As long as there is a meaning or reward involved. i.e. open a secret door in a dungeon or unlock a chest for a quest item. Then yea, I could get behind that.
But if it's just a mini game puzzle to play with no correlation to the actual game, then no.
Type of puzzles: Maybe a group oriented mechanical type puzzle or a quick lore type puzzle.
Kilsin said:Puzzles - Do you like solving in-game puzzles and if so, what types of puzzles do you like the best or consider the most enjoyable / challenging? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
Depends on how "show stopping" and "complex" they are. If they stop me from progressing and are too difficult, no.
This is one area I excel in and I absolutely love them. I love the challenge of them, and they are a great key to be used to get to secret areas or even treasures. I also enjoy them as a way to unlock portions of a dungeon or area that I'm in, in order to progress. For me it adds a whole other layer of involvement in the game I'm playing. I enjoyed the jumping puzzles in GW2 and while they didn't offer much aside from a vista or something, they were fun, and I enjoyed finding them and figuring them out. I also enjoy riddles and word games as another means of getting passed areas or opening up treasures and such. I think puzzles in a game are a good thing and just bring something to a game...that I don't really know how to describe. While some games add things just for the sake of slowness and tedium, and others are just so fast-paced, just for the sake of being fast and streamline, a puzzle not only adds a meaningful slow-down, but they add a cognitive challenge into the mix that isn't just purely strategy-based.
Even if a puzzle didn’t add treasure or anything like that, even if you got to see a piece of lore or got a small book, maybe even exploration experience or something, it doesn’t always have to be a monetary or item reward; I would still do it and take enjoyment away from it. The fun of it really, for me, is the fact that it was presented and I has to take a moment to think about it and figure it out; in other words my brain got a work out outside of the normal MMO type of cognitive workout. They offer a meaning for slow-down and even if the answer is eventually online somewhere, it would still require time to do them, even if it’s for a brief moment.
Generally, no.
Specifically, if they're procedural and unique per group, maybe. But global/competitive? Nah.
Stand 6 people in these six places and/or interacting with these widgets? Sure, that's not too bad.
Knowledge puzzles where you kill 6 things, collect six procedural notes, combine them for a code, sure, again, not horrible.
But purely random, non-deterministic, and/or HRT+RTT timing puzzles? Brell, no.
Jumping puzzles? Again, a hearty Brell no from me and anyone in my guild currently interested in Pantheon. MMO's != platformers.
Puzzles that test lore in interesting ways can be pretty cool, but if they're not procedural, they're just documentation exercises. (check the wiki!)
I like things that require legit sacrifices for entry, like.. Sure, you can go in here, but you need to supply a food, a drink, a potion and a scroll, one in each spot, then the door opens and all those items are consumed.
Or, Sure you can go in here, but it will pull 25% of your endurance, health and/or mana pool as the teleport cost, either one time or persistently while you're in there.
Similarly, puzzles that have you stand six people each in their own spot, then each of you has to perform a ranged action (even if it's throw a rock, which everyone has) within a 10 second window. That's fun, requires teamwork, and isn't highlighting a bad Internet connection for someone.
Some games (Dwarrows, I'm looking at you) have such strange, obtuse or generally random puzzles that you end up just flipping levers and eventually it works. That, to me, is a waste of developer time and just causes customer frustration. If I can't figure it out, or, I DO figure it out, and it doesn't work? To Brell with that.
I will offer one last caution about Unity. It is genuinely notorious when it comes to shared state objects in a scene. Doors are the worst and most common examples. Relying on Unity to both set, clear, display and permit stateful interaction changes in a Multiplayer scenario/situation? You're going to have a bad time, if history is any indication.
Maybe they've written that entire set of code, modules, functions, or libraries since I had to personally use it, but wow, it was absolutely terrible, in the past. Please don't subject us to that much terrible, if it's still terrible. :)
I enjoy puzzle content when it meshes well with the environment and doesnt seem like its bolted on after the fact. BUT it has to serve some sort of underlying purpose, gating content etc.
EQ2 Unrest and Nektropos Castle come to mind as being done well. To progress through the zone you had to perform tasks (without being guided as to what you even needed to do). But I'd like to see some variance in the required actions/tasks to keep it somewhat dynamic and not just go to allakhazam and looking up what steps I need to do.
This type of stuff reminds of the lost dead genre of adventure games...the sleeping dragon series, Myst series...this eventually spawned resident evil and some very cool Sierra PC games
which incidentally I loved. Sierra eventually teamed up to make a turn based rpg to compete with EQ that failed and is a free play game now
dungeon puzzles? Maybe...if we got randomly locked in a room deep in a dungeon... it the system of finding a way out should be something that defeats the knowledge base...so maybe something like physical coop challenge or maybe random proc challenge type of puzzle. You would have to create a random morphing puzzle with a ton of iterations or a timing based thing that uses a proc ingame clue..
I'm not sure how this would integrate if the maps are already static,but Maybe generate a section of a dungeon where the map can change. This could be especially interesting if the entrance is a hidden wall that changes location. The puzzles should have some risk and mystery associated, so the outcomes shouldn't always be good or the same..it might be a little disturbing if you wander into a hidden chamber and occasionally are transported to the Skar home city mid-dungeon crawl even though the knowledge base said you might find epic weapon hidden sometimes
Also, it might be pretty cool if there wasn't just a roll to find out what's in the chest after the monster is dead, but instead a roll to determine the entire path/maze/puzzle and trap attached to the monsters death to then the subsequent exploration and puzzle to find the treasure. The more you can nest it and make it feel original, the better
puzzles to unlock a treasure chest without the trap, Sure...for example, I really enjoyed the scaled skill based hacking/archaeology style of puzzle in EveOnline for opening a data cache
I feel like hidden lore should have some security and or traps that lend themselves to mini puzzles
Kilsin said:Puzzles - Do you like solving in-game puzzles and if so, what types of puzzles do you like the best or consider the most enjoyable / challenging? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
The first time? Yes. After that? Hell no.
Oh, and puzzles are only puzzles the first time someone solves it, then it is spread across hundreds of spoilers sights and it isn't a puzzle anymore. It is then just a stupid, pointless, time sink.
I look at the zone of Skyshine in the Veliuos expansion of EQ1. To get to the top of the zone you had to go through a maze. Yeah, figuring it out the first time was interesting. After that you could run the maze in your effing sleep. It then served no ongoing purpose.
Puzzle is such a broad term. Yes, I do like solving puzzles in video games. In an MMO I would expect to solve puzzles that have to do with figuring out what an NPC wants to complete a quest, or where something of interest might be located, things of that nature. Maybe even puzzles that include finding out what items are required to produce a certain thing while crafting.
The problem is that at some point the solution to all the puzzles will be online. It takes a lot of restraint for me to not just look up the answers :) In moments of weekness I do that, but in general I try to find the solutions through my experiences in game (which can include talking to other players in game).
Doing puzzles once or twice if used sparingly is fine but they easily becomes boring and repetitive. . DDO is a prime example of overdone puzzles that you want to stay away from.
It is easy to get overly gimmicky in a lot of ways. Puzzles are a prime example. Encounter designs should lean towards standard, battle type encounters 99% of the time imho.
@Vandraad I wouldn't consider the skyshrine hallways a maze or a puzzle. Just because there is a large area that you have to learn to navigate to get through doesn't make it a puzzle.
philo said:Doing puzzles once or twice if used sparingly is fine but they easily becomes boring and repetitive. . DDO is a prime example of overdone puzzles that you want to stay away from.
@Vandraad I wouldn't consider the skyshrine hallways a maze or a puzzle. Just because there is a large area that you have to learn to navigate to get through doesn't make it a puzzle imho.
Oh, sure. I can see that.
It depends on how the puzzle is presented.
If it's something like "answer these three riddles to open the door in the dungeon every time you want to go through it" - that might be fun at first, but it gets old FAST
On the other hand if it's far more involved or far-reaching, like this:
- Scattered around the ruins are obelisks, each containing a space for a gemstone. Each obelisk has references to a particular beast native to the region.
- Inscribed on a wall in those same ruins is an ancient rhyme that describes the colors of the ancient beast-gods.
- Players who manage to find the gemstones (rare, random drops) and put them in the correct pillars based on the rhyme can trigger an event.-
That's a kind of puzzle I think is good for the game.
Point is: Puzzles should be used sparingly and when they are used they should be something special. Not a hurdle that everyone has to get past to finish a quest or see part of a dungeon, but instead, something that people work together to figure out and something amazing happens as a result.
PLEASE GOD don't take the next 10 months implementing a "Puzzle System" into this game
A puzzle or running group of puzzles in a dungeon, Tower or Keep that in the end opens up a passage for you and your group (if everyone is keyed ) and gives you access to a higher level with out running the first or second level everytime. these types of puzzles are nice because you put the work in and get an ongoing reward.
I do but it depends on the context.
I think that puzzles are great for exploration purposes and adding hidden secrets in the environment which can be discovered. However, I don't like puzzles that are for mundane achievements, such as the jump puzzles in Guild Wars 2. I also think that the perception system in its self is a huge puzzle or at least allows for the natural set up of puzzles. I mean form the streams we have seen of Haldir's Cave there was a perception ping which lead the player to discover keys that have an unknown use and finding the use of that key is part of the larger puzzle. I don't think that it would be too overtly hard to set up puzzles or bread crumbs that lead to puzzles with how the perception system is designed.
I think the key is to make puzzles and quests feel alive, natural, and dynamic(when you can) you can have less quests in a game if you put time into them and make them genuinely interesting.
Another interesting idea popped into my head, one place where I wouldn't mind seeing instancing is in questing/puzzling. To somehow figure out a way to give the player a unique experience in which they cannot simply look up the answers to the quest puzzle is key. Somehow instancing the quest inside the non-instanced world would be a fascinating thing.
Kilsin said:Puzzles - Do you like solving in-game puzzles and if so, what types of puzzles do you like the best or consider the most enjoyable / challenging? #MMORPG#CommunityMatters
We live in a world where science explains most things around us. It explains it all.
Terminus is a world with magic and supposedly mysteries. For that to work, you'll want these puzzle type things in the game. They can be the glue that ties one event/zone with something else.
Leaving out puzzles to me, leaves me with a world where I can kill or gather. And that would be it really. It doesn't feel like an fantasy world.
If this game would have elements of Dungeons and Dragons in it, let puzzles be a one of those things.
Our world had plenty of mysteries and puzzles, but we are now thousands of years advanced with technology solving all those things. However, for people living hundreds of years before us, there were plenty of mysteries, hidden dangers, legendary tales and puzzles to figure out.
Puzzles are things that should be implemented at the correct place and with to certain extent. It should not be common at all. It's an expensive and exclusive thing to work out as bossmob, so let's keep it unique and rare.
They should be used to hide something, to prevent (not ultimately ofc) players from reaching certain areas, goods or npc's.
I see puzzles, riddles, locks especially in places such as down in dungeons, at boss rooms or other areas of higher importance for npc's, places of mysterious magic. Perhaps even on traininggrounds of foes.
How are they challenging? A passageway closing if the puzzle isn't solved in time and a wider detour is required. Loot is dissolved in toxic pools if it's not reached in time. An npc dissappearing if the puzzle isn't solved. Doors not opening,etc. Failure could lead to actual damage or a degrated rewards.
A challenge to me can envolve coordination between various players, which does not include spells or combat arts. Language riddles, symbolic runes. Tools and other equipment, burning stuff with torches or just lighting the room or wall to read out load. This ties into idea of having a world beside killing and looting, so if the dev's are willing to design items that can be used for this, the more Pantheon feels like a world instead of game.
I'm ok with all types of puzzles really. numberic, alphabetical, riddles that relate to lore
When I think of solving puzzles in an MMO I go back to DDO. There were some good puzzles (and tedious) that needed to be completed for an adventure to be completed. While all adventures/dungeons should not need puzzle solving having a puzzle needed to continue here and there would be nice.
I would love to see some puzzle hints be found in the random books found in the world. It would so much more meaningful to pick up and read a book in the game, that actually had some tangable value other than Lore. it can be suble hints on where to find objects Or clue to a perception ping.
Or a detail to a puzzle in a dungeon in some other part of the world. If you find a book in the world it should have a point,