Vander said:Riahuf22 said:philo said:Where Philo responds to Disposialists about if the game is truly challenging than healers will probably just be healing in group settings.
I actually have to agree with this, usually unless if the spell that so happen to also be a debuff of some sort it's best that healer kinda stay healing, as usually when it comes to balance not only does dps classes have stronger nukes/DoTs they are usually more mana efficent as well.
Granted like I said before this could be wrong, but I only see this changing due to the debuffs or like a spell that when you hit the target, that target's target (aka hopefully the tank) get like a heal, or something in return, but this is the only situations that I see that would be acceptable for the cleric to nuke anything in a group setting.
And now I realized I quoted the wrong message, this was suppose to be where Philo replied the Disposialists and not Iksar, lol well anyway all the same.
You make some fair points. I remember clerics from EQ saying how they started to hate the class because all they did was heal and sit to regain mana. If any priest class can only heal and sit to regain mana. We are going to have a shortage of healers IMHO..
Well, we might have a shortage of Clerics, if they maintain that particular 'old school' feel. Shamans, though, will be extremely popular.
It's tricky for VR. We want healers to be healers, but we don't want them to be boring. We want 'old school' but we don't want what we consider dated and just plain bad features to be carried over just for nolstalgia's sake.
There will be lots of EQ clerics that will be more than pleased with 'just' having to heal and med, though. To be fair, they were the best healers and very valuable because of it.
It looks like Shamans are not boring - could even be too complex looking at some of those self- and group- synergies alongside the 'normal' pressures of healing, plus buffing and debuffing... Phew!
I hope clerics are a little more interesting than in EQ. A little more flexible. But there are plenty of other classes to play if VR want to go truly 'old school' with clerics and make them a healing power house at the cost of 'interestingness'.
To be honest, I doubt they will be as one-dimensional as in EQ though. Just look at how much more interesting Warriors are. A hotbar full of abilities just like a caster. Stances, banners and other battleground management alongside all the more usual warrior stuff. Awesome. Was never interested in warriors in EQ. They look great in Pantheon. From what we are seeing all the classes are going to be at least considered 'interesting' if not something we fancy ourselves.
disposalist said:Vander said:Riahuf22 said:philo said:Where Philo responds to Disposialists about if the game is truly challenging than healers will probably just be healing in group settings.
I actually have to agree with this, usually unless if the spell that so happen to also be a debuff of some sort it's best that healer kinda stay healing, as usually when it comes to balance not only does dps classes have stronger nukes/DoTs they are usually more mana efficent as well.
Granted like I said before this could be wrong, but I only see this changing due to the debuffs or like a spell that when you hit the target, that target's target (aka hopefully the tank) get like a heal, or something in return, but this is the only situations that I see that would be acceptable for the cleric to nuke anything in a group setting.
And now I realized I quoted the wrong message, this was suppose to be where Philo replied the Disposialists and not Iksar, lol well anyway all the same.
You make some fair points. I remember clerics from EQ saying how they started to hate the class because all they did was heal and sit to regain mana. If any priest class can only heal and sit to regain mana. We are going to have a shortage of healers IMHO..
Well, we might have a shortage of Clerics, if they maintain that particular 'old school' feel. Shamans, though, will be extremely popular.
It's tricky for VR. We want healers to be healers, but we don't want them to be boring. We want 'old school' but we don't want what we consider dated and just plain bad features to be carried over just for nolstalgia's sake.
There will be lots of EQ clerics that will be more than pleased with 'just' having to heal and med, though. To be fair, they were the best healers and very valuable because of it.
It looks like Shamans are not boring - could even be too complex looking at some of those self- and group- synergies alongside the 'normal' pressures of healing, plus buffing and debuffing... Phew!
I hope clerics are a little more interesting than in EQ. A little more flexible. But there are plenty of other classes to play if VR want to go truly 'old school' with clerics and make them a healing power house at the cost of 'interestingness'.
To be honest, I doubt they will be as one-dimensional as in EQ though. Just look at how much more interesting Warriors are. A hotbar full of abilities just like a caster. Stances, banners and other battleground management alongside all the more usual warrior stuff. Awesome. Was never interested in warriors in EQ. They look great in Pantheon. From what we are seeing all the classes are going to be at least considered 'interesting' if not something we fancy ourselves.
I do agree with you I do hope they become more than simply sit/med/heal/sit/med tandrem, I just hope the reason they aren't healing in combat directly relates to because it helps the grp, but not so much in a dps fashion, but more in line of being a different type of cleric. I guess maybe kind of like how some Chrolomancers are played in other games I guess. Again I do hope they have some kind of flare to make them enjoyable to be played, for one I wouldn't want to try to find a healer for extended periods of time simply do to them feeling dull to play.
philo said: People who play healers just have to like healing. They have to be someone who enjoys keeping the group alive and watching health bars. If a healer wants to do damage they should consider another class. I dont think VR has to do anything about it as some have mentioned.
Not even EQ had such a narrow healing role. The absolute closest EQ came was Clerics exclusively using CH on raids. A Druid or Shaman who only heals gets kicked out of any competent gameplay environment in EQ.
Liav said:philo said: People who play healers just have to like healing. They have to be someone who enjoys keeping the group alive and watching health bars. If a healer wants to do damage they should consider another class. I dont think VR has to do anything about it as some have mentioned.Not even EQ had such a narrow healing role. The absolute closest EQ came was Clerics exclusively using CH on raids. A Druid or Shaman who only heals gets kicked out of any competent gameplay environment in EQ.
Agreed but in the context of the conversation it was about clerics specifically. But not only that, it was about efficiency.
Dispo said: As someone who played a cleric to high level in EQ I look forward to having non-healing abilities in Pantheon that I might be allowed to use without group members complaining I am "wasting mana" and "slowing them down".
You basically weren't allowed to cast anything that wasn't the most efficient spells of your primary role at pain of severe consequences (like others 'tutting', 'huffing' and rolling their eyes at you)..
So if you are a druid or shaman and you are playing the role of a healer you will still be expected to be efficient if the content is challenging. Whether that is pure healing or slow/healing/debuffing etc, the point remains the same. People won't find it acceptable for their healer to be casting inefficient spells such as any damage spell as a cleric.
philo said:So if you are a druid or shaman and you are playing the role of a healer you will still be expected to be efficient if the content is challenging. Whether that is pure healing or slow/healing/debuffing etc, the point remains the same. People won't find it acceptable for their healer to be casting inefficient spells.
From what we are seeing, yes, people will expect Shamans to slow and debuff as well as heal.
I'm simply hoping that clerics get some variety like that. Maybe clerics will have stuns, roots, blinds, curses, damage shields, whatever that they will be expected to do as well as the standard various flavours of direct heals, because those abilities are just as effective, but in a different way, as the Shaman's slows and debuffs.
The point I was making is, nothing other than heal and med is what was expected of clerics in EQ because there was next-to-nothing else they did effectively in combat, never mind mana efficiently.
Maybe clerics could have a Battle Hymn they can chant while meleeing with a mace that returns mana to them?
Maybe they have a group damage shield they can maintain while they concentrate?
Maybe they have a short-term curse that causes an enemy's attacks to heal the target?
That was just off the top of my head. Timed burst damage invertion, channeled reflection, mana damage siphoning, etc. I'm sure there's a ton of lore-appropriate stuff in-keeping with the 'feel 'of the Cleric class that would make it much more interesting to play in group combat than just sit, stand, heal, sit, repeat.
disposalist said:From what we are seeing, yes, people will expect Shamans to slow and debuff as well as heal.
I'm simply hoping that clerics get some variety like that. Maybe clerics will have stuns, roots, blinds, curses, damage shields, whatever that they will be expected to do as well as the standard various flavours of direct heals, because those abilities are just as effective, but in a different way, as the Shaman's slows and debuffs.
The point I was making is, nothing other than heal and med is what was expected of clerics in EQ because there was next-to-nothing else they did effectively in combat, never mind mana efficiently.
Maybe clerics could have a Battle Hymn they can chant while meleeing with a mace that returns mana to them?
Maybe they have a group damage shield they can maintain while they concentrate?
Maybe they have a short-term curse that causes an enemy's attacks to heal the target?That was just off the top of my head. Timed burst damage invertion, channeled reflection, mana damage siphoning, etc. I'm sure there's a ton of lore-appropriate stuff in-keeping with the 'feel 'of the Cleric class that would make it much more interesting to play in group combat than just sit, stand, heal, sit, repeat.
Stuns are better done with a warrior, as they are up front and within melee range of the target. Roots are more for Shamans and Druids, Blinding effects and such are better done by rogues, as I'm sure that, like Shamans and Druids, It will be more cost effective to have them use those than a Cleric. Curses are usually left to the darker classes, such as Necro or possibly Dire Lord. Damage Shields are better suited to be cast by Paladins, as it's something that they would have to learn as part of their training.
As for the other suggestions, it seems like it would be hard for a Cleric to be able to focus on channeling the magic and mana through the hymn as they are distracted by being hit or attacking with any for of melee weapon. For the concentration thing, it isn't really all that great to do something else while concentrating on another...it could split your attention and possibly cause one to fail or even both to fail by the distraction of one another. I'm not trying to burst your bubble here, I'm just being realistic with what both old and newer games have done in terms of classes. It sucks that Clerics got the short end of it...and honestly it's quite sad, but even if VR changed the way a Cleric is played, it'll be the player base that will ultimately decide on what a Cleric should do...and unfortunately I see it being a repeat from the days of old. Even I have thought about playing Clerics and stuff, as I use to play one in D&D...but the MMO community and creators have just...I don't know how else to really put it without sounding rude but, dumbed it down to the point of being mindless (if I figure out better words I will definitely replace this with them lol)
I am curious as to what they will do with the Cleric, but considering history and both "old school" and "new school" players, they have unanimously blocked them out to that role of "no damage, only heals" They do have a chance to change that...but whether or not the players will change it is beyond me, and something I am kind of curious to see.
OCastitatisLilium said:disposalist said:From what we are seeing, yes, people will expect Shamans to slow and debuff as well as heal.
I'm simply hoping that clerics get some variety like that. Maybe clerics will have stuns, roots, blinds, curses, damage shields, whatever that they will be expected to do as well as the standard various flavours of direct heals, because those abilities are just as effective, but in a different way, as the Shaman's slows and debuffs.
The point I was making is, nothing other than heal and med is what was expected of clerics in EQ because there was next-to-nothing else they did effectively in combat, never mind mana efficiently.
Maybe clerics could have a Battle Hymn they can chant while meleeing with a mace that returns mana to them?
Maybe they have a group damage shield they can maintain while they concentrate?
Maybe they have a short-term curse that causes an enemy's attacks to heal the target?That was just off the top of my head. Timed burst damage invertion, channeled reflection, mana damage siphoning, etc. I'm sure there's a ton of lore-appropriate stuff in-keeping with the 'feel 'of the Cleric class that would make it much more interesting to play in group combat than just sit, stand, heal, sit, repeat.
Stuns are better done with a warrior, as they are up front and within melee range of the target. Roots are more for Shamans and Druids, Blinding effects and such are better done by rogues, as I'm sure that, like Shamans and Druids, It will be more cost effective to have them use those than a Cleric. Curses are usually left to the darker classes, such as Necro or possibly Dire Lord. Damage Shields are better suited to be cast by Paladins, as it's something that they would have to learn as part of their training.
As for the other suggestions, it seems like it would be hard for a Cleric to be able to focus on channeling the magic and mana through the hymn as they are distracted by being hit or attacking with any for of melee weapon. For the concentration thing, it isn't really all that great to do something else while concentrating on another...it could split your attention and possibly cause one to fail or even both to fail by the distraction of one another. I'm not trying to burst your bubble here, I'm just being realistic with what both old and newer games have done in terms of classes. It sucks that Clerics got the short end of it...and honestly it's quite sad, but even if VR changed the way a Cleric is played, it'll be the player base that will ultimately decide on what a Cleric should do...and unfortunately I see it being a repeat from the days of old. Even I have thought about playing Clerics and stuff, as I use to play one in D&D...but the MMO community and creators have just...I don't know how else to really put it without sounding rude but, dumbed it down to the point of being mindless (if I figure out better words I will definitely replace this with them lol)
I am curious as to what they will do with the Cleric, but considering history and both "old school" and "new school" players, they have unanimously blocked them out to that role of "no damage, only heals" They do have a chance to change that...but whether or not the players will change it is beyond me, and something I am kind of curious to see.
When I was playing a cleric in D&D (AD&D, mostly) I wore plate armor and was in the thick of melee bashing heads much more than I was casting spells. In EQ clerics wore plate and did have roots, stuns, blinds, and smites (though, yes, they were inneficient and innefective and weren't an emphasis, unfortunately).
I really don't know where this idea of clerics being a robe-wearing, near-pacifist character, came from, but being a battle-hymn screaming, head bashing, war-hardened, righteously-vengeful templar would be a true return to old-school clericking, not some meditating, dress-wearing, finger-waggler that does heals instead of fireballs.
"even if VR changed the way a Cleric is played, it'll be the player base that will ultimately decide on what a Cleric should do"
I disagree. As I said, if VR give the cleric effective stuns and roots and damage reversers and whatever as a part of their arsenal, much like slows and roots and debuffs are part of the Shaman's, then the cleric will be expected to use their arsenal. If clerics' spells prevented and diverted damage as much as healed it, it would be effectively the same thing.
You may well then get players shouting at you to "Get off your arse and smack some heads! We need your battle hymn for the buffs and your mana regain! Stop meditating you lazy git!", but I'd rather have people pushing me to do something interesting (and maybe risky) rather than pushing me to sit down and do nothing.
It's totally up to VR how the cleric plays. I'm hoping for something more interesting and exciting than, effectively, a pacifist magic-user.
disposalist said:From what we are seeing, yes, people will expect Shamans to slow and debuff as well as heal.
That is due to the shaman needing to Slow and Debuff just to be able to heal effectively. Slowing and Debuffing isn't an option, it's a requirement. Actually buffing is also a requirement. The melee must have haste, must have their stats buffed all so that the HoTs of the Shaman can keep up with incoming DPS.
Vandraad said:disposalist said:From what we are seeing, yes, people will expect Shamans to slow and debuff as well as heal.
That is due to the shaman needing to Slow and Debuff just to be able to heal effectively. Slowing and Debuffing isn't an option, it's a requirement. Actually buffing is also a requirement. The melee must have haste, must have their stats buffed all so that the HoTs of the Shaman can keep up with incoming DPS.
Sure and perhaps the cleric will be deisgned to need to stun, root, blind, damage reflection, or whatever else, to suppliment their direct heals and keep the group alive. As long as it's built into the class, then it can work.
It is a design choice (and a flavour choice). I'm just hoping they don't design clerics to direct heal and meditate and nothing else. The Shaman looks very interesting. The druid sounds very interesting. The cleric - actually I need to have another look at the class description to remind myself, but I'm hoping it will be interesting too.
It should be a requirement of every/any class to need to use all their skills effectively in challenging encounters (ignoring LAS for the moment...). How interesting, varied and tricky to use those skills *are*, is up to the devs.
You could easily give a Cleric a heal that in decription shines a bright light on them and blinds the target and lowers his ATK
You could also have a spell that while using an expensive heal that also damages the target and puts a debuff on him that could do anything like help the tank create more aggro due to appearing to be like a shiny ball of light(obviously would be better worded on why he would be able to create such aggro, I'm just shooting out an idea.)
Again i litterally did all of this and didnt break the lore of the class, or change any major functions of the class, it honestly quite simple to do, to think that Druids/Shamans have to be verstaile healers and clerics get to be so one dimensional and also a pen to paper healer in honestly a diservice to what could be a class that could be both a great healer and bring that little bit of something the other healers dont have so they dont just feel like a heal bot.
It looks like some of you are beating around the bush of what WOW did with their Disc Priest. With them, they put a shield on a player, and the damage they did healed the person with the shield for 50% of the damage done... Anyway, I agree that stand, heal, sit & meditate is exceptionally boring. If the content is extremely hard of course, that is what you are going to be doing a lot, but they need play options other than pure healing to augment the group. Not every pull is going to take 100% of the Clerics' attention for healing. Drop a well that spits out heals for 30 seconds, and all damage the cleric does adds to the heals. Holy fire, that burns the enemy and splashes the light damage out as a small aoe heal, holy shields that can reflect portions of the shield as it's eaten up, or provide mitigation (10% less damage from all sources),or damage heals with shields up... Redirecting life with overheating, or adding a shield that lasts 30 seconds on player with overheating that can stack up to 100% of the charters hit points... That was they could prep the fight or start overheating before a big AOE boss damage attack, buffs that share damage, or level the damage across the group (mob hits your warrior for 100, everyone in the party takes 20 damage) - promoting HoTs. They could be given pacify - lowering agro radius along with druids for pulling assistance. They could provide a buff that drastically drops agro from a player, or themselves... let that Rogue go crazy by spamming backstab as the fight starts before the tank gets agro. They could have a wipe protection spell like "encase" where a player is encased in crystal and drops all agro....
There is an unlimited number or creative options we have to keep healers unique and truly valuable to have in the party. If you don't have this - if your bard has enough passive healing to keep the party up with the content you have then why get a Cleric? The bard can also damage and bring so much more. Why bring a Cleric if a shaman healing is fine, and the shaman can also slow and throw in a good bit of DPS? The combat will gravitate toward the most effective way to clear the content that you are doing, not who does it best. Sometimes who does a specific role best is not who is best for the group.
Healers can be dynamic and fun to play while maintaining their originality. There should be a noticeable difference between a good healer who uses all their tools, and one that just "heals."
disposalist said:When I was playing a cleric in D&D (AD&D, mostly) I wore plate armor and was in the thick of melee bashing heads much more than I was casting spells. In EQ clerics wore plate and did have roots, stuns, blinds, and smites (though, yes, they were inneficient and innefective and weren't an emphasis, unfortunately).
I really don't know where this idea of clerics being a robe-wearing, near-pacifist character, came from, but being a battle-hymn screaming, head bashing, war-hardened, righteously-vengeful templar would be a true return to old-school clericking, not some meditating, dress-wearing, finger-waggler that does heals instead of fireballs.
"even if VR changed the way a Cleric is played, it'll be the player base that will ultimately decide on what a Cleric should do"
I disagree. As I said, if VR give the cleric effective stuns and roots and damage reversers and whatever as a part of their arsenal, much like slows and roots and debuffs are part of the Shaman's, then the cleric will be expected to use their arsenal. If clerics' spells prevented and diverted damage as much as healed it, it would be effectively the same thing.
You may well then get players shouting at you to "Get off your arse and smack some heads! We need your battle hymn for the buffs and your mana regain! Stop meditating you lazy git!", but I'd rather have people pushing me to do something interesting (and maybe risky) rather than pushing me to sit down and do nothing.
It's totally up to VR how the cleric plays. I'm hoping for something more interesting and exciting than, effectively, a pacifist magic-user.
Believe me, I know. Clerics in AD&D were fantastic. I loved my plate and I loved my morningstar I got to carry around and the HOTs I got...not to mention the extra strength I put into her just for said head-bashing and smacking of enemies around. With the right DM you can pretty much do anything, but anyways; The issue is, is that in EQ while the Cleric had those things, a Wizard and other classes did them better, so there was really no need for them to use them, I'll give you that; but what makes you think that it will be different in this game? Like I said in the post, just because VR gives the Cleric skills to use, and let’s assume they make it the same way as a D&D Cleric, then it will be up to the community really. Even if they have spells like that, people have been preconditioned to view the Cleric as nothing more than a robe-wearing, water balloon that has super heals. They will make the excuse that the Cleric is just for that, heals; and pretty much only take a cleric FOR heals. EQ started this trend off, and it's carried over across every MMO since. With how many years it's been going on, I would be, pleasantly mind you, shocked if the community just did a 180 on it all overnight. As for effective stuns and such, while it would be cool to see...I do feel that because of what, 20-30 years of Clerics being squishy in MMOs, players are going to really still lean towards them coming along to just do healing.
The problem is, you want every class to feel unique, which is hard if you don't limit some things and heighten other things about each class. Unfortunately, it's hard to do something like what D&D did in an MMO, because everyone plays a character class very differently in D&D and that would be near impossible to have just that unlimited of a choice in such a game. VR would HAVE to make sacrifices in the way classes are played, if anything just so classes stay feeling different as well as appealing. I hate to say it, believe me I do as I LOVED my cleric...before my cat threw up all over my character sheet...(always use a clear sheet protector if you have pets or young siblings LOL!) but there are some things you have to sacrifice, from all classes mind you, to have them staying unique and to be able to fit into the group oriented setting that this game is clearly going to have. Each class is going to need to be desirable or have very valid reasons to take along in a group...so some things get taken away from the classes in order to better fit that.
Brooks said:It looks like some of you are beating around the bush of what WOW did with their Disc Priest. With them, they put a shield on a player, and the damage they did healed the person with the shield for 50% of the damage done... Anyway, I agree that stand, heal, sit & meditate is exceptionally boring. If the content is extremely hard of course, that is what you are going to be doing a lot, but they need play options other than pure healing to augment the group. Not every pull is going to take 100% of the Clerics' attention for healing. Drop a well that spits out heals for 30 seconds, and all damage the cleric does adds to the heals. Holy fire, that burns the enemy and splashes the light damage out as a small aoe heal, holy shields that can reflect portions of the shield as it's eaten up, or provide mitigation (10% less damage from all sources),or damage heals with shields up... Redirecting life with overheating, or adding a shield that lasts 30 seconds on player with overheating that can stack up to 100% of the charters hit points... That was they could prep the fight or start overheating before a big AOE boss damage attack, buffs that share damage, or level the damage across the group (mob hits your warrior for 100, everyone in the party takes 20 damage) - promoting HoTs. They could be given pacify - lowering agro radius along with druids for pulling assistance. They could provide a buff that drastically drops agro from a player, or themselves... let that Rogue go crazy by spamming backstab as the fight starts before the tank gets agro. They could have a wipe protection spell like "encase" where a player is encased in crystal and drops all agro....
There is an unlimited number or creative options we have to keep healers unique and truly valuable to have in the party. If you don't have this - if your bard has enough passive healing to keep the party up with the content you have then why get a Cleric? The bard can also damage and bring so much more. Why bring a Cleric if a shaman healing is fine, and the shaman can also slow and throw in a good bit of DPS? The combat will gravitate toward the most effective way to clear the content that you are doing, not who does it best. Sometimes who does a specific role best is not who is best for the group.
Healers can be dynamic and fun to play while maintaining their originality. There should be a noticeable difference between a good healer who uses all their tools, and one that just "heals."
A bit confused on how you thought we we're pointing towards a Disc Priest in WoW. Unless if you were talking about ym Chloromancer approach, but i didnt mean their entire kit evolved around it, only one line of spells to do that, so not exactly the same.
All Dispositalist is actually asking for is to more than just heal and that's hit, in a shaman has time to use Slows/Debuff/Heal than Cleric can obviously have enough time to do things than just heal, they should be better at something than the shamans can do until than have Direct heals, honestly he isn't asking for much.
And he's right all the healers haft to have their thing that makes them interesting and fun, no one really enjoyed playing cleric in EQ not even on the TLP servers, they were hard to find and were only made to actually complete content as they we're the only healers that could heal through raid boss fights, but they were poorly mechanically done due to them having Complete Heal and being strong raid healers, So with Pantheon making all healers viable to heal raid content the last I heard, they need to simply said "fun." If they aren't fun than the class will suffer, especially when the shamans have a lot going on in their kit to adapt to different situations.
Brooks said:It looks like some of you are beating around the bush of what WOW did with their Disc Priest. With them, they put a shield on a player, and the damage they did healed the person with the shield for 50% of the damage done... Anyway, I agree that stand, heal, sit & meditate is exceptionally boring. If the content is extremely hard of course, that is what you are going to be doing a lot, but they need play options other than pure healing to augment the group. Not every pull is going to take 100% of the Clerics' attention for healing. Drop a well that spits out heals for 30 seconds, and all damage the cleric does adds to the heals. Holy fire, that burns the enemy and splashes the light damage out as a small aoe heal, holy shields that can reflect portions of the shield as it's eaten up, or provide mitigation (10% less damage from all sources),or damage heals with shields up... Redirecting life with overheating, or adding a shield that lasts 30 seconds on player with overheating that can stack up to 100% of the charters hit points... That was they could prep the fight or start overheating before a big AOE boss damage attack, buffs that share damage, or level the damage across the group (mob hits your warrior for 100, everyone in the party takes 20 damage) - promoting HoTs. They could be given pacify - lowering agro radius along with druids for pulling assistance. They could provide a buff that drastically drops agro from a player, or themselves... let that Rogue go crazy by spamming backstab as the fight starts before the tank gets agro. They could have a wipe protection spell like "encase" where a player is encased in crystal and drops all agro....
There is an unlimited number or creative options we have to keep healers unique and truly valuable to have in the party. If you don't have this - if your bard has enough passive healing to keep the party up with the content you have then why get a Cleric? The bard can also damage and bring so much more. Why bring a Cleric if a shaman healing is fine, and the shaman can also slow and throw in a good bit of DPS? The combat will gravitate toward the most effective way to clear the content that you are doing, not who does it best. Sometimes who does a specific role best is not who is best for the group.
Healers can be dynamic and fun to play while maintaining their originality. There should be a noticeable difference between a good healer who uses all their tools, and one that just "heals."
This is all well and good and is fantastic to have a Cleric as...but the first thing that's going to come out of people's mouths when something goes wrong; even if the group doesn't wipe, but barely makes it out, is "Why weren't you healing?" or " Why were you nuking or hitting ANHYTHING?! You should have been healing the group!!" I've seen it happen in too many groups across too many games. Granted half the time it's not the healers fault, but they will be reprimanded when stuff does go wrong for doing anything other than healing.
This is all well and good and is fantastic to have a Cleric as...but the first thing that's going to come out of people's mouths when something goes wrong; even if the group doesn't wipe, but barely makes it out, is "Why weren't you healing?" or " Why were you nuking or hitting ANHYTHING?! You should have been healing the group!!" I've seen it happen in too many groups across too many games. Granted half the time it's not the healers fault, but they will be reprimanded when stuff does go wrong for doing anything other than healing.
Always the complaint with every class for every role. Tank, why were you trying to do damage and not just spamming defensive's on cooldown. Healer, why were you wasting mana doing other things, or why were you slow healing, druid why did you pull so much, rogue why did you dps before the tank had agro.... there will always be good an bad players in any game. This is where skill comes in, this is why people make friends and guilds around competent players, there is a reason that raid invites go out to the players that give the most impact in the raid. This game will probably be like every other MMO out there. Groups are built around competence, tool kits, and the ability to get the best loot and most experienced in the quickest possible route. This will take healers being able to keep that flow going most efficiently. If a shaman has the toolkit to do the damage, and heal, while a Priest can only heal...... as long as the content can get done people will pick shaman 100% of the time. Speed/efficiency is key. Skilled players will be required to balance their toolkit with downtime with what is required to make the party successful. Unskilled players may be stuck with limited capabilities or usage of their toon.
A bit confused on how you thought we we're pointing towards a Disc Priest in WoW. Unless if you were talking about ym Chloromancer approach, but i didnt mean their entire kit evolved around it, only one line of spells to do that, so not exactly the same.
All Dispositalist is actually asking for is to more than just heal and that's hit, in a shaman has time to use Slows/Debuff/Heal than Cleric can obviously have enough time to do things than just heal, they should be better at something than the shamans can do until than have Direct heals, honestly he isn't asking for much.
And he's right all the healers haft to have their thing that makes them interesting and fun, no one really enjoyed playing cleric in EQ not even on the TLP servers, they were hard to find and were only made to actually complete content as they were the only healers that could heal through raid boss fights, but they were poorly mechanically done due to them having Complete Heal and being strong raid healers, So with Pantheon making all healers viable to heal raid content the last I heard, they need to simply said "fun." If they aren't fun than the class will suffer, especially when the shamans have a lot going on in their kit to adapt to different situations.
Disc priest in WoW also have all the regular heals, this is just one spell in their kit. They had Mind Vision to see what the mobs see, helping with pulls, they had AOE fear to break up bad pulls but sometimes also pulling more, they had mind control, etc etc etc... a large unique toolkit. That's what I'm saying here too.. Pantheon Clerics need more than just heal/sit drink/heal. They have time to do more, and they should have a wider toolkit that complements the class. And.. Dispositalist is right. I've been part of EQs raids where we have had 1-second delay heal chains on the tank doing complete heal, I've also been in WoW raids where they healers had more tools - making the class a lot more fun and unique to play.
One thing to keep in mind is that EQ took its ideas from games like Ultima Online and improved upon it. Everquest was revolutionary by really pulling in a lot of ideas that they had, and improving upon them. WoW did the same thing, they took a lot of the great aspect of EQ. WIth both EQ and WOW, classes had their primary roles, and they were expanded with toolsets, while EQ was primitive and limited, WOW was a lot more innovative with their toolsets. I see Pantheon as doing the same thing - taking ideas from previous games, including EQ, and WOW and improving upon them. We see this with their climbing etc... We should see unique toolsets that make each class desired in their own way. Pantheon needs to take great past ideas and improve upon them. Guild tools, movement, crafting, class design. Look at the guild management tools that were improved from EQ to WoW? Hopefully, Pantheon's takes WoW's and Improves upon that... they could, for example, add raid tracking or DKP to their roster, attendance numbers - an in guild loot council vote system for quick distribution. For something like this we would have to thank Ultima's guilds, then EQ's, then WoWs - which all improved upon the previous versions.
Brooks said:
A bit confused on how you thought we we're pointing towards a Disc Priest in WoW. Unless if you were talking about ym Chloromancer approach, but i didnt mean their entire kit evolved around it, only one line of spells to do that, so not exactly the same.
All Dispositalist is actually asking for is to more than just heal and that's hit, in a shaman has time to use Slows/Debuff/Heal than Cleric can obviously have enough time to do things than just heal, they should be better at something than the shamans can do until than have Direct heals, honestly he isn't asking for much.
And he's right all the healers haft to have their thing that makes them interesting and fun, no one really enjoyed playing cleric in EQ not even on the TLP servers, they were hard to find and were only made to actually complete content as they were the only healers that could heal through raid boss fights, but they were poorly mechanically done due to them having Complete Heal and being strong raid healers, So with Pantheon making all healers viable to heal raid content the last I heard, they need to simply said "fun." If they aren't fun than the class will suffer, especially when the shamans have a lot going on in their kit to adapt to different situations.
Disc priest in WoW also have all the regular heals, this is just one spell in their kit. They had Mind Vision to see what the mobs see, helping with pulls, they had AOE fear to break up bad pulls but sometimes also pulling more, they had mind control, etc etc etc... a large unique toolkit. That's what I'm saying here too.. Pantheon Clerics need more than just heal/sit drink/heal. They have time to do more, and they should have a wider toolkit that complements the class. And.. Dispositalist is right. I've been part of EQs raids where we have had 1-second delay heal chains on the tank doing complete heal, I've also been in WoW raids where they healers had more tools - making the class a lot more fun and unique to play.
One thing to keep in mind is that EQ took its ideas from games like Ultima Online and improved upon it. Everquest was revolutionary by really pulling in a lot of ideas that they had, and improving upon them. WoW did the same thing, they took a lot of the great aspect of EQ. WIth both EQ and WOW, classes had their primary roles, and they were expanded with toolsets, while EQ was primitive and limited, WOW was a lot more innovative with their toolsets. I see Pantheon as doing the same thing - taking ideas from previous games, including EQ, and WOW and improving upon them. We see this with their climbing etc... We should see unique toolsets that make each class desired in their own way.
Big thumbs up here, cant say it much better myself.
Yes, but the cleric's 'nuke' or 'melee' wouldn't be just direct damage or auto-attack. Yes, that might well be a 'waste' of the cleric's time or mana.
A cleric 'nuke' might be a Pillar of Holy Fire that burns enemies within the column area, but heals friendlies in and near it (both damage and healing could synergise with Wizards making enemies suceptable to fire).
A cleric 'melee' might be during a Battle Hymn that that means the melee damage to the enemy is returned as mana to him and healing to his friendly target. It could be more effective than meditating, at the risk of putting you in the midst of the fight. (Would be great to have a battle hymn that synergises with the Bard...)
No one would mind clerics using these abilities, because they would be designed to be, situationally, the most effective way to heal at the time *plus* a useful utility, buff, debuff, damage, or whatever effect.
They might well moan at the cleric saying "Why are you just sitting and healing?! You can do loads more to help!!". That would be welcome!
Players will just need to accept that the classes in Pantheon look to be much more interesting than in EQ. As I said, the warrior looks to be a ton more interesting and have a load more to do.
Actually, I'm sure they *will* be more interesting. I'm not sure why I'm arguing the case lol.
From the website: -
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/cleric/
Favor of the Order
Passive ability. Your successful melee attacks heal you for X% of the damage they deal. (I wish this would return mana too, so it was an alternative to sitting meditating)
Eko's Purifying Bolt
You release a bolt of purifying light into an Undead enemy, inflicting Divine damage. This ability then jumps to heal your Defensive target for an amount equal to the damage dealt. The healing effect will attempt to cure Poisons and Diseases on the affected ally
Vigilance
You mark a target group member for X duration. While marked, Y% of the damage taken by each member of your group will be converted into healing for the marked target.
Determined Strike
You strike your enemy with a sturdy blow, inflicting Physical damage plus additional Divine damage based on your Wisdom.
Searing Cudgel
A powerful melee attack that deals greater damage the longer you charge the attack before releasing. Undead targets will take additional Divine damage based on your Strength and Wisdom.
It clearly is intended that they do more than heal and sit, I just hope the abilities are effective enough such that they are actually used.
disposalist said:Yes, but the cleric's 'nuke' or 'melee' wouldn't be just direct damage or auto-attack. Yes, that might well be a 'waste' of the cleric's time or mana.
A cleric 'nuke' might be a Pillar of Holy Fire that burns enemies within the column area, but heals friendlies in and near it (both damage and healing could synergise with Wizards making enemies suceptable to fire).
A cleric 'melee' might be during a Battle Hymn that that means the melee damage to the enemy is returned as mana to him and healing to his friendly target. It could be more effective than meditating, at the risk of putting you in the midst of the fight. (Would be great to have a battle hymn that synergises with the Bard...)
No one would mind clerics using these abilities, because they would be designed to be, situationally, the most effective way to heal at the time *plus* a useful utility, buff, debuff, damage, or whatever effect.
They might well moan at the cleric saying "Why are you just sitting and healing?! You can do loads more to help!!". That would be welcome!
Players will just need to accept that the classes in Pantheon look to be much more interesting than in EQ. As I said, the warrior looks to be a ton more interesting and have a load more to do.
Actually, I'm sure they *will* be more interesting. I'm not sure why I'm arguing the case lol.
From the website: -
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/cleric/
Favor of the Order
Passive ability. Your successful melee attacks heal you for X% of the damage they deal. (I wish this would return mana too, so it was an alternative to sitting meditating)Eko's Purifying Bolt
You release a bolt of purifying light into an Undead enemy, inflicting Divine damage. This ability then jumps to heal your Defensive target for an amount equal to the damage dealt. The healing effect will attempt to cure Poisons and Diseases on the affected allyVigilance
You mark a target group member for X duration. While marked, Y% of the damage taken by each member of your group will be converted into healing for the marked target.Determined Strike
You strike your enemy with a sturdy blow, inflicting Physical damage plus additional Divine damage based on your Wisdom.Searing Cudgel
A powerful melee attack that deals greater damage the longer you charge the attack before releasing. Undead targets will take additional Divine damage based on your Strength and Wisdom.It clearly is intended that they do more than heal and sit, I just hope the abilities are effective enough such that they are actually used.
ah so pretty much what I was saying... and you too. I agree I wish it would return mana.
@Clerics
I allways loved the battle cleric builds D&D offered, making them powerhouse of combat for a limited amount of time. A design in this philosophy for the cleric would make me choose it as a preferred reroll (but not main !) because on how it makes the class gamechanging with the right spells but not as often to be competitive with any DPS class.