I suppose, technically it's impossible to stop BUT you CAN make it hard by not giving out loads of loggable info and you can make it largely avoided if you provide a useful and immersive in-game alternative.
Personally, I think there should be some kind of limited in-game mapping - there have been many posts about it so I won't start that discussion again...
But I think if there was some kind of mapping in-game the majority of people would use it and, so, won't go to 3rd party spoiler sites, also 3rd party tool developers won't bother if it is made hard for them and if there is little demand (because people use the in-game maps).
I have no preference either way, I have played game both with and without mini-maps and it was no problem.
As an aside, you could make Maps part of the game but the community has to build them over time. Every In-Game Nation could have a Carptographers Syndicate where Guilds sign up (maybe with restrictions) and maps are formed by a Nations involvement in that zone and lost through competition with other Nations.
Upon joining the Syndcate a Guild has to lease access to the data from the syndicate (by some means) and gains access to the maps for its members as a result of its efforts. The more control over the area your nation has the more detailed the maps can become.
Look they might not allow Addons, but like i said earlier, they are ways around it and makes a tons of thing that you want for an addon still be achieved by not actually using an addon.
Maps- Can be loaded up on another PC/Laptop.
DPS Meter- Can have a Bot run in the background collecting information and giving it to you in DPS, pretty much doing the exact same thing but it runs outside of the game not inside, and it wouldnt break TOS due to it not actually being in the game.
Auctioneer- Can run a Bot that sits in a trading Hot Spot, can read WTS Messages and collect the selling prices and configuring the averages of said prices, and in a AH if they do it right, you wouldn't even need this feature anyway.
I honestly could keep going, but the biggest thing I'm trying to say is that regardless if they allow Addons or not their is a way to accomplish a feature you want, for as long as the features we are tallking about doesn't affect the way you play your character, like LAS to UAS, or DBM, and thing like this.
Riahuf22 said:Look they might not allow Addons, but like i said earlier, they are ways around it and makes a tons of thing that you want for an addon still be achieved by not actually using an addon.
Maps- Can be loaded up on another PC/Laptop.
DPS Meter- Can have a Bot run in the background collecting information and giving it to you in DPS, pretty much doing the exact same thing but it runs outside of the game not inside, and it wouldnt break TOS due to it not actually being in the game.
Auctioneer- Can run a Bot that sits in a trading Hot Spot, can read WTS Messages and collect the selling prices and configuring the averages of said prices, and in a AH if they do it right, you wouldn't even need this feature anyway.
I honestly could keep going, but the biggest thing I'm trying to say is that regardless if they allow Addons or not their is a way to accomplish a feature you want, for as long as the features we are tallking about doesn't affect the way you play your character, like LAS to UAS, or DBM, and thing like this.
Agreed, but the number of people using can be greatly effected by the stance of the devs, nevermind technical ways of making it more difficult.
If the devs make it clear add-ons and whatnot are not allowed, or even against TOS, then most people will happily go without (the same as if there is a decent in-game map, most people won't bother looking for 3rd party solutions).
If, like in some games, the Add-Ons menu item is front and center, you are pretty much *asking* people to go find out what they are and how to use them and you are telling them youy *want* your game played with add-ons.
VR could even go so far as to say add-ons and the like are considered against TOS, like a lot of shooters do. It *does* have an effect on people and they can even ban folks that do stupid things like post videos of themselves playing with them active (has happened with shooter players).
VR does not have the resources or skills to create anything such as a client-side anti-cheat. And frankly, I will not be playing a game with some type of invasive RAT on my system as most FPS's require now.
In a high-fantasy, RPG, if you feel the need to cheat then you obviously suck.
Thus why I, and many other people will never play PVP.
https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/RAT-remote-access-Trojan
I'd still really like to see them incorporate mapmaking into being a Lorekeeper. Make it a sub-tradeskill, and allow player created, tradeable maps.
@Liav, youre right. A method of creating a Unity minimap has very little to do with Pantheon. It'd be useless to a player that wanted to create an add-on because it would require the mod to be done in Unity and a recompile of the base code. Easily detected and thwarted.
zewtastic said:VR does not have the resources or skills to create anything such as a client-side anti-cheat. And frankly, I will not be playing a game with some type of invasive RAT on my system as most FPS's require now.
In a high-fantasy, RPG, if you feel the need to cheat then you obviously suck.
Thus why I, and many other people will never play PVP.
https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/RAT-remote-access-Trojan
Like it or not, the less invasive they make their anti cheat program the easier it will be to hack it and the harder to stop it from happening, so you might not like it but it is one of the only ways to actually stop hacking, you have to dig deep, don't hate the Devs for having to go that far, hate the hackers it the only reson why we basically have them in the first place.
Me honestly I want them to do what they have to, to make sure it as hack free as possibly, and if they have to put in a program that checks for hack in deep into my PC to do it to make sure the others are playing by those rules than im down for it.
Plus lets be honest there are things everyone is using that is quite invasive already you probably just didn't know about it.
philo said: Some here are underestimating what add ons can be used for. Programs running outside the game have never been the issue. Flashing lights in game that tell a player to do something that requires a twitch response in real time is the issue. Things that effect gameplay and increase the players ability to react are the issue. If you think add ons are about maps or parsing dps or bots there is a failure to understand the advantages add ons can provide.
And you can technically do that without the addon being in the game as well, so you saying we don't understand, is just admitting you dont understand.
I think using an addon or Mod to bypass a game feature is silly and lazy IMHO. So here is a good question: How did you get around IRL without a map or modern convences(smartphones and such)? Usually signposts,landmarks and/or terrain features usually. A good example your traveling down a dirt raod and you know that a town is close by because there is a small creek that runs north to south along the edge of that town and if you see the creek you know your close by. So what I am saying is to use your noodle and apply what you learned irl and remember places & landmarks,utilize problems solving skills. By no means this is an insult or a backhanded comment, just want people to religh on what they they know and/or leraned IRL and apply it to a games. and you might be suprised on what you might discover. but ultimatily it's up to you.
I'm afraid you're all wrong! We need a cartography tradeskill with Lgendary Grand Masters being able to craft treasure maps that spawn mobs with uber loot in very difficult to reach locations!
Maps are one thing, if people want to use a third party variant or one in game that is provided by a cartography system, it's up to them. What they won't have is minimaps with GPS echo location and that's ultimately what matters and subsequently one of the things they absolutely can prevent. One of the methods, pulling map files and putting them through a Unity environment just won't work for telemetry given that even the alternative of a colored pencil drawing would be better for referential logistics.
All in all, this is a non-issue and those looking to game the system are going to be more disappointed than the purist who demand nothing.
Riahuf22 said:philo said: Some here are underestimating what add ons can be used for. Programs running outside the game have never been the issue. Flashing lights in game that tell a player to do something that requires a twitch response in real time is the issue. Things that effect gameplay and increase the players ability to react are the issue. If you think add ons are about maps or parsing dps or bots there is a failure to understand the advantages add ons can provide.And you can technically do that without the addon being in the game as well, so you saying we don't understand, is just admitting you dont understand.
I was trying not to call you out directly but since You replied lol... You can in no way do some things without the add ons being in game.
Anything that takes a fraction of a second response time requires an in game indicator. You simply can't control your character and watch a second screen in the required amount of time.
Your posts are the ones I was referring to when I mentioned that some were underestimating the benefit of add one (I guess you realized that so you responded).
You can say "And you can technically do that without the addon being in the game as well" but that just proves my point. There is a lack of experience or a misunderstanding or some kind of disconnect there. You must not have any expetience with the type of in game indicators I am referring to. There is no way "you can do that without the add-on being in game"...and then you add multiple of them for the same encounter. It is simply not possible.
If you don't know what I'm referring to that's ok. Just know that you are wrong about them being usable out of game.
philo said:Riahuf22 said:philo said: Some here are underestimating what add ons can be used for. Programs running outside the game have never been the issue. Flashing lights in game that tell a player to do something that requires a twitch response in real time is the issue. Things that effect gameplay and increase the players ability to react are the issue. If you think add ons are about maps or parsing dps or bots there is a failure to understand the advantages add ons can provide.And you can technically do that without the addon being in the game as well, so you saying we don't understand, is just admitting you dont understand.
I was trying not to call you out directly but since You replied lol... You can in no way do some things without the add ons being in game.
Anything that takes a fraction of a second response time requires an in game indicator. You simply can't control your character and watch a second screen in the required amount of time.
Your posts are the ones I was referring to when I mentioned that some were underestimating the benefit of add one (I guess you realized that so you responded).
You can say "And you can technically do that without the addon being in the game as well" but that just proves my point. There is a lack of experience or a misunderstanding or some kind of disconnect there. You must not have any expetience with the type of in game indicators I am referring to. There is no way "you can do that without the add-on being in game"...and then you add multiple of them for the same encounter. It is simply not possible.
If you don't know what I'm referring to that's ok. Just know that you are wrong about them being usable out of game.
Are you sure about that? So if i took lets say the Bot that scans for parameters and configured it to look for Casting instead and it mde a audio ping or warning through my headset, that that couldnt happen? or if i took the same Bot and ran in through Raids and learned the abilities of said fights and ran those parameters through and it told me which one he was doing that it couldn't be done, and it would still be OUTSIDE of the game, it wouldn't visually warning me, now granted I'm sure VR will not allow this to happen and would probably call it cheating, but nonetheless it isn't an addon, which is obviously the whole point I've been saying, you aren't against addons specifically, you're against programs that can make the gameplay cookie cutter and simple to follow, but hey i guess you just had to call me out and found out your still wrong.
Bonechip said:This came up on the /r/PantheonMMO sub: "How to make a simple minimap in Unity3D"
What's your feelings on this?
Riahuf22 said:zewtastic said:VR does not have the resources or skills to create anything such as a client-side anti-cheat. And frankly, I will not be playing a game with some type of invasive RAT on my system as most FPS's require now.
In a high-fantasy, RPG, if you feel the need to cheat then you obviously suck.
Thus why I, and many other people will never play PVP.
https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/RAT-remote-access-Trojan
Like it or not, the less invasive they make their anti cheat program the easier it will be to hack it and the harder to stop it from happening, so you might not like it but it is one of the only ways to actually stop hacking, you have to dig deep, don't hate the Devs for having to go that far, hate the hackers it the only reson why we basically have them in the first place.
Me honestly I want them to do what they have to, to make sure it as hack free as possibly, and if they have to put in a program that checks for hack in deep into my PC to do it to make sure the others are playing by those rules than im down for it.
Plus lets be honest there are things everyone is using that is quite invasive already you probably just didn't know about it.
Been in tech since tech the computer became a thing. Been playing PC games since, well before they were invented. Worked in the game industry for many years managing all aspects of the technology including code writing and tool creation.
The coding skills required to do a safe, accurate kernal based anti-cheat are not the same as the code skills to create game functionality. Oddly enough, many programmers seem to know little about how computers work at the core level, as well as understand security. A specialist is needed. It's a different skill set.
The over-head managing deep-dives into who is really cheating, hacking, or is it a false-positive, are far more than the VR staff has cycles to support.
If VR can show a viable proof-of-concept, and get some real funding, then I suspect some attention will be paid towards many areas they are avoiding.
Can't stand all the bots in FFXIV....often they clog up access to NPCs there are so many. It boils down to a very well thought out way to ruin the game for the rest of us. Maps at least are just a personal cheat.. not sure I really care if a few people use them so much..it would be nice to find groups that are willing to explore a place though instead of rush it knowing all the secrets in advance. Alas, a new game will always have that advantage for a little while..perhaps longer if they implement anti cheat. I didn't need mspaint while playing anyway
zewtastic said:Riahuf22 said:zewtastic said:VR does not have the resources or skills to create anything such as a client-side anti-cheat. And frankly, I will not be playing a game with some type of invasive RAT on my system as most FPS's require now.
In a high-fantasy, RPG, if you feel the need to cheat then you obviously suck.
Thus why I, and many other people will never play PVP.
https://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/definition/RAT-remote-access-Trojan
Like it or not, the less invasive they make their anti cheat program the easier it will be to hack it and the harder to stop it from happening, so you might not like it but it is one of the only ways to actually stop hacking, you have to dig deep, don't hate the Devs for having to go that far, hate the hackers it the only reson why we basically have them in the first place.
Me honestly I want them to do what they have to, to make sure it as hack free as possibly, and if they have to put in a program that checks for hack in deep into my PC to do it to make sure the others are playing by those rules than im down for it.
Plus lets be honest there are things everyone is using that is quite invasive already you probably just didn't know about it.
Been in tech since tech the computer became a thing. Been playing PC games since, well before they were invented. Worked in the game industry for many years managing all aspects of the technology including code writing and tool creation.
The coding skills required to do a safe, accurate kernal based anti-cheat are not the same as the code skills to create game functionality. Oddly enough, many programmers seem to know little about how computers work at the core level, as well as understand security. A specialist is needed. It's a different skill set.
The over-head managing deep-dives into who is really cheating, hacking, or is it a false-positive, are far more than the VR staff has cycles to support.
If VR can show a viable proof-of-concept, and get some real funding, then I suspect some attention will be paid towards many areas they are avoiding.
Looks like Valorant has done this and granted it might have stopped some innocent players, nothing prefect, and we shouldn't ask it to be, but if it stops a ton of hackers than it was kind of worth it, you can disagree, but if they aren't going to do everything in their power to stop hacking you might as well not try at all, because the difference between not trying hard enough to not trying at all in a hacking world is the same, only giving it everything you got truly makes a difference.
I wonder if the data stream from the server to the client and back could be coded with a VPN token that changes each time you log in. The encryption and decryption opperate on different keys such even knowning your own VPN token will not be enough to crack it quickly. That way the data stream is always changing even for the same task from login to login. Could make the data stream that most cheat programs rely on filtering very difficult for the lay cheater to use. The true professionals can’t really be stopped even by nation governments much less a tiny game company.
VPN tokens are just good for account security anyway to protect from casual account theft which tend to cause massive CSR headaches.
Since this thread has essentially been hijacked to talk about hacking. (btw, I have no idea wtf is going on, from the OP all the way to this point this thread has been a wild ride)
What is the absolute most troublesome aspect of MQ2 in, say, EQ? Well guess what, the devs have actually publicly acknowledged which part they dislike the most. They dislike the enhanced maps. ShowEQ/MySEQ is also primarily a map hacking tool.
Looking at EQ's design, it is very easy to see why this information could leverage more value than pretty much anything else. In EQ, knowledge is power. Knowing where every named is up, and which named are up in a zone simply by zoning in is absolutely absurdly powerful information in a game like that.
The MQ2 community internally has always distinguished between active (something that interacts with the server) and passive (something that simply reads network information that isn't readily available by default to the game client). Warping is considering an "active" hack, and has never been packaged with the stock compile of MQ2, just as an example. The stock compile of MQ2 is purely passive, in that it interacts with the client only, and reads network traffic for information about spawns.
What is the point in me typing this up? Well, Valorant's Fog of War feature has nothing to do with their ring-0 anti cheat system, and is something that I already expect to see in Pantheon. Developers by now should know that giving the client knowledge of every single spawn in a zone is a really, really bad idea. Warping should be trivial to detect, but passive hacks that don't interact with the server are basically impossible to detect without having some form of spyware on the client's PC.
Limiting client information is the logical move. The devs have already acknowledged this, and it is what I expect to see happen.
Liav said:Since this thread has essentially been hijacked to talk about hacking. (btw, I have no idea wtf is going on, from the OP all the way to this point this thread has been a wild ride)
What is the absolute most troublesome aspect of MQ2 in, say, EQ? Well guess what, the devs have actually publicly acknowledged which part they dislike the most. They dislike the enhanced maps. ShowEQ/MySEQ is also primarily a map hacking tool.
Looking at EQ's design, it is very easy to see why this information could leverage more value than pretty much anything else. In EQ, knowledge is power. Knowing where every named is up, and which named are up in a zone simply by zoning in is absolutely absurdly powerful information in a game like that.
The MQ2 community internally has always distinguished between active (something that interacts with the server) and passive (something that simply reads network information that isn't readily available by default to the game client). Warping is considering an "active" hack, and has never been packaged with the stock compile of MQ2, just as an example. The stock compile of MQ2 is purely passive, in that it interacts with the client only, and reads network traffic for information about spawns.
What is the point in me typing this up? Well, Valorant's Fog of War feature has nothing to do with their ring-0 anti cheat system, and is something that I already expect to see in Pantheon. Developers by now should know that giving the client knowledge of every single spawn in a zone is a really, really bad idea. Warping should be trivial to detect, but passive hacks that don't interact with the server are basically impossible to detect without having some form of spyware on the client's PC.
Limiting client information is the logical move. The devs have already acknowledged this, and it is what I expect to see happen.
Valorant also makes you download a program Called Vanguard, and it digs deep into your PC to find those hacks that are also very hard to find other wise, and if you uninstall or stop it fro working it won't allow you to play their game, granted some people think it very invasive, and they think a game shouldn't be able to do that, but me if it stops the hacks and keeps the game as clean as possible, than im totally down for it.