Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Issues with acclimation.

    • 16 posts
    May 6, 2020 5:37 PM PDT

    I'm having issues with the acclimation system because I feel it puts unnecessary pressure on the healing classes. I really want to roll a healer, but I'm having second thoughts. Issues I'm having is that healing is going to be difficult enough, which I dont mind, but having to worry about who's not acclimated in the group may be a little to much. Hopefully I'm wrong and reading to much into it, but just a thought.

     


    This post was edited by Motive7 at May 6, 2020 5:38 PM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    May 6, 2020 6:20 PM PDT

    If you're worried about who isn't acclimated to a given zone/area, when forming up the group you for a specific zone that has a climate, you make sure everyone is acclimated before you leave.  If one person isn't, find someone else.

    My issue with the acclimation is the degree at which your acclimatization diminishes over time.  I'd hate to see it be some daily grind garbage just to keep them at a point where you aren't just murdered going into a zone.

    • 220 posts
    May 6, 2020 7:06 PM PDT

    dont remind me...i dread logging in just to complete daily grind then get burn out by it and log off....

    • 1281 posts
    May 6, 2020 7:19 PM PDT

    Right now, we don't know how much damage lack of acclimation will cause characters. Considering it's basically a permanent debuff, I can't imagine it's going to be a huge amount each tick.

    On top of that, it really doesn't change anything because as a healer in a normal situation you could have a group member be really weak. You just learn on the fly who you have to pay more attention to.

    For me as a healer, I prefer healing and would rather be able to focus just on that rather than having to melee as you had to do in VG as a Cleric.


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at May 6, 2020 7:20 PM PDT
    • 287 posts
    May 6, 2020 8:01 PM PDT

    isn't there going to be a tradeskill that will allow for making glyphs? If so, it doesn't sounds like this will be something that will be grindy, and if done right would be a very cool system. Sounds like the way it might be implemented is that if you keep a glyph on you, then you might simply keep those stats until you replace it, and then there would be som degridation of the glyph over time. This will be a fine line to walk as you don't want glyphs to be trivial, but you don't want them to be so sparse that they are too hard to get simply to level in a certain area. As with every other system in any MMO, it is how it is implemented that matters. What we know so far has me very excited about it.

    • 1860 posts
    May 6, 2020 9:47 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    Right now, we don't know how much damage lack of acclimation will cause characters. Considering it's basically a permanent debuff, I can't imagine it's going to be a huge amount each tick.

    We have seen how much damage the frigid climate does to an unacclimatted character in a couple streams where Cohh runs across that bridge.  It is substantial damage.  So much so that it acts as a keying mechanism where you basically cant pass through without enough acclimation.  You just die in 30 seconds.

    Its one of those things where if a player is worried about healing then maybe playing a healer isnt for them?


    This post was edited by philo at May 6, 2020 9:48 PM PDT
    • 768 posts
    May 6, 2020 10:39 PM PDT

    I see getting familiar with acclimation as a gradual process. From a solo aspect this means, how does my character react in these conditions? 

    From there on, you can try to adapt to the challenge of the environment. 

    Then you have two options, you can group up and try to advance before being well equipped and see how far it gets you. Or each player can equip themselves as best as possible. 

    The first option is pretty obvious, either you can powerhouse through or you'll fail to meet the challenges and you'll have to return to safer areas. 

    The second options leans towards preparation and actually advancing, gradually, with your group as best as possible. If at some point you encounter that a player is getting "stressed" more than others in the group, the groupmembers can try to mitigate and support that player. This in order to keep on advancing. Further along this path, even this support could become a factor that it prevents proper progression and that's where the group as whole could call it. Again several options here; 1) they replace the player and move on, harsh but honest. 2) They camp and build mitigation doing so. 3) Return to easier terrain where they try to grind for better glyphs or resources leading to better glyphs. 4) The "weakest" player returns to the guild, broker, local shop, crafter to get themselves better equipped. (...might be other options)

    In direct reply to the OP. If you are worried as a healer that it will too much for you, ask yourself: Am I well enough prepared for this challenge? Are the people that surround me equally well prepared? Or do I accept the truth that I am 'dragging/powering' another player and as a consequence I will find it difficult to heal?

    Acclimation regions, for me are no healerchecks. They are regions that require gradual adaptation by all players trespassing these areas or are willing to accept the consequences if they don't. Each class and player will experience climates. It's like when it's a rainstorm outside and you're going outside wondering: "Well, I hope my friend has a spare umbrella for me, before I get soaked in this rain." Or other way around; "I better bring an extra umbrella, in case I meet someone who hasn't got one." 

    There will be regions where healers need to be focussed more than others. But that might be more as an awareness things as a whole.  If someone gets struck by a flaming lava boulder, you'll patch them up. If the environment pulls everyone's hp down at the same time. There might be other bells that need to go off in the group's head.


    This post was edited by Barin999 at May 6, 2020 10:39 PM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    May 7, 2020 2:10 AM PDT

    There is no certitude that extreme climates will lead to simply be a nasty dot that kills you if you don't have enough score (Agony rings a bell ?), perhaps some stage will be damage but other can be debuffs and weaknesses severely hindering the ability to perform any group role without having to be "damage".

    • 888 posts
    May 7, 2020 2:23 AM PDT

    I don't think that the burdeon will be on healers.  I fear the acclimation system will end up being content gating and require more time be spent managing inventories and farming glyphs.  People who are undergeared won't be burdeoning the healer because they won't be allowed on the team.  I think VR is really missing an amazing oppurtunity with the acclimation system.  Instead of using it to be a 'in order to participate in content in these areas, here is how you will need to adjust your tactics', it's a 'in order to participate in contentin in these areas, here is a list of gear you need to grind for first'.  Sure, since there are different climates and we can't max out for all, this means we need to make trade-offs, but this wil also mean even more time spent grinding more glyphs / managing inventory and less time actually playing. 

     

    What would be fun would be a system where extreme weather caused you to adjust your tactics (and that weather would come and go, forcing on-the-fly adjustments).  For example, the high wind sheer could reduce the range of ranged weapons (all the way to point blank for the worst case senario), so if you're in a fight and the wind kicks up, you have to get close or switch to melee.  Other examples could be more static and still be made fun.  For example, a zone with extreme heat that requires you to remove most clothing / armor and reduces your stamina and weight carrying capacity.  That would force you to adjust tactics and gear, but not in a 'you must collect X of these glyphs before you can do this content' way.

    • 2756 posts
    May 7, 2020 2:38 AM PDT

    philo said:

    bigdogchris said:

    Right now, we don't know how much damage lack of acclimation will cause characters. Considering it's basically a permanent debuff, I can't imagine it's going to be a huge amount each tick.

    We have seen how much damage the frigid climate does to an unacclimatted character in a couple streams where Cohh runs across that bridge.  It is substantial damage.  So much so that it acts as a keying mechanism where you basically cant pass through without enough acclimation.  You just die in 30 seconds.

    Its one of those things where if a player is worried about healing then maybe playing a healer isnt for them?

    The bridge in the stream was an extreme windsheer and cold combo if I recall correctly. Not really a good example of how acclimation 'works' any more than combat with no weapons or armor would seem tough.

    They did make clear there were several levels/degrees of climate and have, a few newsletters ago, described the kind of effects that climate have on unprepared travellers which, as others have pointed out, range from very mild debuffs to actual damage if you proceed. There was no quick death unless you ignore the very obvious pre-cursors and push on into a seriously adverse climate (as Cohh did).

    I suppose there may be areas where you *can* push through a temporary, dangerous climate. That would be cool! But people will work that out and let others know, no doubt. No different to working out whether a particular fall/climb is dangerous or a particular encounter is too tough.

    I don't see how climates are anything to ruin being a healer any more than enemies that debuff you or wandering into areas with higher level encounters or unexpected abilities. You hopefully cope until you realise you are attempting something too hard and you back away to content you can cope with. End of.

    Climate and acclimation is one more complication for everyone to deal with. *Everything* could be seen as effecting the healer more than anyone else, as, ultimately, it's physical damage that defeats parties, *but* I'm sure other classes will be able to help with acclimation effects/buffs and it's the responsibility of every character to prepare for the environment they intend to adventure in.

    Bring it on! Any interesting/meaningful mechanic that increases challenge and tactical considerations is good with me.

    • 2756 posts
    May 7, 2020 2:47 AM PDT

    Counterfleche said:

    I don't think that the burdeon will be on healers.  I fear the acclimation system will end up being content gating and require more time be spent managing inventories and farming glyphs.  People who are undergeared won't be burdeoning the healer because they won't be allowed on the team.  I think VR is really missing an amazing oppurtunity with the acclimation system.  Instead of using it to be a 'in order to participate in content in these areas, here is how you will need to adjust your tactics', it's a 'in order to participate in contentin in these areas, here is a list of gear you need to grind for first'.  Sure, since there are different climates and we can't max out for all, this means we need to make trade-offs, but this wil also mean even more time spent grinding more glyphs / managing inventory and less time actually playing. 

    What would be fun would be a system where extreme weather caused you to adjust your tactics (and that weather would come and go, forcing on-the-fly adjustments).  For example, the high wind sheer could reduce the range of ranged weapons (all the way to point blank for the worst case senario), so if you're in a fight and the wind kicks up, you have to get close or switch to melee.  Other examples could be more static and still be made fun.  For example, a zone with extreme heat that requires you to remove most clothing / armor and reduces your stamina and weight carrying capacity.  That would force you to adjust tactics and gear, but not in a 'you must collect X of these glyphs before you can do this content' way.

    I agree with your assessment to some extent. Acclimation is surely a 'keying' system, *but* much more 'natural' (usually literally) and less arbitrary and binary.

    I agree with your ideas with what would be fun, but I don't think we can assume it won't be like that.

    I think even from what we've currently know about levels of climate behaving like debuffs and about self-acclimation, etc that there will be a 'tactical' approach possible to overcoming climates.

    Sure, there will be some grind to obtain glyphs, but that's no different than any 'grind' to achieve the gear and the level to take on the content you want to. There will also be opportunity to do just as you like, with ranged attacks and line-of-sight being limited by windsheer or blizzard or whatever, and, yeah, heat climate might need you to take off gear in order to self-acclimate, but perhaps put it back on later.

    Those with less glyphs will have to load their action bars with short-term protections and buffs and fight differently because of the climate debuffs (eg. must burn enemies down quickly in hot climate, else an 'exhaustion' buff will drain stamina levels before the fight is done).

    The acclimation system has great potential and we just don't know how it will work out... yet!

    • 16 posts
    May 7, 2020 2:59 AM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    Right now, we don't know how much damage lack of acclimation will cause characters. Considering it's basically a permanent debuff, I can't imagine it's going to be a huge amount each tick.

    On top of that, it really doesn't change anything because as a healer in a normal situation you could have a group member be really weak. You just learn on the fly who you have to pay more attention to.

    For me as a healer, I prefer healing and would rather be able to focus just on that rather than having to melee as you had to do in VG as a Cleric.

    • 16 posts
    May 7, 2020 3:01 AM PDT

    My point is that it kind of does really matter, in your example I would be worrying about the weak player and the player that isn't acclimated, which in turn puts more unnecessary pressure to heal the group. Just trying to play all scenarios in my head so we can get a better feel for the whole system.

    • 16 posts
    May 7, 2020 3:10 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    philo said:

    bigdogchris said:

    Right now, we don't know how much damage lack of acclimation will cause characters. Considering it's basically a permanent debuff, I can't imagine it's going to be a huge amount each tick.

    We have seen how much damage the frigid climate does to an unacclimatted character in a couple streams where Cohh runs across that bridge.  It is substantial damage.  So much so that it acts as a keying mechanism where you basically cant pass through without enough acclimation.  You just die in 30 seconds.

    Its one of those things where if a player is worried about healing then maybe playing a healer isnt for them?

    The bridge in the stream was an extreme windsheer and cold combo if I recall correctly. Not really a good example of how acclimation 'works' any more than combat with no weapons or armor would seem tough.

    They did make clear there were several levels/degrees of climate and have, a few newsletters ago, described the kind of effects that climate have on unprepared travellers which, as others have pointed out, range from very mild debuffs to actual damage if you proceed. There was no quick death unless you ignore the very obvious pre-cursors and push on into a seriously adverse climate (as Cohh did).

    I suppose there may be areas where you *can* push through a temporary, dangerous climate. That would be cool! But people will work that out and let others know, no doubt. No different to working out whether a particular fall/climb is dangerous or a particular encounter is too tough.

    I don't see how climates are anything to ruin being a healer any more than enemies that debuff you or wandering into areas with higher level encounters or unexpected abilities. You hopefully cope until you realise you are attempting something too hard and you back away to content you can cope with. End of.

    Climate and acclimation is one more complication for everyone to deal with. *Everything* could be seen as effecting the healer more than anyone else, as, ultimately, it's physical damage that defeats parties, *but* I'm sure other classes will be able to help with acclimation effects/buffs and it's the responsibility of every character to prepare for the environment they intend to adventure in.

    Bring it on! Any interesting/meaningful mechanic that increases challenge and tactical considerations is good with me.

    • 16 posts
    May 7, 2020 3:25 AM PDT

    I fully understand what you are trying to say. But this system tends to favor only grouping up with who you know. It would discourage people rolling healers for it may be a little to much healing pugs and such. We aren't always going to be able to play with a group that we know. I fear the healing class is going to be really underrepresented in this system. I am all for difficulty especially for healing a group, but when you think about it, the acclimation system is already putting a layer on top of what your expections are as a healer.

    • 16 posts
    May 7, 2020 3:32 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    If you're worried about who isn't acclimated to a given zone/area, when forming up the group you for a specific zone that has a climate, you make sure everyone is acclimated before you leave.  If one person isn't, find someone else.

    My issue with the acclimation is the degree at which your acclimatization diminishes over time.  I'd hate to see it be some daily grind garbage just to keep them at a point where you aren't just murdered going into a zone.

    • 16 posts
    May 7, 2020 3:35 AM PDT

    This is essentially a gear score check system which I absolutely despise and was hoping wouldn't make it into the game. I hope it isn't this way for the last thing I want is for someone to judge group members on there acclimation score.

    • 724 posts
    May 7, 2020 5:50 AM PDT
    It will all be fine. It's a game that is being built with love and attention. If something is 'off' there is plenty of time to tweak it and plenty of ways to modify your own play style.
    Don't hope for a static world that you can get comfortable in, hope for a dynamic world were you are challenged and allowed to adapt.
    Embrace the chaos and dull your expectations for stability and peace. Become the stoic, smile at the pessimist in the mirror.
    • 1860 posts
    May 7, 2020 8:55 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    philo said:

    bigdogchris said:

    Right now, we don't know how much damage lack of acclimation will cause characters. Considering it's basically a permanent debuff, I can't imagine it's going to be a huge amount each tick.

    We have seen how much damage the frigid climate does to an unacclimatted character in a couple streams where Cohh runs across that bridge.  It is substantial damage.  So much so that it acts as a keying mechanism where you basically cant pass through without enough acclimation.  You just die in 30 seconds.

    Its one of those things where if a player is worried about healing then maybe playing a healer isnt for them?

    The bridge in the stream was an extreme windsheer and cold combo if I recall correctly. Not really a good example of how acclimation 'works' any more than combat with no weapons or armor would seem tough.

    They did make clear there were several levels/degrees of climate and have, a few newsletters ago, described the kind of effects that climate have on unprepared travellers which, as others have pointed out, range from very mild debuffs to actual damage if you proceed. There was no quick death unless you ignore the very obvious pre-cursors and push on into a seriously adverse climate (as Cohh did).

    I suppose there may be areas where you *can* push through a temporary, dangerous climate. That would be cool! But people will work that out and let others know, no doubt. No different to working out whether a particular fall/climb is dangerous or a particular encounter is too tough.

    I'm not sure why you think that wasn't a good example of how acclimation works...we saw him enter the area with 0 acclimation/glyphs and take massive damage and then enter it being fully acclimated.  The windshear was the pushback from my understanding, not the frigid climate.  I believe that is what was doing the damage.

    I think everyone understands there are different atmosphere levels.  Yes, of course the massive damage was in a higher tier atmosphere area and the lower tier areas we have seen don't do as much damage.  

    It's not that " there may be areas where you *can* push through a temporary, dangerous climate."  We have seen it in a stream...there will be. 

    I'm not sure what you are getting at dispo?  I assume you have seen all the streams?  Maybe not?

    • 1273 posts
    May 7, 2020 9:15 AM PDT

    I'm not understanding the arguments about gear check systems or the "farm this before you can go there" arguments.  That's what character development games ARE.  Every single thing you do in the game is a level check, or a gear check, or a "did you finish this task first" check.  If you want to do a level 20 dungeon you better be ready to face level 20 mobs.  If you want to go raid a dragon you better be equipped in the right way to fight that dragon.  If you want to go to a zone that is freezing cold you better wear warm clothes, etc.

    I thought the whole point of develping your character is to "unlock" new content.  If you're not willing to develop the character then I'm not sure what to tell ya.  The arguments are a little confusing.

    • 1860 posts
    May 7, 2020 9:44 AM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    I'm not understanding the arguments about gear check systems or the "farm this before you can go there" arguments.  That's what character development games ARE.  Every single thing you do in the game is a level check, or a gear check, or a "did you finish this task first" check.  If you want to do a level 20 dungeon you better be ready to face level 20 mobs.  If you want to go raid a dragon you better be equipped in the right way to fight that dragon.  If you want to go to a zone that is freezing cold you better wear warm clothes, etc.

    I thought the whole point of develping your character is to "unlock" new content.  If you're not willing to develop the character then I'm not sure what to tell ya.  The arguments are a little confusing.

    Lvl is just more accepted as the required "check".  Some people have had negative experiences with gear checks or key checks or resist checks because of the way they have been implemented in other games.  

    I don't think people should go in with the mindset that Pantheon will be any different as far as that is concerned.  It absolutely won't be.  They are focusing on horizontal progression for a number of a reasons...with that comes other type of "checks" other than purely level.


    This post was edited by philo at May 7, 2020 9:47 AM PDT
    • 16 posts
    May 7, 2020 9:52 AM PDT
    Player is greater than gear. Bring the player not the gear.
    • 1860 posts
    May 7, 2020 10:02 AM PDT

    Motive7 said: Player is greater than gear. Bring the player not the gear.

    That's nice in theory but that's not how stepping stone encounters are tuned.  Many times encounters are made so you need the gear from the previous tier in order to advance to the next tier of content.  Developers don't want players skipping over tiers of content.  (granted that is for difficult, current expansion type of tiered content...if you are doing mid range stuff then ya, take whoever.)


    This post was edited by philo at May 7, 2020 10:03 AM PDT
    • 2138 posts
    May 7, 2020 10:17 AM PDT

    And what of the group that is not fully acclimated or partially acclimated that goes in, and succeeds? Wjhat of the group that tries and prevails with no pre-conceived notions? what is to be said of them? what is that group to say, to those that are better geared and failed and now dare not venture and turn that group down for not being as acclimated as they should? does the group tell them to calm down and try? or just walk away quietly, anmd go in again with their old friends, and prevail as they did.

    • 168 posts
    May 7, 2020 10:31 AM PDT

    Okay sooooooo,

    Where is everyone getting this notion that healers are the only class that can compensate for lack of acclimation? ... I mean things like the lighting climate, all the acclimation does, as mentioned so far, is make you take less damage from the bolt if struck, just dodge it!  They have also said that there will be a multitude of effects placed on the character based on the tiers of climate vs your tier of acclimation and duration inside that climate.  I cannot see something like an extreme gravity atmosphere dealing character any damage directly, only slowing them down making them take more falling damage, maybe in the worst condition forcing them prone and can only crawl around and cannot fight, possibly breaking concentration on spells and such.  I'm sure they are going to make all classes have some way to assist their groups in certain climates almost making someone who can assist with that climate (not limited to only a single class) a manditory for that climate.  damage is just a very very small component of the negatives that can be applied with the climate system.

    Just trust that the team designing these systems know they will be playing in them.  Also, that many of them likely play healers as well and, just like us, do not want to be the sole strained class responsible for group members' lackings.

    There are so many opportunities for group assists (especially with bard songs of warmth and such :) ).  They clearly stated that acclimation can be aquired from natural acclimation (just chililn in the climate), glyphs (rare drops off random mobs or boss mobs and such), items (some equipment could give an acclimation bonus to certain climates, i.e. a torch could help in a frigid climate), and possible spells or skills (like a shield of fire might help twart the cold, healing waters might help severeness of hot climate, poison resist buff might help with toxic environment, etc)

    So much can be done and i'm sure the team just doesn't want to spoil it all for us and not leave anything for discovery.  

    @VR - please dont feed the animals, please make us forage our own knowledge in-game  :)


    This post was edited by Kargen at May 7, 2020 10:34 AM PDT