Ranarius said:Iksar said:How many "abilities" a group has does not translate to how engaged the player is or the enjoyment one has as an individual player within a group.
It does for me.
I would say that a lot depends on how many opportunities for synergy there are between group members.
Most of us don't want a game where people just mash buttons constantly in the same rotation, and where there is little thought put into which button to push. However, most people also don't like sitting and watching their character auto-attack while they wait many seconds for the right time to push a button. So we get into this situation where we want more abilities but we also want those abilities to matter. I think some of us react to LAS the way we do because it "feels" like we'll have less to do in combat as a result.
If we want the idea of group loadouts to really matter and to affect someone's engagement with their class and their own ability set, then we're going to need something like group ability chains in terms of synergy. If one player does X and another player does Y then I can do Z. That sort of thing. At that point, combat really is about the different combinations of abilities that the group can bring to bear. If there isn't a sufficient level of synergy between members of the group however, then our tactical choices are only about us and the mob - and that's where the LAS starts to really limit us.
Hmm, even in EQ1 I never got the sense that it was all about me and the mob when I was grouped. Everyone had a job and they had to do their job well. Who's going to root what? Who's going to mez what? Who broke that CC?! Get this guy off me! Root broke, get ready! Healer is running out of mana, ranger start healing! That's a few examples ... and that was with a pretty limitted action set.
This does lead me to a few questions. Shaman slow ability, is that an aggro ability or non-aggro? Healing spells same thing? Mez? Just wondering because I would like to know what hot bar they will be on?
EDIT: Also drive by buffs, I would also like to see these buff persist for a druation after you leave a team or raid. It was also awesome leaving a team/raid and being buffed before everyone left one last time. It was also a social thing I would like to see persist.
Joppa listed the shaman abilities specifically that would be on each bar (scroll back a page or two?...if I have time I'll find it and quote it for you).
I believe he also said that when you do a drive by buff or leave a group the buffs will revert to a 20 minute (or so?) timer.
Found it - Page 3 of this thread:
"Shaman Action Abilities: Mantle line (HoT), Hand line (DH), Echo line (group HoT), Hurry the Past, Shackle line (Str/Sta debuff), Animus DoT line, Fang line (Animus DD), Fire DoT line, Water DoT line, Slow line, Tidal Wave, Erosion line (AC debuff), Headwinds
Shaman Utility Abilities: Gate of Forgotten Eras, Grip line (Str/Stam buff), Reptilian line (Poison/Chemical resist buff), Fireclaw line (Fire/Nature resist buff), Skymane line (Melee Haste buff), Interlocking Stones (AC buff), Wisdom buff line, Cleansing Flame, Walk the Ages, Wind Strider (Movement speed buff)"
Nephele said:Most of us don't want a game where people just mash buttons constantly in the same rotation, and where there is little thought put into which button to push. However, most people also don't like sitting and watching their character auto-attack while they wait many seconds for the right time to push a button. So we get into this situation where we want more abilities but we also want those abilities to matter. I think some of us react to LAS the way we do because it "feels" like we'll have less to do in combat as a result.
Actually I think this is the crux of it. Would be interesting to know people's ideals on actions per minute (APM) in order to play to an acceptable level in normal play (i.e. when things are going right, not constant tryhard).
- Many modern MMO seem to be at least 30-40 APM (1.5 sec global cooldown, and need to keep up rotation)
- Original EQ excluding auto-attack ranged from 5 APM (Wizard casting a few mana efficaint nukes) to 30 APM (Bards rotating songs)
Also when things go wrong, a curveball is thrown (disposition) or running peak performance (Raid) what does APM increase to?
- Modern MMO - 30-40 APM, unchanged from normal times but may use cooldowns.
- Original EQ - Many classes increase APM e.g. Enchanter needs to control more mobs, Wizard burns mana to remove a mob. However overall still lower than 30-40 APM and some classes (e.g. pure melee) still very low at maybe 12APM.
Ideally I would like to trend more towards original EQ , but bringing the lower outliers up in APM and actions being more situational/positional rather than rotations.
Gives more time to be social.
Perhaps:
- Going right - 10 - 30 APM dependent on class (one action every 2-6 seconds)
- Going wrong 20 - 40 APM dependent on class
Can we do a poll on this board? cant seem to see an option.
Ranarius said:Joppa listed the shaman abilities specifically that would be on each bar (scroll back a page or two?...if I have time I'll find it and quote it for you).
I believe he also said that when you do a drive by buff or leave a group the buffs will revert to a 20 minute (or so?) timer.
Found it - Page 3 of this thread:
"Shaman Action Abilities: Mantle line (HoT), Hand line (DH), Echo line (group HoT), Hurry the Past, Shackle line (Str/Sta debuff), Animus DoT line, Fang line (Animus DD), Fire DoT line, Water DoT line, Slow line, Tidal Wave, Erosion line (AC debuff), Headwinds
Shaman Utility Abilities: Gate of Forgotten Eras, Grip line (Str/Stam buff), Reptilian line (Poison/Chemical resist buff), Fireclaw line (Fire/Nature resist buff), Skymane line (Melee Haste buff), Interlocking Stones (AC buff), Wisdom buff line, Cleansing Flame, Walk the Ages, Wind Strider (Movement speed buff)"
Classes like Shaman that are heavy utility may have a harder time with so many untility options. Same with Enchanters, Druids and Bards. As for the drive by buff. He was talking about buffing someone outside of your team. Im talking about these buff staying for the drive by duration when you leave a team.
Ranarius said:When you say "harder time" what do you mean? Like...they have too many good things to choose from?
Yes and I get thats the nature of the system they are building. For a Shaman that is playing mostly support role. 6 slots is very limited. I wonder why aggro bar is 8 but support only gets 6? Does VR see Support classes using aggro skills more than support skills?
You can only have meaningful choices if there is an opportunity cost. If you always have everything you actually want and just fill in the remaining slots with junk then that’s not really a choice. Having 12 active abilities you really want in three different categories but only the ability to have 8 prepared is a good thing in my mind. You are forced to prioritize your group role which may mean you leave certain powerful abilities unprepared. Those powerful abilities then need to be covered by another party member who is covering that group role.
This interdependency drives up the importance of group play and the value of having a second character of the same class in the party. The same can easily go for the 6 utility slots where you want more than you have. If you feel like you only have 6 utility power you ever want to use then likely some of your powers need reworked or upgraded (or some nerfed).
I would say the right number of abilities to slots is 2 slots for every 3 abilities with 3 different synergies or focuses. That way you can really only do 2 focuses at once out of the 3 your class can do. Likely one will be your primary class role.
Trasak said:You can only have meaningful choices if there is an opportunity cost. If you always have everything you actually want and just fill in the remaining slots with junk then that’s not really a choice. Having 12 active abilities you really want in three different categories but only the ability to have 8 prepared is a good thing in my mind. You are forced to prioritize your group role which may mean you leave certain powerful abilities unprepared. Those powerful abilities then need to be covered by another party member who is covering that group role.
This interdependency drives up the importance of group play and the value of having a second character of the same class in the party. The same can easily go for the 6 utility slots where you want more than you have. If you feel like you only have 6 utility power you ever want to use then likely some of your powers need reworked or upgraded (or some nerfed).
I would say the right number of abilities to slots is 2 slots for every 3 abilities with 3 different synergies or focuses. That way you can really only do 2 focuses at once out of the 3 your class can do. Likely one will be your primary class role.
I agree, I like when RPGs make you make meaningful choices. I do think there maybe an unbalance between DPS needs and utility. Should a player, playing a support role have as many options as a DPS class? Why 6 slots? I want to play a Bard and if they are like EQ1 Bards (they don’t have to be) 6 slots could be over limited. When I played a Bard, all my hotbar slots were utility. I get I am not seeing the whole picture as I have not played the game. I would like to ask if Joppa would answer. Why only 6 slots? Why not 8 like the aggro bar?
@Nanfoodle
Most of the reactive powers will be aggressive in one form or another. As such they will fall under mitigation/tanking effects, CC effects, Debuff effects or Synergy boosts. You will likely only “NEED” 4 active abilities to fulfill your primary class role, Shamans having Mantle line (HoT), Hand line (DH), Echo line (group HoT), Hurry the Past as their 4 healing abilities for example. How you load out your secondary job will depend on your group makup. Everyone will have some form of DPS to fill in if they don’t need to do any special jobs.
As I understand it the utility abilities will be mostly static buff effects, PvEnvironment effects, and movement/discovery abilities. Nothing that will be used actively in combat unless there is a power removing them deliberately. If group buffs are more like auras when still on your bar then even that may not happen.
For bards I imagine they will have a mix of buff mechanics that are utility powers that perhaps could be instrumental accompaniment in theme and a mix of active CC, damage and debuff powers (pick 2 out of three at any one time) that are thematically songs, chants or shouts. EQ obviously didn’t differentiate between Active, reactive and preemptive abilities but Pantheon will. I would actually make all buffs auras and never have a cast versions to further emphasize the importance of groups.
Trasak said:@Nanfoodle
Most of the reactive powers will be aggressive in one form or another. As such they will fall under mitigation/tanking effects, CC effects, Debuff effects or Synergy boosts. You will likely only “NEED” 4 active abilities to fulfill your primary class role, Shamans having Mantle line (HoT), Hand line (DH), Echo line (group HoT), Hurry the Past as their 4 healing abilities for example. How you load out your secondary job will depend on your group makup. Everyone will have some form of DPS to fill in if they don’t need to do any special jobs.
As I understand it the utility abilities will be mostly static buff effects, PvEnvironment effects, and movement/discovery abilities. Nothing that will be used actively in combat unless there is a power removing them deliberately. If group buffs are more like auras when still on your bar then even that may not happen.
For bards I imagine they will have a mix of buff mechanics that are utility powers that perhaps could be instrumental accompaniment in theme and a mix of active CC, damage and debuff powers (pick 2 out of three at any one time) that are thematically songs, chants or shouts. EQ obviously didn’t differentiate between Active, reactive and preemptive abilities but Pantheon will. I would actually make all buffs auras and never have a cast versions to further emphasize the importance of groups.
Nice thoughts =-) thanks for your reply
Trasak said:@Nanfoodle
Most of the reactive powers will be aggressive in one form or another. As such they will fall under mitigation/tanking effects, CC effects, Debuff effects or Synergy boosts. You will likely only “NEED” 4 active abilities to fulfill your primary class role, Shamans having Mantle line (HoT), Hand line (DH), Echo line (group HoT), Hurry the Past as their 4 healing abilities for example. How you load out your secondary job will depend on your group makup. Everyone will have some form of DPS to fill in if they don’t need to do any special jobs.
As I understand it the utility abilities will be mostly static buff effects, PvEnvironment effects, and movement/discovery abilities. Nothing that will be used actively in combat unless there is a power removing them deliberately. If group buffs are more like auras when still on your bar then even that may not happen.
For bards I imagine they will have a mix of buff mechanics that are utility powers that perhaps could be instrumental accompaniment in theme and a mix of active CC, damage and debuff powers (pick 2 out of three at any one time) that are thematically songs, chants or shouts. EQ obviously didn’t differentiate between Active, reactive and preemptive abilities but Pantheon will. I would actually make all buffs auras and never have a cast versions to further emphasize the importance of groups.
Keep in mind in the Shaman class spotlight Video the Shaman spell called Headwinds was in the utility action bar and is a massive on use spell that alters the state of being of the NPC you choose to use it on. And it has a dramatic effect on some of the shaman spells AND other classes spells/abilities as well. Joppa mentions a summoner can use a stone attack on the npc with headwinds and possibly stun them with the stone attack which that stone attack would normally not do that, but because it has headwinds on it alters the spell. I expect MANY of the other classes to have similar spells in their repertoire that would go on their Utility ability action bar but heavily impact Combat or "action" not every spell/ability going into the utility action bar will be a simple buff.
vjek said:Since you brought it up though, how is healing and buffing an ally, or debuffing a target, in combat, NOT a threat-generating action?
As was just reiterated he did list out the known Shaman spells and label them. Heals and debuffs ARE threat generating and are on your 8 slot. Not sure if that is better or worse from your POV. As to buffs I think because they are toggles and ground targeted and stuff for the most part now, it makes sense for them to not generate hate in the MMO scheme of things. Now from a logical or lore standpoint I would think those buffs should generate hate like a heal does hehe.
Vandraad said:SO just because I load a few extra heal spells I'm suddenly a Restoration Shaman? That my heals will somehow be stronger because of that? Does simply putting more heals on your action bar suddenly make them stronger? Wow, that's amazing if true
Well actually yes because if you watch the Shaman video the heals synergize and grant buffs to eachother.
I realize that saying I'm flummoxed doesn't help anything but jeez I'm confused at the outrage. This must be the most toxic theory crafting I've ever seen and I think the solution is an in game play session dev stream ASAP lol.
All of these assumptions are so dire and dark as if Every encounter in Every place you go will be constant non stop skill swap fest. It's much more likely to be a scenario where you get in to a dungeon a bit, realize that it has a heavy population of XYZ and adjust one time, barring Named and Boss fights. (not talking raids at all because the thread is more about day to day hour to hour it seems like)
Accounting for a lot of dispositions like runners will be common fare. No Druid will drop their snare for another DOT unless someone else in group has a snare for runners... What's the problem? No chanter is dropping their mez to do uber deeps. No Shaman is going full dps with no debuffs or heals unless there is another healer in group. If the group can't work together people need to be kicked.
I'll harken back to vanilla EQ1 as many others have done and I feel is a good comparison and ask you to think of it more in those terms.
Yes you could sit and remem a spell but that was overall fairly rare % wise and unless it was rooted you probably will taunt it off the tank.
Yes you could be in a situation where your group/duo/trio didn't have say a good stun for a healing NPC, but you played with them anyways and made it work.
Most people ran around with a "standard-ish" loadout of their choosing and customized it a couple spells at a time depending on group make up.
I don't see the problem and think that everyone needs to see it in action to realize the devs are not going to make it some constant barrage sub-game of the group stops EVERY pull to swap stuff and talk like some magic/hearth card game.
Lastly, if it turns out to simply not be fun with 8+6 they will probably slowly bump it up over testing. It's always the mantra to start low because if you start at 12+8 and then lower it, it is a nerf and people freak out.
IMO, from what we know. It won’t be much different then EQ1. Different class join the team, you switch spells to synergize with that class. You solo, so you use your solo load out. Your team facing a boss and you get assigned to be backup healer, or off tanking and you switch your load out. This was common in EQ1.
Extremely disappointed in this news.
Now everyone is going to run around with the same cookie cutter loadouts. I been following this game for years, and rarely post, but geez how is it possible to take the worst design decisions from current subpar games.
Its obvious the intent of LAS is to dumb down the game. To say, picking a pre-loadout is more strategy is a joke. Having access to more situational spells on the fly, adds greater depth and strategy to a game.
Been playing MMO's since UO and never heard people complaining about wanting less access to abilities and spells while in combat.
When I played ESO having less access to spells was always a HUGE complaint issue by SO MANY. Tons of great situational spells never used because no space on the hot-bars. This was a HUGE problem for ESO. Why would a game want to emulate that.
What a colossal waste of time putting this into the game. Is having access to spells even a problem worth trying to fix.
Razorbrains said:When I played ESO having less access to spells was always a HUGE complaint issue by SO MANY. Tons of great situational spells never used because no space on the hot-bars. This was a HUGE problem for ESO. Why would a game want to emulate that.
That's ridiculous. The real problem with ESO wasn't the limited hotbar, it was that there were only about 6 or 7 different abilities in the game, with different names and palette swaps for each class. If ESO had gone with an unlimited hotbar it would have only highlighted just how bland and cookie-cutter the whole thing was/is.
Joppa said:To those of you actively against Pantheon's LAS, please read the statement below and answer the following question as succinctly as you can. The responses will be insightful to better understand the underlying perspectives at play here.
The most successful commercial MMORPG of all time (WoW) was designed with LAS in the form of talent-based specializations. As a Mage, I can be a Fire Mage, a Frost Mage or an Arcane Mage. Based on that decision I will have a subset of abilities and gameplay-defining ability effects available to me. Again, the subset is defined not only by discrete abilities unique to that spec (Arcane = Arcane Power, Presence of Mind, etc. while Frost = Cold Snap, Ice Block, etc.), but also specialization-specific modifications and secondary effects added to a host of abilities based on spec (Fire = Master of Elements, Critical Mass, etc. while Frost = Improved Blizzard, Shatter, etc.).
If I am a Fire Mage and I go up against an Elite, Fire Immune target, I cannot alter my spec in combat to deal with that situation. I am forced to revert to sub-optimal abilities that my specialization choice does not support, which in a solo situation will rarely do more than allow me to run away (which according to the current logic, this would be defined as fighting with the UI - because the ability to deal with this Fire Immune target is just a few clicks and a respec away, but I am arbitrarily and artificially denied the ability to do that). It's interesting because you don't hear a lot of people complaining in WoW that you can't have everything that each spec offers available to you at all times. No one complains because that's simply the way the game is designed.
With Pantheon, yes you have fewer abilities overall and fewer slots available to you. This is the tradeoff for having full freedom to alter your loadouts with access to all of your abilities (not spec-defined ones) instead of being limited to the offerings of the pre-determined 3.
Because of WoW's LAS, there is a meaningful difference between a Restoration Shaman and an Enhancement Shaman. But two Restoration Shaman will be essentially identical. In Pantheon, two Shaman in a group do not have to be identical, even if they are both focused on healing. This is a massive win for addressing the longstanding issue of class redundancy in these games.
In light of this simple explanation, drawing very clear lines of continuity between the form of LAS in the most successful MMORPG to date and Pantheon's, you could visit this thread and gather from some posts here that our combat system will ensure Pantheon is the biggest MMO shipwreck the world has ever seen.
So here's the question: please explain, using the information I've provided in the statement above, why you think WoW's LAS works and has led the game to become the gold standard of MMORPG success, but Pantheon's LAS is an inevitable and absurd failure.
Joppa,
First off thanks you for encouraging the on going discussion of the topic. I hope the feedback will continue to help developed the game.
I do not post too often on the forum, but get concerned that many people do not voice their concerns and ideas versus the vocal minority. I'm not criticizing any of these people since they are the ones the promote the discussions.
I will give me view of LAS even though I have never played WOW. To me I would prefer to have a generous LAS system (more skill available than not). I personally think that a strict LAS system is a crutch to create restrictions for a MOB/BOSS fight or even an extire area. I would prefer to have fights that are much more dynamic versus having the traditional recipe fight. The simple example I use is: The BOSS takes good damage from cold base attacks so the group focuses cold, but if too much damage is done the BOSS puts up a cold damage resistance buff (again one simple example). Many people will not agree with me, but I want boss flight that change a bit each time so I have to actually think during combat.
I also liked the ability, as a healer, to cast "lower level" spells to manage my energy. So, having a more open LAS allows for more dynamic and thoughtful flights. "My tank needs an immediate heal but not at "full power" so I cast a lesser version to save some energy."
I think the challenge you have is trying to describe just a part of a system with explaining in the same level of detail the other components. For combat there is the abilities, the equipment (and how it will affect abilities), how mobs will react...
Another example of this challenge is dealing with only one part of a system was coin weight. The comments of coin weight completely lost perspective. The real discussion needed to be directed to the overall encumbrance system for the game with coin weight being a very very small piece of the puzzle.
So...for I support a LAS, but it would not be as restrictive as what is being proposed.
Razorbrains said:Extremely disappointed in this news.
Now everyone is going to run around with the same cookie cutter loadouts. I been following this game for years, and rarely post, but geez how is it possible to take the worst design decisions from current subpar games.
Its obvious the intent of LAS is to dumb down the game. To say, picking a pre-loadout is more strategy is a joke. Having access to more situational spells on the fly, adds greater depth and strategy to a game.
Been playing MMO's since UO and never heard people complaining about wanting less access to abilities and spells while in combat.
When I played ESO having less access to spells was always a HUGE complaint issue by SO MANY. Tons of great situational spells never used because no space on the hot-bars. This was a HUGE problem for ESO. Why would a game want to emulate that.
What a colossal waste of time putting this into the game. Is having access to spells even a problem worth trying to fix.
You do realize all games actually limit in what you can do right? Like for instanced do you really think giving all charcters an open book with all their abilities in it including liong and short cooldowns and than giving them unlimited amount of hotbars to preform at free will is actually a fun game? Well to me it would be i would basically see this the entire time, You pull mob mob gets CC's to death, pull next mob repeat, game over game it dumb down and stupid.
Wow, Rift, AoC, Tera, and every game EVER made in the mmo genre has had a LAS focus somewhere in their game, so stop acting like this is such a terrible decision when every game you've ever played in the mmo genre has had it implemented somewhere in their game.
Razorbrains said:Extremely disappointed in this news.
Now everyone is going to run around with the same cookie cutter loadouts. I been following this game for years, and rarely post, but geez how is it possible to take the worst design decisions from current subpar games.
Its obvious the intent of LAS is to dumb down the game. To say, picking a pre-loadout is more strategy is a joke. Having access to more situational spells on the fly, adds greater depth and strategy to a game.
Been playing MMO's since UO and never heard people complaining about wanting less access to abilities and spells while in combat.
When I played ESO having less access to spells was always a HUGE complaint issue by SO MANY. Tons of great situational spells never used because no space on the hot-bars. This was a HUGE problem for ESO. Why would a game want to emulate that.
What a colossal waste of time putting this into the game. Is having access to spells even a problem worth trying to fix.
How is this different then EQ1? You had limited skills you could use at any one time. Even then Pantheon lets you have more skills on your hotbar than EQ1. This game is not the essence of WoW, its following EQ1's core.
Riahuf22 said:Razorbrains said:Extremely disappointed in this news.
Now everyone is going to run around with the same cookie cutter loadouts. I been following this game for years, and rarely post, but geez how is it possible to take the worst design decisions from current subpar games.
Its obvious the intent of LAS is to dumb down the game. To say, picking a pre-loadout is more strategy is a joke. Having access to more situational spells on the fly, adds greater depth and strategy to a game.
Been playing MMO's since UO and never heard people complaining about wanting less access to abilities and spells while in combat.
When I played ESO having less access to spells was always a HUGE complaint issue by SO MANY. Tons of great situational spells never used because no space on the hot-bars. This was a HUGE problem for ESO. Why would a game want to emulate that.
What a colossal waste of time putting this into the game. Is having access to spells even a problem worth trying to fix.
You do realize all games actually limit in what you can do right? Like for instanced do you really think giving all charcters an open book with all their abilities in it including liong and short cooldowns and than giving them unlimited amount of hotbars to preform at free will is actually a fun game? Well to me it would be i would basically see this the entire time, You pull mob mob gets CC's to death, pull next mob repeat, game over game it dumb down and stupid.
Wow, Rift, AoC, Tera, and every game EVER made in the mmo genre has had a LAS focus somewhere in their game, so stop acting like this is such a terrible decision when every game you've ever played in the mmo genre has had it implemented somewhere in their game.
I dont agree with your premise that games are required to limit choice for the users benefit. They do this not for the users benefit, but because the more choices available makes the game more complex to develop. No matter what these devs are trying to say, them lowering the available actions is them trying to make the game easier not harder to develop.
Since you are taking extremes, do you think it would be better if a game only had 1 spell?
On the other side, if a game had unlimited actions, then the complexity would be steep, me personally I dont know what my limit of spells would be, but I would load onto bars as many as I could handle for ME. Then I would not be limited by the game, but by myself. The number of spells I could situationaly handle would distinguish me from other players refered to as SKILL. Some players would be more skilled than me, others would be less skill.
This game already limits your available actions based on CLASS. Having a great situational spell, but not being able to use it because the game UI stops you, makes the game less fun, certainly not more fun.
But I guess there are checkers players and chess players. This game moves 1 step closer to checkers, eventually it could turn into tic tac toe.
Riahuf22 said:You do realize all games actually limit in what you can do right? Like for instanced do you really think giving all charcters an open book with all their abilities in it including liong and short cooldowns and than giving them unlimited amount of hotbars to preform at free will is actually a fun game? Well to me it would be i would basically see this the entire time, You pull mob mob gets CC's to death, pull next mob repeat, game over game it dumb down and stupid.
In regards to CC comment.
They could have it where the more times a monster is CC'ed it cuts the timers on additional CC's. If they really wanted they could give some mobs various CC immunities to certain types of spells.
What are you suggesting here? Ooops our tank pulled 3 mobs instead of 2, and I didnt put the right CC on my bar, so now we wipe? I guess I will load it when we respawn? Or just blame the tank for pulling 3, and still dont load CC on the bar because you have no room for it because the situation is not common enough to warrant it?
Razorbrains said:This game already limits your available actions based on CLASS. Having a great situational spell, but not being able to use it because the game UI stops you, makes the game less fun, certainly not more fun.
Technically the UI doesnt stop you. You, stop you, by not equipping it.
A reasonable LAS is a direct way to make choices in skill/spell load out matter.
You wont win every fight. You are not supposed to win every fight, by design. And some of those fights you lose will be a result from poor planning on loadouts prior to engagement. However I suspect circumstances where you lose a fight because of poor planning will be rare. Just because you dont have the most optimal loadout for a fight doesnt mean you will automatically lose it.
There are literally dozens of MMO's with very generous limits on skills loud outs already. With that said, what is it about Pantheon that you are interested in, as opposed to any other game out there with those more generous limits? Pantheon has been marketed this way from the beginning.
Razorbrains said:Riahuf22 said:Razorbrains said:Extremely disappointed in this news.
Now everyone is going to run around with the same cookie cutter loadouts. I been following this game for years, and rarely post, but geez how is it possible to take the worst design decisions from current subpar games.
Its obvious the intent of LAS is to dumb down the game. To say, picking a pre-loadout is more strategy is a joke. Having access to more situational spells on the fly, adds greater depth and strategy to a game.
Been playing MMO's since UO and never heard people complaining about wanting less access to abilities and spells while in combat.
When I played ESO having less access to spells was always a HUGE complaint issue by SO MANY. Tons of great situational spells never used because no space on the hot-bars. This was a HUGE problem for ESO. Why would a game want to emulate that.
What a colossal waste of time putting this into the game. Is having access to spells even a problem worth trying to fix.
You do realize all games actually limit in what you can do right? Like for instanced do you really think giving all charcters an open book with all their abilities in it including liong and short cooldowns and than giving them unlimited amount of hotbars to preform at free will is actually a fun game? Well to me it would be i would basically see this the entire time, You pull mob mob gets CC's to death, pull next mob repeat, game over game it dumb down and stupid.
Wow, Rift, AoC, Tera, and every game EVER made in the mmo genre has had a LAS focus somewhere in their game, so stop acting like this is such a terrible decision when every game you've ever played in the mmo genre has had it implemented somewhere in their game.
I dont agree with your premise that games are required to limit choice for the users benefit. They do this not for the users benefit, but because the more choices available makes the game more complex to develop. No matter what these devs are trying to say, them lowering the available actions is them trying to make the game easier not harder to develop.
Since you are taking extremes, do you think it would be better if a game only had 1 spell?
On the other side, if a game had unlimited actions, then the complexity would be steep, me personally I dont know what my limit of spells would be, but I would load onto bars as many as I could handle for ME. Then I would not be limited by the game, but by myself. The number of spells I could situationaly handle would distinguish me from other players refered to as SKILL. Some players would be more skilled than me, others would be less skill.
This game already limits your available actions based on CLASS. Having a great situational spell, but not being able to use it because the game UI stops you, makes the game less fun, certainly not more fun.
But I guess there are checkers players and chess players. This game moves 1 step closer to checkers, eventually it could turn into tic tac toe.
You muscle through it, have one of your casters that isn't you obviously have a root to help you CC them while you get it in control, not everytihng is so paper to pen the why you are trying to make it seem, there's litterally no reaosn to have like 8 nukes on your hotbar, if your a wizard make at least room for one to be a root, there are so many ways by simply looking at the abilities available to us in the spell page to actually deal with such scenarios most of the time, you just have to be willing to have them for oh crap situations, for one i have no idea why your warrior would be pulling if it sounds like you are the Enchanter in this particular scenario, you should be the puller sense you would have a lull spell, just saying.