Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Not everything about the "good" old days was "goo

    • 91 posts
    April 26, 2020 3:57 PM PDT

    one thing good about the good old days: having to wait on a boat...not because it was more immersive or slow or because waiting is intrinsically more engaging (at least not for everyon) ...it’s because when I finally got on the boat on schedule, there were several people with me.

    Same with corpse runs...the mechanics weren’t necessarily good in and of themselves, but it encourages grouping.

    I think they envisioned a group experience when creating the old mechanics that people complained about...Those group experiences for me are why the games from the "good old days"seemed so good.

    Maybe we needed those rough mechanics to make us play the way it was intended


    This post was edited by Baerr at April 26, 2020 4:10 PM PDT
    • 1618 posts
    April 26, 2020 4:33 PM PDT

    Vander said:

    I'd just add in all fairness that WoW also took out all the B.S. that people hated that SOE at the time would not, because they did not listen to the players. Yes I agree Wow also did all the things that you pointed out.

     

    The worst thing that VR could do is listen to this audience. When you read through the forums here, there is no consensus on what the future players want.The future players themselves don't even seem to know what they want. They contradict themselves with each new argument. If VR changes their vision to meet one crowd's wishes, it will lose the other crowd. Then the crowd that complained endlessly about what wanted, then got it, will leave because they didn't actually want it. They just wanted to sound "cool and important" in their posts.

    The only hope for Pantheon is for the Devs to stick to their vision.

    Listening to the Internet is the fastest way to fail in any endeavor.

    • 74 posts
    April 26, 2020 4:53 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    Vander said:

    I'd just add in all fairness that WoW also took out all the B.S. that people hated that SOE at the time would not, because they did not listen to the players. Yes I agree Wow also did all the things that you pointed out.

     

    The worst thing that VR could do is listen to this audience. When you read through the forums here, there is no consensus on what the future players want.The future players themselves don't even seem to know what they want. They contradict themselves with each new argument. If VR changes their vision to meet one crowd's wishes, it will lose the other crowd. Then the crowd that complained endlessly about what wanted, then got it, will leave because they didn't actually want it. They just wanted to sound "cool and important" in their posts.

    The only hope for Pantheon is for the Devs to stick to their vision.

    Listening to the Internet is the fastest way to fail in any endeavor.

     

    + a gazillion

     

    edit: If they truly stick to their game tenets we should be in good shape. 


    This post was edited by ghost7 at April 26, 2020 4:56 PM PDT
    • 4 posts
    April 26, 2020 6:00 PM PDT

    I disagree.  some of the things you named are EXACTLY what i miss about eq original.  While at the time doing 5hr naked CRs in Plane of Fear is something i still have PTSD over, i realize now it was things like that that made EQ unique and challenging.  POF now is bullshit there is no risk, no "fear".  having to spend weeks learning a particular encoutner was frustrating but the sense of accomplishment seemed greater.

    Look there are plenty of games that have all the mechanics to make it easier or not require you to seek therapy afterwards, but for those of us who miss the unique viseral experience of playing the original EQ, we are the ones who are the core audience for Pantheon IMO.

    • 32 posts
    April 26, 2020 6:38 PM PDT
    I think corpse runs kept you honest. Yes, corpse runs suck, but they made things that are challenging give you second thoughts. In all games now, even EQ1, you don't care about the repercussions of death, you'll Leeroy Jenkins into a raid mob just to see how you and your buddies do. Back then, you'd think twice about attacking the Royals in Chardok, or zoning into Fear just for the hell of it. Without the fear of death, who gives a crap about training people, or ninja running through mobs trying to create a shortcut.
    • 1273 posts
    April 26, 2020 9:29 PM PDT

    Tevarion said:

    ... having to spend weeks learning a particular encoutner was frustrating but the sense of accomplishment seemed greater...

    Totally agree with this.  Without a sense of accomplishment there is very little value in the adventure.  Without challenge there will be no sense of accomplishment.  I'm not here to determine HOW they make this game challenging, I just not it has to be challenging enough that the AVERAGE gamer doesn't like it because it's too hard.

    • 1399 posts
    April 26, 2020 9:55 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    Vander said:

    I'd just add in all fairness that WoW also took out all the B.S. that people hated that SOE at the time would not, because they did not listen to the players. Yes I agree Wow also did all the things that you pointed out.

     

    The worst thing that VR could do is listen to this audience. When you read through the forums here, there is no consensus on what the future players want.The future players themselves don't even seem to know what they want. They contradict themselves with each new argument. If VR changes their vision to meet one crowd's wishes, it will lose the other crowd. Then the crowd that complained endlessly about what wanted, then got it, will leave because they didn't actually want it. They just wanted to sound "cool and important" in their posts.

    The only hope for Pantheon is for the Devs to stick to their vision.

    Listening to the Internet is the fastest way to fail in any endeavor.

     

    And Beefcake win's this thread.

    You can close it now Kilsin, nothing left to be learned here.

    • 1479 posts
    April 27, 2020 5:32 AM PDT

    Man you should probably not haven taken personnaly Beef's answer or anyone else.

     

    Above everything, I totally agree with Beekcake's assertion.

    • 3852 posts
    April 27, 2020 7:50 AM PDT

    Some people are going beyond getting carried away here. These aren't the best of times and many of us have problems unrelated to Pantheon or these forums but let's do our best to be civilized here and avoid personal attacks on eachother. Thanks.

    • 2752 posts
    April 27, 2020 9:28 AM PDT

    I'd say at the time WoW took steps toward a better direction for a number of things (like raiding) whereas EQ/SoE at the time was well on the way down the wrong path. 

    • 1315 posts
    April 28, 2020 8:51 AM PDT

    What WoW did was allow a much larger percentage of its player base to engage endgame content and end game character power growth.  Most of the difficulty involve in EQ was just getting access to the content.  Sure it may take a dozen wipes to learn a fight but once learned it was usually pretty simple.  You just rarely had multiple attempts on a pure competition server or multiple nights on a rotation server.

    WoW was and is far more development time efficient due to the player base to content consumption ratio.  That is just plain the power of instances and lockouts vs pure open world.  Pantheon is already brutally suffering from a lack of development manpower. It is my firm belief that once a Pantheon server is remotely mature there will be virtually no raid content available outside of the few lead progression guilds.  That will likely drive most people away from the game once they realize they have hit the hardcore raider glass ceiling.

    At that point I predict that the general open world only raiding concept will be abandoned for 90% of the raid content in favor of some sudo instancing and or triggered raids.  Only the true world monsters will remain open world content.  The only way it could remain open world is if there are say 100 raid mobs on a 3 day respawn timer that takes a 5 group raid force 3 hours to get to and take down.  That would then be 3000 characters getting to raid once every 3 days or 1000 players every day.

    If there are fewer targets or each raid takes less time then raiding will only be for the elite hardcore raiders.  Just like it was in EQ.

    • 633 posts
    April 28, 2020 9:27 AM PDT

    Trasak said:

    What WoW did was allow a much larger percentage of its player base to engage endgame content and end game character power growth.  Most of the difficulty involve in EQ was just getting access to the content.  Sure it may take a dozen wipes to learn a fight but once learned it was usually pretty simple.  You just rarely had multiple attempts on a pure competition server or multiple nights on a rotation server.

    WoW was and is far more development time efficient due to the player base to content consumption ratio.  That is just plain the power of instances and lockouts vs pure open world.  Pantheon is already brutally suffering from a lack of development manpower. It is my firm belief that once a Pantheon server is remotely mature there will be virtually no raid content available outside of the few lead progression guilds.  That will likely drive most people away from the game once they realize they have hit the hardcore raider glass ceiling.

    At that point I predict that the general open world only raiding concept will be abandoned for 90% of the raid content in favor of some sudo instancing and or triggered raids.  Only the true world monsters will remain open world content.  The only way it could remain open world is if there are say 100 raid mobs on a 3 day respawn timer that takes a 5 group raid force 3 hours to get to and take down.  That would then be 3000 characters getting to raid once every 3 days or 1000 players every day.

    If there are fewer targets or each raid takes less time then raiding will only be for the elite hardcore raiders.  Just like it was in EQ.

    This goes entirely on the assumption that a majority of the population simply believes that in an MMORPG, there is only endgame content and nothing else matters.  That is how most MMORPGs are developed these days, but there are plenty of people who wish to "live" in a world, and not just log in every night to go kill a few bosses.  A lot of people want to just level up characters, play in different styles, meet people, etc.

    I have the feeling that there are also likely many people who only think of endgame content and don't think of the levelling, exploring and socal aspects as enjoyable, because they've never played a game that allowed or reinforced that.

    • 1315 posts
    April 28, 2020 9:43 AM PDT

    kelenin said:

    This goes entirely on the assumption that a majority of the population simply believes that in an MMORPG, there is only endgame content and nothing else matters.  That is how most MMORPGs are developed these days, but there are plenty of people who wish to "live" in a world, and not just log in every night to go kill a few bosses.  A lot of people want to just level up characters, play in different styles, meet people, etc.

    I have the feeling that there are also likely many people who only think of endgame content and don't think of the levelling, exploring and socal aspects as enjoyable, because they've never played a game that allowed or reinforced that.

    The “its about the Journey and not the destination” is a pie in the sky dream.  It is a worthy goal and the reason I favor logarithmic power growth by character level but even the people who claim they want the Journey still want their big crit numbers.  All stories must have a beginning, midpoint and end.  The same with any game or Journey.  If VR expects people to care more about the midgame than the end game then there needs to be a powerful reason to either not level deliberately or reincarnate/reroll endlessly. 

    I have not seen anything yet that leads me to believe that rerolling or staying at mid levels will be rewarded more than rushing to max level and staying there.  Until I do I think it is a safe assumption to that 75% of the people currently interested in Pantheon and (99.999% of people who play MMOs now) will view endgame content as their primary goal they are working towards.  There definitely doesn’t appear to be enough non adventure content for players to stay busy.  If only 0.01% of the player base at max level can experience endgame content then they will leave.

    • 633 posts
    April 28, 2020 10:41 AM PDT

    Trasak said:

    kelenin said:

    This goes entirely on the assumption that a majority of the population simply believes that in an MMORPG, there is only endgame content and nothing else matters.  That is how most MMORPGs are developed these days, but there are plenty of people who wish to "live" in a world, and not just log in every night to go kill a few bosses.  A lot of people want to just level up characters, play in different styles, meet people, etc.

    I have the feeling that there are also likely many people who only think of endgame content and don't think of the levelling, exploring and socal aspects as enjoyable, because they've never played a game that allowed or reinforced that.

    The “its about the Journey and not the destination” is a pie in the sky dream.  It is a worthy goal and the reason I favor logarithmic power growth by character level but even the people who claim they want the Journey still want their big crit numbers.  All stories must have a beginning, midpoint and end.  The same with any game or Journey.  If VR expects people to care more about the midgame than the end game then there needs to be a powerful reason to either not level deliberately or reincarnate/reroll endlessly. 

    I have not seen anything yet that leads me to believe that rerolling or staying at mid levels will be rewarded more than rushing to max level and staying there.  Until I do I think it is a safe assumption to that 75% of the people currently interested in Pantheon and (99.999% of people who play MMOs now) will view endgame content as their primary goal they are working towards.  There definitely doesn’t appear to be enough non adventure content for players to stay busy.  If only 0.01% of the player base at max level can experience endgame content then they will leave.

    What do you consider endgame content?  The ability to do any content the game has to offer?  Or just giving you something to do once you are max level (at the end game).  If it's being able to do all content that is available, then I would have to say you are either wrong or wildly exagerating your estimates.  Sure, there are some people who only play a game if they beleive they'll have access to everything (and those are usually power-gamers anyway).  I'll also concede that everyone wants to better their characters, but not everyone believes they have to be the absolute best character with all best-in-slot of everything.  The only way a game like this is possible is to remove all challenge from it, because in order for casual players to enjoy it they must be able to do max content quickly and easily.

    If you just mean that there must be stuff to do at max-level to keep you occupied and allow you to still enjoy the game, then I agree.  Because regardless, if someone wants to play a character long enough they'll likely hit max level at some point.  That being said, in EverQuest there was a lot of people who didn't like being high level, they really enjoyed low level and ended up with a lot of characters in the 20-40 range before Kunark even came out.  Usually those are the more casual players who don't want to spend all the time getting that next level and would rather get their sense of accomplishment out of levelling up a new character.  In EverQuest this was possible due to the variance of the classes and available of areas to level in, allowing people to play an almost different game each time (at least content-wise); and the fact that you generally made in-game friends and wanted to keep playing with them at some point.  Most modern games don't see this because there is no variance (everyone starts in the same place), the classes aren't really varied enough because everyone can do everything to some extent, you can do everything solo, and getting to max level is relatively easy and not time-consuming.

    • 1315 posts
    April 28, 2020 11:15 AM PDT

    kelenin said:

    What do you consider endgame content?  The ability to do any content the game has to offer?  Or just giving you something to do once you are max level (at the end game).  If it's being able to do all content that is available, then I would have to say you are either wrong or wildly exagerating your estimates.  Sure, there are some people who only play a game if they beleive they'll have access to everything (and those are usually power-gamers anyway).  I'll also concede that everyone wants to better their characters, but not everyone believes they have to be the absolute best character with all best-in-slot of everything.  The only way a game like this is possible is to remove all challenge from it, because in order for casual players to enjoy it they must be able to do max content quickly and easily.

    If you just mean that there must be stuff to do at max-level to keep you occupied and allow you to still enjoy the game, then I agree.  Because regardless, if someone wants to play a character long enough they'll likely hit max level at some point.  That being said, in EverQuest there was a lot of people who didn't like being high level, they really enjoyed low level and ended up with a lot of characters in the 20-40 range before Kunark even came out.  Usually those are the more casual players who don't want to spend all the time getting that next level and would rather get their sense of accomplishment out of levelling up a new character.  In EverQuest this was possible due to the variance of the classes and available of areas to level in, allowing people to play an almost different game each time (at least content-wise); and the fact that you generally made in-game friends and wanted to keep playing with them at some point.  Most modern games don't see this because there is no variance (everyone starts in the same place), the classes aren't really varied enough because everyone can do everything to some extent, you can do everything solo, and getting to max level is relatively easy and not time-consuming.

    In this case I consider end game content to be content at the end of the leveling processes that is a challenge for characters with a full set of gear within 90% of pre raid BIS gear.  Basically the transition point where each improvement in power takes considerably more time which usually happens after you have achieved the relatively simple and unrestricted task of getting enough exp to hit max level.

    It’s a vague-ish concept that is hard to pinpoint exactly where high level leveling content ends and the beginning of endgame starts, usually they overlap a bit.  As far as how much of it I expect people will want to do vs what is available will entirely depend on what is available.  If there are only 2 raid zones then yes I would say 75% of current interested players will want to be able to complete it.  If it is say 16 raid zones with another 16 high challenge raid zones then no I don’t think most people will expect to do all of it.

    This is also where we get into the difference between single group endgame content, small raid, large raid, and Zerg Swarm raids.  Single group content will likely be on everyone’s radar where as large raid would require a higher commitment, zerg swarm world raid bosses will likely just be funny.  Without some form of instancing or phasing it is really hard to make single group endgame content that is actually challenging and cannot be trivialized simply by bringing a second group.  Its not impossible but usually includes smart triggers that will scale the encounters relative to the number of valid players in proximity of the raid trigger with negative consequences on the rewards if additional players join in.

    • 801 posts
    April 28, 2020 11:32 AM PDT

    There is some very negitive views here, and not taking into concideration that others feel differently. You can not close and end a conversation that brings people together. So without pointing out individuals do not respond if you can not take anything with a grain of salt. People have views, weither they are new generation views, or old school MMO views. Just because we are here supporting this project and not WOW and EQ anymore doesnt mean we want VR to do anything. We just like the different styles of game play. Be fair to others opinions, as negitive as you feel.

     

    Just saying, give it a rest, people have differences of opinions.

     

    I do not like wow, but i love EQ. I played both for many years. Thats my opinion, and i would wish for VR to make a EQ clone because it was an old fling...

    • 22 posts
    April 28, 2020 1:17 PM PDT

    Corpse runs were frustrating, but they were also incredible for making new friends, and building strong relationships.  Anyone remember fear wipes in the early days, and how it took another entire guild to get you out of the s**t?  For better or for worse, I'd like them left in :)

    • 346 posts
    April 28, 2020 2:09 PM PDT

    It's proven scientific fact that the good old days were in 1992 to 1998 and with December 1998 being the release of Baldur's Gate and Everquest Beta, I'd say while I agree, not everything within it was good, it most certainly was a reference period for all that was great that came after it.

    • 2756 posts
    April 29, 2020 4:46 AM PDT

    Trasak said:

    kelenin said:

    This goes entirely on the assumption that a majority of the population simply believes that in an MMORPG, there is only endgame content and nothing else matters.  That is how most MMORPGs are developed these days, but there are plenty of people who wish to "live" in a world, and not just log in every night to go kill a few bosses.  A lot of people want to just level up characters, play in different styles, meet people, etc.

    I have the feeling that there are also likely many people who only think of endgame content and don't think of the levelling, exploring and socal aspects as enjoyable, because they've never played a game that allowed or reinforced that.

    The “its about the Journey and not the destination” is a pie in the sky dream.  It is a worthy goal and the reason I favor logarithmic power growth by character level but even the people who claim they want the Journey still want their big crit numbers.  All stories must have a beginning, midpoint and end.  The same with any game or Journey.  If VR expects people to care more about the midgame than the end game then there needs to be a powerful reason to either not level deliberately or reincarnate/reroll endlessly. 

    I have not seen anything yet that leads me to believe that rerolling or staying at mid levels will be rewarded more than rushing to max level and staying there.  Until I do I think it is a safe assumption to that 75% of the people currently interested in Pantheon and (99.999% of people who play MMOs now) will view endgame content as their primary goal they are working towards.  There definitely doesn’t appear to be enough non adventure content for players to stay busy.  If only 0.01% of the player base at max level can experience endgame content then they will leave.

    Strongly disagree, Trasak. Kelenin has very valid points. Playing Everquest, I would get to 'high' level, get frustrated (and bored) with the night-after-night raiding politics and stress, and re-roll and re-play the game a different way. Pick a different class and/or race and explore different areas. Meet new people. It was much more fun. They produced enough new content to keep me doing that. Other 'improvements' made along the way turned me off, too, but that wasn't a problem with the model as a whole.

    "I have not seen anything yet that leads me to believe that rerolling or staying at mid levels will be rewarded more than rushing to max level"

    I think this statement contains the crux of why we disagree. What "reward" are you looking for? To me, there is little reward in the end-game. To me, the best of the game is the learning and mastering of your class. The exploring of your part of the world. The developing of a synergy with a group of friends on the same journey. To re-experience that (with enough differences to keep it interesting) is ideal.

    If the 'reward' you are looking for is 'power' or 'glory' then, yeah, I suppose max-level 'end-game' is where you want to be, but of course, will find it inevitably disappointing or at least get bored.

    It's like Dungeons and Dragons when you got to a point you could challenge demi-gods.  The end-game really is the end of the game.  It's over for that character.  No more challenges exists.  There's only so many spectacular god-fights you can enjoy as the same character.  You would retire that avatar and start another campaign.

    It is totally possible for Pantheon to make "the journey" be the focus. They simply need to produce expansions that are *horizontal* as much as - or more than - vertical. They need to avoid changing their vision through any mis-guided effort to 'keep things fresh' when people enjoy what's there. They need to provide not continually *greater* rewards, but instead *new experiences* for people that choose to start again.

    One of the things that has me so excited for Pantheon is that VR are making so many of the right 'noises' in this regard. They have talked about horizontal progression a lot. They have talked about encouraging re-play a lot. They have mentioned specific features like progeny and mentoring. They appear focused on, or at least emphasise, re-playability, where a lot of MMORPGs over the years have totally disregarded it and focused on end-game where they have assumed their players want to be.

    If they do it right, 'those players' can rush to 'end-game' and can repeat raids just like they want to. They can continue to moan about lack of content while they ignore 90% of it in their rush, just like they always do. As long as VR don't pander to them and make the game all about what that minority of speed/power gamers want, then Pantheon has a chance to be a world we can live in for a long time and not just a game we play for a while.

    I can't wait to try every race, every class and every zone and I hope that there will be enough such that, by the time I've done all that, reached max level and raided the big stuff a few times, there will be new races, classes and zones. Maybe there will be a max level bump and some high level stuff, but definitely there should be more low level stuff. As long as there is new stuff to experience, whether I get to explore those at level 1 or level 100, I don't care.

    This is not just an MMORPG thing, either, though 'progression' is a fundamental difference in RPGs. It's a thing in all fiction. People love a rags-to-riches story. Not a riches-to-greater-riches story or a repeated-attempts-to-get-the-same-riches-again-and-again story.

    To me, the "pie-in-the-sky" concept is the ever-expanding max-level concept. It is doomed to feel repetative and soulless. There's only so many times you can present the 'ultimate' experience and have it feel good. There's only so many times you can trash the previous 'best' content and expect people to value the current 'best'.


    This post was edited by disposalist at April 29, 2020 4:52 AM PDT
    • 1315 posts
    April 29, 2020 6:05 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    *lots of good stuff*

    I totally respect your opinion and mostly agree with it but I am coming at it from a different perspective. 

    I am definitely guilty of wanting to have a “matured character” as quickly as possible.  Depending on the game design this does not need to happen at the maximum level.  A “matured character” is one where you class has at least the first rank of all of its primary core class defining abilities.  When some of those are held off until maximum level then the only option is to push to max level.  Often hand in hand with levels to maturity there is also a functional gear component.  In WoW terms this would be a full set of blue gear equal level with the level your class reaches “maturity”.

    Under that category then endgame becomes “the period after which your character reaches maturity”.  The time a character spends at maturity is vastly longer than any time before it.  So rather than endgame content its really Mature Character Content (warning Will Robinson you are entering possible misunderstanding naming convention territory).

    This is where power growth by level really effects the amount of content that is intended for a specific level range.  In linear growth there is usually a + - 10% of level range where the content is neither trivial or impossible.  In exponential growth it is usually an even smaller window +-2 levels.

    Log growth on the other hand has two periods, the first period is starting to character maturity and the second is maturity onward.  Almost anything in the maturity category is impossible before you reach it and anything in the development period is trivial for a mature character (there will be some overlapping grey area). 

    The stickler here is that over a long period of time rather than over level linear, exponential and log growth all become log growth as characters reach max level and sit there for years.  Rather than spending a ton of time designing content for only the first 10% of a characters life why not design content mostly focused on the phase where characters will spend most of their time.  Expansions would then all be focused on matured characters to create more horizontal progression without needing to raise a level cap (raising the level cap is a failure of design in my opinion, basically admitting “our original math sucks so we need to push the bar to keep it interesting”).

    About the only way to make linear character growth by level content development efficient is to encourage replay (in series) or reroll (in parallel).  Rerolling will still suffer from the eventual log growth issue as even your 10th alt reaches max level and sits there.  So we are left with the need for some carrot to exist in order to encourage a player to permanently retire a matured character to start back from the beginning.  DDO had an interesting mechanic for it and is not a bad model to compare to.

    So TLDR:  Design content around the levels where characters spend most of their time, if its max level then most content should be at max level, if its cycling through levels then by all means distribute the content relative to the time spent at each level.

    • 2756 posts
    April 29, 2020 9:32 AM PDT

    Trasak said:

    disposalist said:

    *lots of good stuff*

    I totally respect your opinion and mostly agree with it but I am coming at it from a different perspective. 

    I am definitely guilty of wanting to have a “matured character” as quickly as possible.  Depending on the game design this does not need to happen at the maximum level.  A “matured character” is one where you class has at least the first rank of all of its primary core class defining abilities.  When some of those are held off until maximum level then the only option is to push to max level.  Often hand in hand with levels to maturity there is also a functional gear component.  In WoW terms this would be a full set of blue gear equal level with the level your class reaches “maturity”.

    Under that category then endgame becomes “the period after which your character reaches maturity”.  The time a character spends at maturity is vastly longer than any time before it.  So rather than endgame content its really Mature Character Content (warning Will Robinson you are entering possible misunderstanding naming convention territory).

    This is where power growth by level really effects the amount of content that is intended for a specific level range.  In linear growth there is usually a + - 10% of level range where the content is neither trivial or impossible.  In exponential growth it is usually an even smaller window +-2 levels.

    Log growth on the other hand has two periods, the first period is starting to character maturity and the second is maturity onward.  Almost anything in the maturity category is impossible before you reach it and anything in the development period is trivial for a mature character (there will be some overlapping grey area). 

    The stickler here is that over a long period of time rather than over level linear, exponential and log growth all become log growth as characters reach max level and sit there for years.  Rather than spending a ton of time designing content for only the first 10% of a characters life why not design content mostly focused on the phase where characters will spend most of their time.  Expansions would then all be focused on matured characters to create more horizontal progression without needing to raise a level cap (raising the level cap is a failure of design in my opinion, basically admitting “our original math sucks so we need to push the bar to keep it interesting”).

    About the only way to make linear character growth by level content development efficient is to encourage replay (in series) or reroll (in parallel).  Rerolling will still suffer from the eventual log growth issue as even your 10th alt reaches max level and sits there.  So we are left with the need for some carrot to exist in order to encourage a player to permanently retire a matured character to start back from the beginning.  DDO had an interesting mechanic for it and is not a bad model to compare to.

    So TLDR:  Design content around the levels where characters spend most of their time, if its max level then most content should be at max level, if its cycling through levels then by all means distribute the content relative to the time spent at each level.

    Understood. I think :) And largely agreed.

    I just hope that VR do not decide that end-game is the easiest place to assume players will want to end up and design according to that. It's what has been done in so many MMORPGs and totally turns me off, and, I think, most other people too. The majority of players are not end-game raid-loop types, but a lot of games seem to hold it up as the only thing to aspire to.

    I am hopeful, though, as what we've been hearing all along from VR is that they value 'the journey' and will make plenty of content alternatives and horizontal progression opportunities and things like raids will happen in various level ranges, etc, etc. All the right noises for end-game not being considered 'the goal' or even the focus.

    P.S. I totally appreciate your reasoned reply and interesting points. I often dread to click Send with a comment that could be considered critical of another's these days. Seems to result in arguments so often. Great to 'discuss' and not argue.


    This post was edited by disposalist at April 29, 2020 9:34 AM PDT
    • 1315 posts
    April 29, 2020 10:04 AM PDT

    @disposalist

    I am by nature and profession an optimizer. I optimize everything and I mean EVERYTHING, or at least I have the inclination too if not the follow through.  That is part of the reason I push to character maturity as quickly as possible.  After that I tend to be driven by challenges and achievements more so than bigger numbers.

    With a robust mentoring system and a well-designed challenge system one could rush to character maturity level to open all your options then mentor back down to do a lower level challenges or achievements.  Often the primary rewards for these are cosmetic or just plain silly. 

    Other than challenges and achievements another reason to reroll or mentor down would be purely for the enjoyment of discovery.  Sadly its already hard enough to create content fast enough to keep up with progression much less the rate of discovery which is much more rapid.  We will be lucky if we see 5 zones for each 5 level range at launch so discovering everything will really not take that long.

    The question I pose to you is; “What type of rewards do you expect from horizontal progression at levels below maximum?”

    No EXP, Gear of higher magnitude or cash as those are all vertical progression.

    Also to tie back to the OP, instancing some content can better both load balance available content when an unbalanced number of characters are clumped in the same level band as well as allow for scaling of content based on the users.  You don’t need to make 90% of your world be max level you just know 90% of your instances will be utilized at max level.  A challenge can be one of a more structured  nature of progressing targets rather than a test of patience and luck waiting for access to a spawn. The biggest advantage of instancing or controlled spawns though is allowing for large group encounters that you can do leisurely rather rushed before a different group comes in and snipes it.  Instances are nearly as old as MMOs so they are kinda old school anyway but fall into the nixed catagory with other QOL changes.

    P.S.   I have always enjoyed discussing topics with you and try my best in general to understand everyone else’s side before writing a reply.  Everyone’s ideas are valid and can contain a spark of brilliance that could enrich the project as a whole.  Even if the person in question is not the best a communicating their observations should be examined to see if compromises can be made or emphasizes shifted to accommodate multiple perspectives.  My wife is a stop and smell the Roses type player and there are times where it drives me nuts because I favor more intense play.  That doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with her play style its just different.


    This post was edited by Trasak at April 29, 2020 10:21 AM PDT
    • 9 posts
    April 29, 2020 10:42 AM PDT

    Vander said:

    This post was never about CR's. I only used CR's as an example to what I was saying about "old school" and not every thing from the good old days was good.

     

    Before we lost Brad. I know he said that VR was going with CR's but they are going to control them. To the best of my knowledge no details have been given to how VR will control CR's.   

    I'm not against death penalties or CR's to a point. I like the way WoW now does CR's. You die and respawn as a spirit unable to attack or be attack while having to make the run of shame back from the respawn point to the location of your corpse. With Pantheon going to be open world. That is a lot. Because that mob / boss your group wiped on is more than likely going to be gone by the time you make the run of shame back and loot your corpse and get set up again.I personally do not and will not go back to the way CR's got done in EQ. 

    I'm not going to fight through five levels of a dungeon naked while wiping many more times in the process to get my original corpse with all my gear.  That does NOT mean I want VR to water down the death penalty. I just don't want the death penalty to be insane.

    I take no issue with the lost of XP as long as the lost is within reason. If you take a lost of say eight hours worth of playing that is to much.

     

    Now we know CR's are going to be in the game. We do not know how they will handle CR's. Plus we are going to take a lost of XP when we die. I also think our gear is going to take a hit and we will have to repair. That is more than enough for having a meaningful death penalty.

    We do not need it to be the way it was in EQ & have to fight back to our corpse naked on top of all the other penalties from death. 

     

    I should have used crafting as my example in the original post. Please do not add crafting than ignore it and make it useless.

    I like all the feedback.   Stay safe.                              ( This was my view and feel free to agree or disagree with me. Let your voice be heard)             

     

     

    You keep saying "We do not need", alot of us want the harshness of CR's as has been stated in previous posts... it helps build community when you ask for help and meet new people.  Running as a ghost back to your corpse so you can restart back where you were within 15 minutes doesn't bring "engagement, or make the world feel alive".  It just makes it another gimic you deal with.  Some of us want the challenge of CR's, the engagement during a fight knowing that if you die it is going to be punishing.  It brings out the best in people when the alternative is so grim.  There is plenty of games as has been said before with the "quality of life" improvements you seek.... This may not be the game for you.  Not trying to sound like a jerk, just giving ya my opinion.  Take it as you wish.  Best wishes!

    • 1399 posts
    April 29, 2020 11:26 AM PDT

    Darkvirtue said:

    Vander said:

    This post was never about CR's. I only used CR's as an example to what I was saying about "old school" and not every thing from the good old days was good.

     

    Before we lost Brad. I know he said that VR was going with CR's but they are going to control them. To the best of my knowledge no details have been given to how VR will control CR's.   

    I'm not against death penalties or CR's to a point. I like the way WoW now does CR's. You die and respawn as a spirit unable to attack or be attack while having to make the run of shame back from the respawn point to the location of your corpse. With Pantheon going to be open world. That is a lot. Because that mob / boss your group wiped on is more than likely going to be gone by the time you make the run of shame back and loot your corpse and get set up again.I personally do not and will not go back to the way CR's got done in EQ. 

    I'm not going to fight through five levels of a dungeon naked while wiping many more times in the process to get my original corpse with all my gear.  That does NOT mean I want VR to water down the death penalty. I just don't want the death penalty to be insane.

    I take no issue with the lost of XP as long as the lost is within reason. If you take a lost of say eight hours worth of playing that is to much.

     

    Now we know CR's are going to be in the game. We do not know how they will handle CR's. Plus we are going to take a lost of XP when we die. I also think our gear is going to take a hit and we will have to repair. That is more than enough for having a meaningful death penalty.

    We do not need it to be the way it was in EQ & have to fight back to our corpse naked on top of all the other penalties from death. 

     

    I should have used crafting as my example in the original post. Please do not add crafting than ignore it and make it useless.

    I like all the feedback.   Stay safe.                              ( This was my view and feel free to agree or disagree with me. Let your voice be heard)             

     

     

    You keep saying "We do not need", alot of us want the harshness of CR's as has been stated in previous posts... it helps build community when you ask for help and meet new people.  Running as a ghost back to your corpse so you can restart back where you were within 15 minutes doesn't bring "engagement, or make the world feel alive".  It just makes it another gimic you deal with.  Some of us want the challenge of CR's, the engagement during a fight knowing that if you die it is going to be punishing.  It brings out the best in people when the alternative is so grim.  There is plenty of games as has been said before with the "quality of life" improvements you seek.... This may not be the game for you.  Not trying to sound like a jerk, just giving ya my opinion.  Take it as you wish.  Best wishes!

    Correct, I'm with you on that 100%.  it's even called DEAD.. you died, your no longer alive, your done progressing for the day (at the very LEAST!) is how I would like to see it 

    THAT is death hurting, not a bit of lost banked experiance (anything over deleveling is the same as just having some banked to pay for free easy deaths). while you get a free ride back to where you "died" thats just a little inconvieance, thats not DEAD.

    • 429 posts
    April 29, 2020 12:01 PM PDT

    Almost did not even want to reply . 

     I thought ( personal opinion ) that everything was good about the good ole day , Yes even dying in the ocean due to ship lag :) I have not a single bad memory . 

      Even playing on PVP servers and being corpsed camped .. Yep it happens . 

     Why you may wonder , well we have different out looks on our memories ( glass half full , empty , or perhaps it just a glass of water thats half full ) .

     I found each and every memories to be a learning expierence . Might not all be a box full of cherries but they each were juicy :P 

      I am all for difficulties /larger envoirements / not all classes should be equal lots of reasons .. but simple answer what does not kill you makes you stronger :)


    This post was edited by Shea at April 29, 2020 12:28 PM PDT