Stealth and Invisibility, or more importantly the detection of stealth and invis are going to be in PRotF, but the question is, to what extent will they be utilized. In EQ detection of invis/stealth was so essential on a PvP server that you couldn't play without having the ability to cast the see invis spell or have an item that granted see invis without being a punching bag. These items were incredibly valuable for obvious reasons in PvP, but pretty much useless for PvE.
With that said, my question/concern is how will the detection of stealth and invis work in PRotF - will it again be relatively useless in PvE - used for nothing more than convenience?
-Will they be considered the same like in EQ (where the same line of "see invisibility" buffs detected both stealth and invis)?
-Or will there be a separate stealth detection and see invisibility skill/spell that only work for the appropriate non-detection methods
--And if there are different skills/spells for stealth and invisibility, will that be further broken down into hide/sneak skill versus perception skill and Invis spell level source versus see invis source lvl?
Other games have made these distinctions applicable in PvE by having things like spirit/ghost NPC be "invisible" until they attack, or rogue-type NPCs that were "stealthed" and the appropriate skills/spells were required to detect them.
I hope PRotF has a distinction between Invisibility and Stealth and that they are implimented in PvE as to not make the detection skills/spells useless on a PvE server and priceless in PvP.
What are your thoughts on the detection of unseen entities?
I definitely think it would be cool if NPC's could also use stealth and invisibility. And yes, I think they are two different things. Would be kinda cool if your group is trying to travel to point A and one person in the party is like "Stop! Don't you guys see that bad guy hiding by that tree?!" And no one else sees it because it's stealthy. Or the group is moving to a new spot in a dungeon and a bad guy stabs a party member in the back...no one saw him because he was invisible. Neat.
As far as a spell being useful in pve and pvp...I'm indifferent. If they need to add a spell/ability that works in one part of the game I don't really mind if that's the only part of the game it's useful in.
It's tough to say. I've played a variety of different MMOs, and I usually play Rogue-archetypes.
I don't think there is a right or a wrong way to do it, but I think that tying stealth detection closely in with the Rogue class is something that I would like to see. I definitely agree that invisibility and stealth should be considered separate as far as detection abilities go.
If NPCs can stealth, it will add more desirability to the Rogue class. At the same time, it shouldn't be such a make or break deal that a Rogue becomes a mandatory class for a large portion of content.
Either way, I'm excited to see how it will work and this is an interesting content design question indeed.
@Liav - I would think that the Ranger would be a valued asset to a party if their tracking skill could be used to detect stealth or even invisible creatures that left tracks or scent; and as you said, the rogue would be perfect for being able to detect others that may be trying to hide but lack the level of skill that the rogue has.
Add: It could add a new level of challenges.
It's Hard to say, i mean technically in PvE, invis/stealth doesn't do anytihng to other players directly, i mean like the mechanic of invis/stealth is meant to be pvp/pve vs mobs, and no so much players, so i cn see what you mean by see invis being kind od useless in PvE, but to me if you want it to have meaning make mobs have Stealth/Invis on them to make it feel more like a buff than anything else.
Darch said: ... What are your thoughts on the detection of unseen entities?How I think it should be? There should be 4 ways to determine if an entity exists. heat/cold, sound, smell, and visibility. Creatures that are hidden visibily should be detectable if they are hotter or cooler than their surrounding area, if they're giving off a smell, and if they're making a sound while moving. There's a variety of effects and visual overlays, UI indicators, spells, buffs, consumables and similar that can be used for many of these detection methods.
I don't think they need to re-invent the wheel here. Stealth should be detectable in some way while outside of aggro range (with possible longer range detection for certain classes) and invis for mobs probably just shouldn't exist, being killed by undetectable creatures and losing experience/time is not good gameplay and neither is making see invis a hard requirement.
It would be interesting if different senses had different effects on invisibility/stealth detection and the mechanics were more sophisticated than in the past, but isn't that kinda just all wrapped up in the whole concept anyway?
In D&D your level had an effect on invisibility detection, didn't it? The concept of you being better at 'noticing' (with other senses or even pure intuition) was there in relative level - why bother developing a complex mechanic, when its effect is modeled fine by a simple one?
I don't doubt that some monsters will have better chance at detecting stealth and invis. The explanation might be because of a sense of smell or some such, but, to a certain extent: who cares? The point is, the devs designed this encounter to not be so easily effected by invisibility. That's the design.
Other encounters won't be so easily effected by blunt weapons. Or mind control. Or fire. That doesn't mean we need to develop better mechanics for 'dampness' or fire retardant skin and armor or whatever.
Iksar said:I don't think they need to re-invent the wheel here. Stealth should be detectable in some way while outside of aggro range (with possible longer range detection for certain classes) and invis for mobs probably just shouldn't exist, being killed by undetectable creatures and losing experience/time is not good gameplay and neither is making see invis a hard requirement.
On second thought, I agree with this. Stealth and invis mobs are dumb. Save it for pvp.
Liav said:Iksar said:I don't think they need to re-invent the wheel here. Stealth should be detectable in some way while outside of aggro range (with possible longer range detection for certain classes) and invis for mobs probably just shouldn't exist, being killed by undetectable creatures and losing experience/time is not good gameplay and neither is making see invis a hard requirement.
On second thought, I agree with this. Stealth and invis mobs are dumb. Save it for pvp.
WoW did invis and stealth mobs absolutely brilliantly. When a stealth NPC got close to you, you could hear a unique sound, and if facing the right direction, you could sometimes see them just in time to defend yourself; while invis mobs were just as brilliant, giving the warlock's "see invisibility" buff a use in dungeons like Dire Maul, where ghosts would be mingled in with some of your pulls but would be invisible... until they attacked (much like stealth). If you could see invis (had a warlock in your party) you were able to shackle undead as a priest, or banish it as a warlock... if you didn't have a warlock in your group, you just had to be on edge always expecting a ghost add here or there (which honestly made for a great dynamic).
Nothing was "permanently" invisible... that would be dumb.
edit: Some people may remember this sound - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cFj6T9lOtM