Forums » The Rogue

Rogue Must haves

    • 323 posts
    August 26, 2018 4:41 AM PDT

    I’d like be effective with dual swords, using stealth to surprise enemies but with a balance between durability/DPS over the cliche dagger/backstab glass cannon.

    • 156 posts
    August 27, 2018 5:01 AM PDT

    Durability is usually the forte of tanks. I don't know if a rogue should be durable along with a series of tricks to escape situations, which in and of itself is a form of survivability. Rogues can use a variety of weapons so you won't be stuck with daggers, though IIRC backstab needs a dagger. Too early to tell if there are competitive damage rotations without backstabing.

    • 323 posts
    August 27, 2018 5:47 AM PDT

    I’m certainly not suggesting rogues be on par with tanks. I’m just not a fan of having one way to play any class, and the dagger setup feels limiting to me. I would gladly trade burst damage (dagger) for more sustained damage (swords) as I have played in other games, but this is just my preference.

    That said I'm pretty sure I saw a tank with healing abilities in one of the streams, although I could've just been drunk.


    This post was edited by HemlockReaper at August 27, 2018 6:08 AM PDT
    • 156 posts
    August 27, 2018 6:06 AM PDT

    Sorry. I didn't mean tank levels of durability, I just meant that usually they are the only tough guys. Rogues usually rely on tricks to avoid damage. I'm sure you could gear towards being more durable if that is what you are aiming for. There will probably be armors that prioritize ac and/or health over dex. As for actual abilities that make a rogue more durable, who knows what they will employ. 

    I wouldn't mind seeing weapon styles that fit certain molds. Let's say for a rogue, daggers are the best damage ( due to backstab or similar abilities ) but swords offer more defensive options by being better at parrying at the cost of some dps. Best of both worlds as players could gear for different options or scenarios.

    • 400 posts
    August 28, 2018 4:04 PM PDT

    Since the EQ rogue was static and stiff and WoW did the best rogue yet.

    1. Stealth 

    2. Backstab

    3. Vanish ( could be like feign death for rogues )

    4. Blind or something similar ( smoke and mirrors or blinding powder )

    5. Sprint ( limited )

    6. The over all feeling of agility


    This post was edited by Bronsun at August 28, 2018 4:33 PM PDT
    • 204 posts
    August 28, 2018 5:17 PM PDT

    Bronsun said:

    Since the EQ rogue was static and stiff and WoW did the best rogue yet.

    While I don't agree WoW had the best template for a Rogue, I do agree one of the defining factors for the class is that ability to engage/disengage combat easily - either via stealth and hiding in shadows, or via agility and dodging/acrobatics. 

    • 204 posts
    August 30, 2018 5:05 AM PDT

    Another thing that would be nice to see the Rogue run with is an interrupt ability (dagger pommel bash or the like) to disrupt mob casting. Low damage and low endurance cost, but effective if deployed at the right time - nice trade off is that the Rogue has to keep some endurance up their sleeve to be able to use it when required.

    • 156 posts
    August 30, 2018 9:06 AM PDT

    Umbra said:

    Another thing that would be nice to see the Rogue run with is an interrupt ability (dagger pommel bash or the like) to disrupt mob casting. Low damage and low endurance cost, but effective if deployed at the right time - nice trade off is that the Rogue has to keep some endurance up their sleeve to be able to use it when required.

    Most melee classes have something similar to this in MMOs. I wouldn't be surprised if it is part of their planned ability list. If not, I agree it should be.

    • 204 posts
    August 31, 2018 7:27 AM PDT

    I haven't seen any snare type abilities in any of the class reveals, so another skill that would be nice to see on the Rogue is a 'cripple' that lowers a mobs movement speed by x% for y time. A nice hamstring maneuver or a good old fashioned kick to the knee.

    • 400 posts
    September 5, 2018 12:30 PM PDT

    Umbra said:

    While I don't agree WoW had the best template for a Rogue, I do agree one of the defining factors for the class is that ability to engage/disengage combat easily - either via stealth and hiding in shadows, or via agility and dodging/acrobatics. 

    The rogue needs to feel like it can get out of situations as easy as it gets into them. I agree that how the engaging and disengaging abilities are implemented will help. I believe all the classes need nice animations, but I really think the rogue, monk and ranger would benefit greatly from extreme and exaggerated animations to give them a more agile and fluid feel during combat. Animations sell personality. Take away the button mashing in WoW, and that rogue was still exceptional with its animations and non combat abilities. It just felt sneaky and that feeling needs to be here in Pantheon. Specially for the rogue.

    Anyway, that is what I'm saying when I talk about the WoW rogue. If any of that makes sense.

    • 75 posts
    December 5, 2018 11:53 AM PST

    Warrior and knights spend years training to become effective with their gear so they can out perform their opponent.

    Casters spend years training their magic to become effective so they can out perform their opponent.

     

    Rogues.......they cheat. We are too busy trying to find a quick way to make coin, so we do not train regularly. To make up for this, we simply cheat.

     

    I would love to see the concept of cheating incorporated in how we fight. Poisons are a good example. having a variety of poisions that do a multitude of behaviors, DPS, attack speed slowing, blindness, confusion, etc. i would love to see them introduced agaisnt opponents in different ways other than just applying to our weapon. Like bombs, quick drop traps, etc.

    As well, the concept of cheating should be integrated throughout all our skills. At least, if viewed from a class other than rogue, their first thought about what we can do should be "Hmm, that seems like cheating or is unfair." Exactly. That is how a rogue survives. Not playing fair.

    Obviously, it should all be balanced for game integrety, but if reviewing the ability, determine if it falls in the category of cheating.

     

    Fester wound, we take some one elses' handy work like a DoT, and we use this skill, it resets the DoT timer back to the first tick or perhaps, doubles the damage for 5 secs. We will get some love from group members for this ability.

    Group sneak with a limited range, that can move the entire group through an area. if they stay huddled close :P

    Rogues make due with what they got, so they have learned to use weapons in creative ways. As mentioned in some earlier comments, having special effects when using different weapons.

    Stealing, having different stealing options could be fun. Money, health, stamina, etc.

    Misdirection. As it appears we will have defensive targets, use this to thrown blame(aggro) on the tank.

    Just a few thoughts of cheating.

    • 247 posts
    December 5, 2018 12:44 PM PST

    Cheat? One does not become the master of shadows by cheating. That takes training and a lot of experience...

    Lock picking takes practice.....otherwise just let the warrior bash it

    Cheat with poisons? Let me call the undertaker now.

     

    Most the tricks of the trade take skill, skill born from training and experience, some teaching your self.


    This post was edited by DracoKalen at December 5, 2018 12:44 PM PST
    • 35 posts
    December 5, 2018 12:50 PM PST

    Good Rogues practice like anyone els and cheating effectively takes even more dedication and practice :) Lockpicking/Pickpocket/Anatomy/Agility/Poison training.. sounds like ven more years of hard practice and training to me

    Ultimately it's about group play game balance and there are a large number of classes to distribute a quite small set of truely useful skills around. My own personal take on this which probably sounds strange but it's irrelevenat to me what they call a skill, just what it does that matters. Dumping aggro is the number one "skill" requirement for a rogue, no point doing lots of damage without being able to dump the aggro it generates.. ask Rangers :).. Nice idea about dumping aggro on someone specific (Tank) that would allow higher DPS from other classes and potentially lower aggro generation from a non optimal tank... you could also grief with it though. Stealing is a thorny issue in a group game, as long as it s a separate loot table and its split between the group then it will be fine otherwise its a barrier to getting a RPUG.

    • 75 posts
    December 5, 2018 12:50 PM PST

    Matter of opinion, but you sound like you are describing an assassin, not a rogue. At least not my interpretation of a rogue. I always visualize them as someone who learned how to survive on the streets, usually at the expense of others. Fighting dirty at every step as they didn't have the luxury of trainers.

    • 35 posts
    December 5, 2018 1:14 PM PST

    Not sure it's opinion as the game is Tank/Healer/DPS/CC + Support of these 4 fundamentals and IMO it sounds like the Rogue is DPS/cc (yes thats small cc) from the skills list, Definitely DPS as it's got aggro dumping. Pretty sure you'll be able to RP you ideal vision of a Rogue but to many a Rogue is an Assassin or whatever anyone else thinks their vision is. Have a look through the Skills list for the Rogue from the class page, tells you what you need to know and at this stage I doubt any major change of direction is possible now. If past experience is valid here then we do know the game will evolve over time (expansions etc)

    • 75 posts
    December 5, 2018 1:29 PM PST

    Sorry Rocket, my response was to Draco's comment. You posted just before my response to his comment.

    • 235 posts
    March 20, 2019 8:11 AM PDT

    Frostilion said:

    I do not care if I am the highest damage dealing class. I want to be useful. I want things that nobody else can do, make poisons, backstab, throwing daggers, shooting darts and attracting attention. I want to jump out of the bushes like "Boo!" and take off running. Leading the orcs to their inevitable demise.

    It would be neat to see a rogue as (from EQ) a puller prospective. Can draw attention by throwing rocks or shooting the small darts. Kind of lead monsters to the group quietly. With Sap or something similar it would definitely be doable.

    It would also be neat to have a disguise ability. I don't know how you would put it in the game though.

     

    I second this opinion. I want to explore, scout, gather information. Rogues, to me, are opportunistic, so it makes sense that they should have a skillset to gain that knowledge. I want to be able to enter an area (level appropriate) and get the lay of the land. DPS is all well and good, but I want to see the class bring a good amount of utility to a group.

     

    Edit: As an opportunist, I want rogues to exploit weaknesses they find to give opportunities to other classes. As an example, you see the mob step the wrong way and that gives you the chance to land an attack that slows their movement or their attack speed, or maybe you distract them and that drops their resistance to a certain school of magic for a time.


    This post was edited by Percipiens at March 20, 2019 8:26 AM PDT
    • 23 posts
    April 27, 2019 7:02 AM PDT

    Mage Hand Rogue trickster

    Can we ever get a rogue with mage hand? if you choose to level it you can get better with it like it can fight along side you with another weapon you give it or hold a shield while you dual wield.. 

    you can control it with some concentration to go off and distract a mob or 2 by doing something so your group can sneak by. It won’t aggro mobs to you since the enemies don’t know whose hand it is, this could be used to help pick pocket from afar even in friendly cities. Or have t cast smoke on an enemy or mez if rogue has it from around a corner with a little LoS maintained so you can get by mobs without them aggroing and chasing you after since the hand disappearred and you’re long gone..

    and obviously for doors, traps, chests..

     

    Pwease I want my mage hand to hold my fishing rod while I battle low level rats and craft while waiting for a nibble.. or DOUBLE FISH! O_O I just blew my own mind

     

    • 3 posts
    August 10, 2019 3:27 AM PDT

    My main in EQ was a rogue (Chanter alt) and prior to the pickpocket nerf (which to be honest wasn't nerf but a bug fix) my friends loved how I could double the cash we got from MOBs.  In those days you could pickpocket MOBs for their cash then after the kill receive the same amount as a drop.

    But my main utility (other then corpse retrevials) was that as a player I'd stealth into areas as memorize the pathing MOBs used then use my bow (which was pretty much useless otherwise) to pull at the most oppertune moment to reduce the size of the pull.

    I also enjoyed just sneaking around exploring and seeing what spawned where.

    So I guess you'd say "scout/puller" for the group so they were rarely surprised by how many of what to expect around the next corner.


    This post was edited by Sakkara at August 10, 2019 3:28 AM PDT
    • 10 posts
    November 6, 2019 3:17 AM PST

    I see myself in much of what was said before. Being useful to a group, having unique abilities that make life easier. Sneaking, scouting, poisoning, ...

    Talking about a "group sneak", I'm not sure how it would fit in a rogue gameplay. That would be more of a bard thing. But the "Length of Rope" skill may help. Suppose you have just wiped in the Black Rose castle and guards have started poping back. Instead of starting from scratch, the rogue sneaks back to a safe spot on the remparts then throws a rope down to his group so that then save quite some time. I hope they don't give up on that feature because of technical difficulites like pathing issues or something.

    The alchemical abilities could be a lot of fun too! As much as I loved my grand master assassin on EQ, the poisons were not as interesting as I would have liked.

    • 10 posts
    November 8, 2019 1:59 PM PST

    As a rogue in EQ I always hate that rangers and others could out DPS us.  Rogue from behind should be the best melee DPS class.  I also loved the sneak/hide that let us drag bodys back if things when south.

    • 1325 posts
    November 8, 2019 3:13 PM PST

    Dewar said:

    As a rogue in EQ I always hate that rangers and others could out DPS us.  Rogue from behind should be the best melee DPS class.  I also loved the sneak/hide that let us drag bodys back if things when south.

    What EQ were you playing?  During EQs prime rangers were the butt of jokes because their dps was so bad.  Rogues were top melee dps...

    • 1627 posts
    November 9, 2019 6:12 AM PST

    philo said:

    Dewar said:

    As a rogue in EQ I always hate that rangers and others could out DPS us.  Rogue from behind should be the best melee DPS class.  I also loved the sneak/hide that let us drag bodys back if things when south.

    What EQ were you playing?  During EQs prime rangers were the butt of jokes because their dps was so bad.  Rogues were top melee dps...

     

    I think rogues began overthrowing rogues in PoP or Luclin with Archery mastery and endless quiver, but not before.

    Also why should rogues be the best melee DPS class if they rely on only one positionnal ability and have plenty of usefull tools like stealh, control and such ? This is just an aged EQ misconception that rogues "should" be the best at what they do.

    • 1325 posts
    November 9, 2019 10:00 AM PST

      Rogues were definitely top melee dps during Luclin and prior.  (At least at the high end).  I guess if we are comparing lower tiered gear there are a lot of variables there.  Many people joked about rangers for years.  It would make sense that they got a damage increase later on once EQ was past its prime.  I wouldn't know about anything after gates of discord.

    Oh I re-read your post mauve.  You typed rogue in one spot when you meant ranger and that changes the meaning but it can be deciphered.

    My thought is it is because of the positional requirement that rogues being top melee dps is ok.  If the mobs back is to a wall or there is any other reason they cant be in that position then their dps suffers.

    That ^ being said, I prefer a more D&D based rogue over an EQ rogue.  More of a trap monkey, stealthy, conniving character.  Similar to the ddo rogue but that isnt the focus in this game.  In Pantheon I think the rogue will be more about doing dps and dragging corpses just like EQ...unfortunately.

    I never said rogues "should" be top dps.  Unsure where that quote came from.


    This post was edited by philo at November 9, 2019 10:02 AM PST
    • 1627 posts
    November 9, 2019 2:22 PM PST

    philo said:

      Rogues were definitely top melee dps during Luclin and prior.  (At least at the high end).  I guess if we are comparing lower tiered gear there are a lot of variables there.  Many people joked about rangers for years.  It would make sense that they got a damage increase later on once EQ was past its prime.  I wouldn't know about anything after gates of discord.

    Oh I re-read your post mauve.  You typed rogue in one spot when you meant ranger and that changes the meaning but it can be deciphered.

    My thought is it is because of the positional requirement that rogues being top melee dps is ok.  If the mobs back is to a wall or there is any other reason they cant be in that position then their dps suffers.

    That ^ being said, I prefer a more D&D based rogue over an EQ rogue.  More of a trap monkey, stealthy, conniving character.  Similar to the ddo rogue but that isnt the focus in this game.  In Pantheon I think the rogue will be more about doing dps and dragging corpses just like EQ...unfortunately.

    I never said rogues "should" be top dps.  Unsure where that quote came from.

     

    Absolutely, I completely messed up. I think AM3 + EQ with acrylia elemental arrows allowed rangers to have a nice and adaptative niche here, I remember people doing more in BoT exp groups with a single arrow than me with a dual stab.