Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

More skill diversity maybe?

    • 32 posts
    April 3, 2020 4:37 AM PDT

    Am I the only one who is thinking it would be nice with a little more diversity on the skill system?

    Don't get me wrong, I think the skill system evolving with combos and such looks great but I would like to see a bit more diversity added within each skill. So that not all people playing the same char will have the same class in the end.

    Just a quick example:
    Say you have the Direlords Provoking Phantoms (the single target taunt)

    The first ability point could have an option of either "increase taunt per second by 1 point" or "increase essence gain from attacking target effected by Provoking Phantoms".

    The next ability point could have something different depending on what you chose for the first point or just two options regardless of what you chose for point 1.

    I think such a system would add a nice diversity to each class without changing the feel of the class itself - as Joppa said: "A warrior is a warrior is a warrior".

    • 801 posts
    April 3, 2020 4:48 AM PDT

    I agree that giving more choices to the players is always more engaging / fun.

    I also know that min/max-ers will crunch the numbers and declare the optimal way to play regardless (and that's not a bad thing).

    I don't want to burden Joppa with the thankless task of adding more skill options (and more coding time) which are interesting AND perfectly balanced.

    • 1707 posts
    April 3, 2020 5:21 AM PDT

    It seems to be an intentional design choice to make classes and their roles strong and distinct.

    Mastery already, by the fact you have the choice of what to enhance first (and whether to enhance yourself - yet to be detailed), does give some diversity, but without changing what a particular class effectively *is*.

    From what I'm hearing, you are very unlikely to max mastery until much later in the game, so most of the time, your mastery choices will be making you somewhat different.

    I get the desire, but I think it's a conscious decision to make class identity and interdependence as robust as possible and allowing specialisations and builds and that kind of thing can only dilute that or at least make it much harder to do.

    • 147 posts
    April 3, 2020 3:02 PM PDT
    I like increased options and customization, but too much of it can also be paralyzing, especially if it makes a big difference. I don't want a million choices for things that can gimp my character, because I don't want to feel like I need hours researching every choice. The choices need to either be mostly flavorful or clearly explained in game.
    • 132 posts
    April 3, 2020 7:25 PM PDT

    They aren't going with talent trees or specialisations.

    The problem with those systems is that they usually provide an illusion of choice or a false choice or a choice that becomes an overall negative for a player.

    The reason for this is that the playerbase will min/max stuff and they will decide what spec line tanks should go and DPS should go and healers should go - then people will have to have specialised that way to get into raids or dungeon runs or even regular groups.

    So then you didn't actually have any choice anyway because in order to create maximum effectiveness the vocal minority will say you have to play this way, some will become toxic about it and overall it will just create a negative experience for most people.

    At that point if you've specialised another way for your own personal choices then you will potentially be barred from certain content or guilds by the playerbase.

     

    The mastery system is better, it's a blending of specialisation systems and AA systems.

    • 36 posts
    April 3, 2020 8:33 PM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    They aren't going with talent trees or specialisations.

    The problem with those systems is that they usually provide an illusion of choice or a false choice or a choice that becomes an overall negative for a player.

    The reason for this is that the playerbase will min/max stuff and they will decide what spec line tanks should go and DPS should go and healers should go - then people will have to have specialised that way to get into raids or dungeon runs or even regular groups.

    So then you didn't actually have any choice anyway because in order to create maximum effectiveness the vocal minority will say you have to play this way, some will become toxic about it and overall it will just create a negative experience for most people.

    At that point if you've specialised another way for your own personal choices then you will potentially be barred from certain content or guilds by the playerbase.

     

    The mastery system is better, it's a blending of specialisation systems and AA systems.

     

    If, and i think they are, quite good at balancing classes, rolls etc. Then i would think that an AA system that allows for true customization could be done in a way that allows for at least 2 if not 3 viable "sub rolls" for each class. Such that if done right, each choice would bring elements to their game that would be welcome in groups/raids.

    In general im for as much player customization and idividual decision making as possible. It is a second world after all. 

    Trust your players and allowing for emergent gameplay.

     

    • 132 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:02 PM PDT

    The history of every MMO with specialisations / talent trees tells us that people will min/max and post the best spec and therefore necessary spec online. It will be demanded, whether for PvE or PvP.

    Right now in various MMOs people demand gearscores, specialisation links, certain builds for their professions or classes in order to be allowed to join PvE dungeons, PvE raids or PvP arenas.

    If you don't have it, you get kicked.

     

    Emergent gameplay can come from the interesting ways players use their abilities or inter-class synergy. Pantheon doesn't need talent trees or specialisation. It's being designed without it, requesting it from the devs over and over is futile.

    Let Pantheon be designed as Pantheon.

    • 3380 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:15 PM PDT

    The LAS construct is basically another take on specialization.  As was discussed in the most recent stream, you can have two shamans in the same group who each function differently.  One can specialize in healing while the other specializes in damage or debuffing.  The same Min/Max stuff that happens in other MMO's will happen in Pantheon as well.  Every hotbar setup will be broken down and analyzed.  Mastery progression will be broken down and analyzed.  Race/Class combos will be broken down and analyzed.  Gear will be broken down and analyzed.  Zones and quests will be broken down and analyzed for various efficiency metrics.  There is no way to prevent any of this.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 3, 2020 9:17 PM PDT
    • 36 posts
    April 3, 2020 10:26 PM PDT

    If you don't allow for any player controlled customization, you will Still wind up with Min/Maxing, its just the developers who will be setting up all the classes as "pre-Min/Maxed" in essence.

    Its unavoidable either way as previously noted. But i just personally like more diversity and uniqueness out there in a big open virtual world. Nither direction is perfect of course.

    • 132 posts
    April 3, 2020 10:54 PM PDT

    lotuss79 said:

    If you don't allow for any player controlled customization, you will Still wind up with Min/Maxing, its just the developers who will be setting up all the classes as "pre-Min/Maxed" in essence.

    Its unavoidable either way as previously noted. But i just personally like more diversity and uniqueness out there in a big open virtual world. Nither direction is perfect of course.

    Perhaps one day we may have this.

    But based upon the small size of the team at VR, they need to stick to key, streamlined game design tenents, mechanics and systems in my opinion.

    They don't have the manpower to develop 2 option paths for every ability and balance hundreds or over a thousand separate abilities and spells.

    Not within a reasonable amount of time anyway.

    • 34 posts
    April 4, 2020 3:06 AM PDT

    Giving that choice to the player would erase the idea "a cleric, is a cleric, is a cleric" so I don't belive we'll see that form of customization.

    • 169 posts
    April 4, 2020 2:42 PM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    The history of every MMO with specialisations / talent trees tells us that people will min/max and post the best spec and therefore necessary spec online. It will be demanded, whether for PvE or PvP.

    Right now in various MMOs people demand gearscores, specialisation links, certain builds for their professions or classes in order to be allowed to join PvE dungeons, PvE raids or PvP arenas.

    If you don't have it, you get kicked.

     

    Emergent gameplay can come from the interesting ways players use their abilities or inter-class synergy. Pantheon doesn't need talent trees or specialisation. It's being designed without it, requesting it from the devs over and over is futile.

    Let Pantheon be designed as Pantheon.

    I do agree with you. I don't want to see players pushed into a build that is required for all content, let players play to what they are good at, but also give them options to work on what they lack.the proidgy system is a good for that to work on what your last character lacked and to build on making the next character better, more rounded class.


    This post was edited by Oldwargoat39 at April 4, 2020 5:02 PM PDT
    • 147 posts
    April 5, 2020 9:31 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    The reason for this is that the playerbase will min/max stuff and they will decide what spec line tanks should go and DPS should go and healers should go - then people will have to have specialised that way to get into raids or dungeon runs or even regular groups.

    So then you didn't actually have any choice anyway because in order to create maximum effectiveness the vocal minority will say you have to play this way, some will become toxic about it and overall it will just create a negative experience for most people.

    Not everyone is as toxic as you describe, but that element does exist.

    The easiest way to minimize that level of min/max 'enforcement' would be to design a sliding scale.  Each option has a range it enhances, and the fewer people who chose an option, the stronger it enhances, while the more people who choose an option, the less it enhances (the value can be calculated every time the server is rebooted).  The different choices would then come to a rough equalibrium.

    I really want the ability to customize my powers, but I think this should wait until after launch.

     

    • 32 posts
    April 5, 2020 3:14 PM PDT

    Personally I don't think the whole debate about min/max matters at all. There will be people who calculate the best builds according to X, Y and Z, just as there are players who pick a race for the sole purpose that it will be the best for the class they will play. But to assume this is the majority or that these players will be defining the standard for skill options that other players have to follow in order to participate in guilds or groups - That is a leap of imagination.

    When I played EQ2, I played in a guild that was raiding 2 afternoons a week for about 3 hours at each raid. I got to max level and I got my epic and all that stuff, having tons of fun with this more casual game style. Now there were people in the guild who was all about maxing out with AA combinations and that stuff and I also read some of it from min/mixers on the web to help me try new builds with my character - but I did not follow these "instructions" to the letter, and neither did a lot of my guildmates back then.

    On top of that, I have never heard about, or had anyone tell me that I could not join a group or raid because I had the wrong AA combination or anything similar.

    If the dev's stick with the skills and upgrades as we see now, I hope we will see more room for customization in the mastery system. Does anyone know if this system has been revealed in more detail anywhere yet?

    • 581 posts
    April 5, 2020 5:41 PM PDT

    Nusser said:

    Personally I don't think the whole debate about min/max matters at all. There will be people who calculate the best builds according to X, Y and Z, just as there are players who pick a race for the sole purpose that it will be the best for the class they will play. But to assume this is the majority or that these players will be defining the standard for skill options that other players have to follow in order to participate in guilds or groups - That is a leap of imagination.

    I totally agree with that. Yes they will min/max. If that's how they like to play the game, I'm fine with it. When a bunch of them form a guild, I'm fine if they don't allow in players who don't min/max. There's room enough for everyone to play as they like.

     

    • 242 posts
    April 5, 2020 7:03 PM PDT

    I'm going to be blunt more skill diversity is great. but the overall goal is to make classes feel like that class when all is said and done. I really think there should be different playstyle amongst people of the same class but I don't want to see a specialization system emerge like that of wow. I feel like adding multiple mutations to the majority of spells would do just that and classes would lose their sense of personality in the process.