelisk said:In regards to a question asked during the May Developer Roundtable which was "What are you doing to prevent cities from being empty because of players hanging out in their guild hall."Don't give them their own private zone as a guild hall. Don't give any guild their own private zone as a guild hall. Private guild communication is handled via chat channels.
If a public design goal is public social interaction, then make guild halls public. And require guilds to maintain a public presence by continuously spending fame, infamy, social currency of some sort in order to maintain their public presence.
The public presence could be a whole bunch of things, but ideally, it would be at least public crafting stations and public fuel vendors.
Optionally, with whatever god/temple, kingdom/political-entity, npc guild, or other similar in-game 'thing' they were allied with, they could also have publicly accessible NPCs of those types.
Personal/Individual housing should probably be instanced because setting aside land/zones for 3000 customers per server is a bit impractical, but a few dozen guild house plots near cities isn't that much of a burden, content-wise.
Vandraad said:So you are worried that cities will become empty, so your solution is to create one zone where all the people in guilds can hang out? Doesn't that then take them out of the cities?
If you want to keep cities population with players, you need things that players must have, things that need to be routinely replenished, etc, that can only be obtained in a city. There was an old saying "All roads lead to Rome". You can apply that to MMOs with the cities.
Exactly. Keep cities populated instead.
#communitymatters #makenightmatteragain #factionsmatter #riskvsreward #deathpenalty #HardRaiding #respectyourguild #HellLevels #worldsnotgames #aradune #restoreMMORPG
This post was in response to a question that was brought up in a stream. I personally don't want guild halls at all and the simplest version of a guild progression mechanic would simply just be a interface to track progression and a NPC located in cities to either do quests for, or turn in materials. I can't think of any game I played where I was excited about a guild hall, it either leads to an empty guild hall or empty cities. I feel like it's a huge waste of resources when instead another raid could be made, or class, etc... I was merely suggesting "if" a guild hall was going to be a thing then make it like a hub for players rather than a place for guilds to separate themselves from other players/guilds. Ultimatly a guild land owership outside of cities would be nice but I don't think it's something VR is planning for and it would probably require too much time and resources not to mention an additional set of problems. The only other reasonable option I can think is to have the guild halls inside of the cities forcing people to have to go through the cities to reach them, but even still I wouldn't make them their own zones.
I think it's important to understand why people want things like guild halls (in general). It's not just for the sake of convenience.
A guild hall is a symbol for the guild that owns it. It's something that is usually very expensive or time-consuming to obtain, that the guild "owns". In many MMORPGs, building/buying and decorating a guild hall is almost as important for the guild as raiding is. This is doubly true when the game has a well-integrated housing system where players are obtaining things via raiding, grouping, and so on that add to the guild hall itself.
Where games have gone wrong is by attaching too many "perks" to guild halls and housing, OR by not putting things in NPC cities that draw players back to them over time. There has to be a balance between letting players have a space that they own, and forcing them to use communal spaces. To date, very few games have got this right - either they allow players to eventually put everything they want in their guild hall, or even if they don't, they just give players no reason to go back to the NPC cities other than a bank or a market.
When it comes to Pantheon we should really be asking two questions.
1) How can NPC cities such as Thronefast, Faerthale, or Syronai's Rest be populated so that they matter to players of all levels throughout the game? Not just as a place to bank or buy items, but for other reasons such as questing, forming groups, and so on?
2) What visible, tangible goals can the game give guilds that they can focus on and take pride in, beyond simply raiding? How can Pantheon do some new things here that other games haven't done, so that there's not as much emphasis being put on something like a guild hall?
I think guilds, over the years, have become too 'important' in many ways. They should just be a social construct. Their rewards are self-evident and self-created.
But then games go giving them perk after perk to differentiate and elevate them. It's like giving the rich more money. It's not needed and creates an 'elite' social class in a game world. Not terribly healthy.
Guild housing, banking, crafting halls, etc, etc.
Bah. Just make the public facilities decent.
Nephele said:... When it comes to Pantheon we should really be asking two questions.1) How can NPC cities such as Thronefast, Faerthale, or Syronai's Rest be populated so that they matter to players of all levels throughout the game? Not just as a place to bank or buy items, but for other reasons such as questing, forming groups, and so on?
2) What visible, tangible goals can the game give guilds that they can focus on and take pride in, beyond simply raiding? How can Pantheon do some new things here that other games haven't done, so that there's not as much emphasis being put on something like a guild hall?
Expanding on each..
1) Provided each game loop requires interaction with an NPC to fulfill, then players must always interact with those NPCs. So, placing them where you want the players to be ensures the players must be there. If you have NPC class guilds by role (healer, tank, dps, cc) and/or traditional things like temples, barracks, thieves guild, mage tower, and you offer progression within these social structures, and tangible in game benefits for contribution, then you have a framework that can be extended from personal actions to guild actions.
Deities and sacrifice also can drive positive emergent behavior, if you're willing to design the appropriate systems.
This means things like.. instead of taking the output of the adventure loop and involving PC or NPC crafters, you can take that same output and apply it to the worship loop. You sacrifice at the temple, you gain tangible rewards, benefits, and stature.
Similarly, for the economic/marketplace loop, you take the output from the harvesting loop, and place your commodities on the commodity market, with tangible discounts and benefits from donation, assistance, or use.
2) Now take any loop and apply it's output to whatever other single NPC, group of NPCs, NPC guild, and finally PC guild is allied with those NPC guilds, and allow players to perform all those same actions to and from the PC guild, with their respective NPCs at their respectve guild hall.
Now the PC guild is merely an extension of all the existing in-game systems, provided they can attract players with similar rewards and benefits.
In a very simple example, let's say a PC guild wants to have a guild hall in game. That's their goal. The milestones required to achieve that goal in that city would depend on the existing NPC entities in that city. Do you have the appropriate faction, favor, fame, infamy, whatever is required with each of those NPC groups, ongoing, to permit them to allow you to have your guild hall there?
I've long been a proponent of 'reward channelling' meaning, whatever I do, whatever I gain, it should be up to me, as a player to donate or utilize those rewards towards my in-game goals. If I find like-minded players, we should all be able to do that, in an ongoing fashion. This means everything. All rewards, from all game loops. All outputs from all game loops can be used to further my personal goals, which may involve helping out my guild of choice, be that PC or NPC.
If the majority of players on a server all join one NPC guild, the overarching plot and automated events for that server should be reflected in that choice.
If it were me, I would also have this type of framework require the use of all output of all loops from all content tiers, to ensure all content is consumed at all levels, ongoing.
Similarly, all guilds should be the current reflection of their current members. If some/many/most/all members leave, the benefits, stature, and in-game benefits or milestones achieved for that guild cease to exist, immediately. In other words, you need to have an active guild with donating members in order to sustain your social presence and/or in-game guild benefits. None of this "I had a guild with 100 people, kicked them all out after we got the guild hall, and now have my own personal guild hall". :)
Guild halls and player housing in general is a valuable path for non combat progression. This does not need to added utility and convenience progression. The progression can be purely cosmetic in nature through increasing options and the ability for guilds and players to place mementos and objects within their guild halls. For the amount of time it takes to develop guild halls players will spend 1000s or more manhours per manhour spend developing solely to be able to decorate their own space.
I would avoid having any form of commerce access in guild halls other than maybe the back end for loading items onto a guild NPC for other players to purchase. I would also make the physical pathway too and from guild halls travel through the main drags of cities to keep the feel of populated cities. Crafting is a tricky subject as it is nice to see people but building up your tools, workspace and material stock should be part of crafting progression in my mind. In that way it would actually make sense for crafting stations to be something you level up within a guild structure. Otherwise you are left with phased crafting buildings where your version is different then everyone else who is in the build with you.
I probably missed that question, but I also missed when did guild halls become a thing in pantheon ? From my memory no housing was planned and neither was instanced housing planned of any sort, outside of future settlements in key frontier settlements that a guild would have to claim and sustain ?
I look at guilds and rallypoints of guildmembers more in the sense of a medieval tournement meets actual guilds of old.
Where you have a house featuring the banner of the guild (or a more general playerguildbanner) above the door. Possibly even some banners outside, highlighting that this is a guildhouse and not a common residence.
I'm ok with a guard or other threshold keeping out undesired visitors.
More in general, the rallypoint in front or alongside the guildhouse would be like an open area with possible npc's (a guildbanker who's only task is the guildbank itself, so no personal or shared banking there) and some interactables (more fluff than functional). Access could be linked to position in the guildrank, but it could work for plain guildtag as wel. So if you're a guildmember you can interact with X in that location. All other players can run in and out but might not have full access to every interactable at the location.
When it comes to crafting..that's a different pickle to me. For me, the game would have more depth if you stick to npc-crafting guilds, so a player guild would not be owning any craftinglocations or related npc's. A city or village instead would have whatever makes the most sense of npc crafting guilds within the description of that populated area. What this does, it allows guilds to pick up and move if they find that the current city isn't big enough for them. (expenses and access to more interactables scale with the city ofc) Aside of this, you still stimulate players to travel to crafting stations and related npc's and meet up at the guild rally point or just at the crafting guild itself. It just allows for more organic sense of where craftingstations are located and why players would be populating those areas in the city. (And why they continue to do so after X time !!)
The playerguildhouse could allow for decorative features and trophy display inside the house itself. Perhaps even hold 1 or several floors above or below, if that makes sense for that guild's achievements and activity (and the identity of that township). I like the idea that a councel could lock the door behind them within a guildhouse setting. A guild's rallypoint would be in lines of an open fire or multiple firepits where guildmembers can meet up. The idea behind meeting in an open area, is to show off the camaraderie for one. You won't have that awekward camera angle issue or blank/error visuals which you might have within a home where you need to adjust your camera each time.
When I think where those guildhouses and their rallypoints might be located, I'm thinking adjacent to a terras of a tavern. As again, it makes the most sense to me. Since we won't have housing in at launch, the residences in near proximity of the taverns could just be placeholders for the time being. Just imagine a tavern, with several guilds stationed around them, with each their open area to gather around. (Especially when you keep in mind, what possible features a tavern in Pantheon might have...) This could work out just fine. Without players really missing the easy access of crafting stations or other ease of life features. It just makes more sense.
MauvaisOeil said:I probably missed that question, but I also missed when did guild halls become a thing in pantheon ? From my memory no housing was planned and neither was instanced housing planned of any sort, outside of future settlements in key frontier settlements that a guild would have to claim and sustain ?
Yea, exactly.
Keep all NPCs in public areas and not in private / guild areas. Create crafting areas with multiple stations of each type and set it up so the first person to start using a station makes it appear as though it is a station for their guild (when they begin to use it, it displays their guild banner and colors). This creates a visual presence for the guild without the anti-social problems instancing brings.
MauvaisOeil said:I probably missed that question, but I also missed when did guild halls become a thing in pantheon ? From my memory no housing was planned and neither was instanced housing planned of any sort, outside of future settlements in key frontier settlements that a guild would have to claim and sustain ?
It has been stated that any type of housing will be a post launch feature. So its definately coming, we just dont know of the when.
-Jaz
Jazhara said:MauvaisOeil said:I probably missed that question, but I also missed when did guild halls become a thing in pantheon ? From my memory no housing was planned and neither was instanced housing planned of any sort, outside of future settlements in key frontier settlements that a guild would have to claim and sustain ?
It has been stated that any type of housing will be a post launch feature. So its definately coming, we just dont know of the when.
-Jaz
That doesn't even say how or what could make it an issue in splitting players so whatever happens it doesn't seem like worth a topic unless I missed recent info on it.
Counterfleche said:... set it up so the first person to start using a station makes it appear as though it is a station for their guild (when they begin to use it, it displays their guild banner and colors). This creates a visual presence for the guild without the anti-social problems instancing brings.
I like this idea. So we're talking about some visual fluff. This sounds like a manageable suggestion. Somewhat similar to how a guild could tag a campspot in other games.
Another thing to note is the "Founders Conclave" for pledges. The mentions from VR had said it would be a seperate area ( like flagging ) that would have more convinence shops, or even more centralized crafting stations etc. So unless they changed their ideas, they already plan to seperate a group of people based on pledges.
IMO they should keep it in the city and not zone it to keep highest potential of player interaction for citylife.
-Jaz
Why do we need guild halls and player housing at all?
skip both and get the game out. in a game where content is king, do we want to stand around in a hall looking at pretty things or do we want to be out socializing and playing and having fun?
The answer to guild halls is not create a separate zone that hides the population from the rest of the world.
Sorry. i am in the boat that guild halls, player housing and MOUNTS should all be scrapped forever. Maybe if the game is still going 5-6 years after release, then think about them.
Counterfleche said: It could be part of a much larger system that allows guilds to display their presence.
Yes. Ok.
Counterfleche said: I'd like to see guilds able to rent market /bazaar / booth / vendor / bar /sign space as well.
If you push players to specific rented npc's (based on your guild unlocking them). You're pulling them away from the general already available npc's and the broader community outside your own guild. I get your intention, but you're actually designing a shift in the location where players will manifest themselves within the game. If you plan on giving those rented npc's an extra bonus and placing them alongside the common npc's. This to keep player populations running into each other. You'll have to think about what extra's those rented npc's would be offering to that guild (guildmember). If you're talking about allowing the rented npc's to sell or buy goods that are not available at the general npc. One could question the need to interact with the previous npc's once you're in a guild. If you shift that interaction, you've actually made a faulty design as some things become absolete when you replace it with rented npc's.
Why not facilitate 1 guildfeature within or near that guildhouse. BUT it does not compete with npc-economy outside the guild. Even guildmembers should still be stimulated to visit the common vendors and such. This communal factor is what keeps different groups (or populations) of players connected to each other. Instead of breaking of into smaller communities with seperated commodities. Currently guilds are viewed as a group of players that want to team up or converse with each other in a frequent fashion. Preferably within the game itself. These aspects can be facilitated in a design that feels like a guild. There is no need for special perks in order to accomplish that. Prestige and reputation are something different, where not every guild is focused on this. Still, it could be something valueable to many guilds. Some kind of (open) housing system could allow for just that. And still there is no need to place in special perks that seperates players. And this is where it could stop. What are you accustomed to have in other games and what is really the core of a guild's necessity? Would you feel less of a guild, because you don't have your own market/booth/vendor? Would you even miss it, if it wasn't in the game at all?
This might be a tricky thing to balance. How do you maintain the value of this? As expansions grow, this rentable content might get outdated, outclassed or just vastly superior compared to general npc's.
Counterfleche said:It could be a money-sink and used for prestige, or go the other way and actually a way to generate revenue. It adds life to the cities and it keeps them from being so static.
True that might be possible. The major remark I would have here; Does it really stimulate a sense of guildmembership and does it really allow for durable npc placement and usage between different player populations at the same location?
Most cities and towns are designed with many unused buildings. Which could be designed to be rented by guilds as a guildhall. Allow them to purchase a banner for the door or front wall. They could even design in different scales, from a small meeting room, to larger hall type. Give it locakable storage space (locked depending on guild status etc).
I would say no to tradeskill equipment being in guild houses, unless the equipment itself is level specific, so maybe allow the rudimentary equipment but not the advanced. So they could dry skins, tan leather, make rivets, chainlinks, thread fabrics, etc. But most likely could not make end products on this equipment.
This would keep the guild coming into the city, as well as doing shopping, banking and such within the city.
I also think there are usually lots of unused buildings in various towns. Make them rentable by guilds. There should be no crafting, banking, or Tavern type functions in a house/guild hall. They are only for show, to display trophy's of kills or status. A player should be able to enter any guild hall just to gawk and marvel, but not interact with trophies.
Flapp said:Why do we need guild halls and player housing at all?
skip both and get the game out. in a game where content is king, do we want to stand around in a hall looking at pretty things or do we want to be out socializing and playing and having fun?
The answer to guild halls is not create a separate zone that hides the population from the rest of the world.
Sorry. i am in the boat that guild halls, player housing and MOUNTS should all be scrapped forever. Maybe if the game is still going 5-6 years after release, then think about them.
I re-watched the 2016 Rogue stream with Cohh recently, and Brad said at that time player housing was going to be post launch. I also recall Joppa saying something similar much more recently but can't find the stream. I think he said it in the same stream about guild infamy? I realize that is a long time ago but I don't think you need to worry about resources being spent on housing at this time.
Mounts are a similar situation where it has been said they were going to be a higher level thing and I believe post launch at this point.
Anyway I agree with you that these should be post launch features and not hold up the release of the game.