Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Questions and Feedback after April 2 dev stream

    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 11:15 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    It applies equally to anyone in north america too, if the GCD is 0.5 seconds (500ms) and you factor in even 100ms of latency (not atypical) and human reaction time of 250ms.  That's at 850ms consumed in a 1000ms window, worst case.  Fun?  Not really.  It essentially means you can't react "normally", but rather, you have to be anticipating every keypress.  And to Vandraads point, then you're just playing the UI, not the game.  There's nothing wrong with being efficient, but when the design forces you to predict the future, that's not ideal.

    Far better to err on the side of caution than ride the knife of frustration, for mechanics like this, if your intended audience is the players seeking a spiritual successor to EQ, old school gameplay, slow paced MMO combat, and/or non-twich gameplay, and/or non-action-MMO gameplay.

    4 secs window base

    gcd factors at the beginning of the cast :O and doesn't add time to the cast, just merely a penality if i decided cancel my current spell to cast something else

    the human reaction can be prepped during the cast of 1.5 secs of headwinds

    so it's latency(i agree with) 3.9sec window and the time it takes to cast the follow up spell assuming it's 1.5 sec cast, is a 2.4sec window

     

    i'm willing to bet though that gcd applies after for instant casts.

    https://youtu.be/s-VEt4ReDSk?t=2295

    there i timestamp :D


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at April 8, 2020 11:20 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    April 8, 2020 11:45 AM PDT

    Great.. I agree. 4 seconds is a great minimum. o.O

    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 12:19 PM PDT
    What about oxygenated enriched winds mastery level 3
    Increases all fire damage taken by 1000%

    1.5 cast
    1 sec window?
    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 12:36 PM PDT
    30 sec cool down?
    • 1921 posts
    April 8, 2020 12:43 PM PDT

    A status-exploiting player trying to exploit a group-applied status uses an ability at the exact moment the effect is applied on a target.  The ability the status-exploiting player uses is instant-cast. 
    The GCD is applied.  500ms of the window have been consumed by the GCD, because during it, no other ability may be cast by the status-exploiting player.
    Then, human reaction time. +250ms.
    Then, round-trip-time. +100ms.
    The player has 150ms of forgiveness on their response.  That's roughly the time it takes to press a button, twice, as quickly as you can (on a stopwatch).

    I don't think that's enough time.  YMMV. :)

    As I mentiond previously, this isn't the place to be screwing around, for developers.  This isn't a place where you want to be on the line, or near the line, or on the knife edge or near the knife edge.
    Set a minimum of 4 seconds for all status effects and leave it alone.  Everyone will be happier.

    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 1:18 PM PDT
    But I can queue spam cast the follow up button as the headwinds is casting to remove the delay :I
    Or if I wanted to sync up with a wizard casting a 5 sec super fireball, they can communicate for low risk of 1 sec, high execution with great reward
    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 1:29 PM PDT
    I might be wording this wrong....
    Input isn’t affected by gcd
    Many pvpers preinput(at high skill lvl) or spam input to compensate for latency and gcd?
    Ehh imma go back to self isolating again >.>
    • 316 posts
    April 8, 2020 2:25 PM PDT

    Another thing to monitor about status effects is how obligatory they become in normal grouping. I wouldn't want to feel like I'd need to execute the same ability every time this status effect appears, or otherwise my group will become annoyed. That can create some unneeded tension. Maybe these abilities would make more of a difference on boss-level enemies but somehow not be so determinative on regular mobs. I also think 5 seconds may be a good base duration to give an extra second for casting time, as stellarmind pointed out - but that'll all work out in testing. All this stuff really just needs mass feedback in-game. It could very well be that not synergizing on normal enemies is really no problem at all - or that synergizing all the time is actually really fun, and we'll want to do it as often as possible.

    • 62 posts
    April 8, 2020 2:49 PM PDT

    @stellarmind Do you understand math and timing at all? You literally contradict yourself multiple times in your posts. In one reply, you acknowledge latency and human response and pull a number of 3.5 sec out of thin air. "Factor in lag with decent internet is 3.5secs." Then you propose a spell with a 1 sec window in another response. "What about oxygenated enriched winds mastery level 3, Increases all fire damage taken by 1000%, 1.5 cast, 1 sec window?"

    Tell me in what world or space time continuum you can have that scenario? And if you don't think sub 4 sec is twitch gameplay, then I can't help you there either. The state should stay open until someone casts a spell to take advantage of the benefit and then it's consumed. That type of flavor would fit much better into the slower/tactical gameplay we've been told about for years.

    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 3:06 PM PDT
    Ya 3.5 sec is the window to take advantage of the state of being if one factors lag and reaction time.
    The gap of latency and human reaction can be compensated by preemptive inputs and good communication and execution
    The shaman can say casting headwinds in 2, 1....
    If the wizard has a big nuke that has a 2.5 sec cast time , he can precast it at 1.5 secs (1.6 if u want to be safe) shaman count then buffer a instant cast fire spell

    Teamwork! Skill! Communication! Rawr!
    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 3:09 PM PDT
    To clarify, I’m okay with the 4 sec window
    I would like the mastery system to promote mastery of the ability with what mastery means: high execution high reward
    • 62 posts
    April 8, 2020 3:50 PM PDT

    No, 3.5 seconds is not the window you have. That means you are only allowing 0.5 sec for latency and reaction? LOL give me a break. You're also assuming everyone is going to be on Discord prepping the human factor ahead of time. That might be true for guild groups or friends/family playing together, but for your average PUG, no way. I know at least a handful of supporters who are actually deaf. So they will have no audible prep beforehand, it will have to be all visual queues. I think 4 sec is most definitely twitch play when you factor in everything. I'm not a fan of it at all, but if I had to put a number on it, I'd prefer it was closer to 10 seconds. That would not be overly long, but would give enough time to factor in the many different scenarios for which people play under. Your 4 sec window where everyone is pre-prepped is closer to a pipe dream than reality.

    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 4:11 PM PDT
    3.5 secs is. What I chose to cast and how fast I can press it is the tax(factoring latency and human limitations)
    If I press an instant cast boom 3.2 is time leftover add gcd in 1.7secs
    If I cast a 1.5sec spell, 1.7secs is my time leftover

    Number crunch boys are going to say cast a 3 sec spell and spam an instant cast to take advantage of the window
    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 4:13 PM PDT
    Now players other than the shaman can time two 3sec cast followed by the instant cast with a 4 sec window.
    • 62 posts
    April 8, 2020 4:25 PM PDT

    Are you actually going to address what I posted or just keep pulling numbers out of thin air?

    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 4:33 PM PDT

    well if u want me to address it, okay.  there's already a skill called headwinds that has a 4 sec window... so my pipe dream is a reality?

    so if i 'react' include latency for an instant cast spell, i have 3.5 secs to cast it.

     

    if i want to go for big boy 3 sec cast time spell then i only have a 1 sec window to cast it.

     

    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 4:34 PM PDT

    i'll even post the time stamp again

    https://youtu.be/s-VEt4ReDSk?t=2295

    • 2419 posts
    April 8, 2020 4:39 PM PDT

    Who else is thinking that the Shaman wont be the only class that has such triggers?  They might not be called 'states', but conceivable there could be one (or two) for every class. I can't see VR giving this to just 1 class.   What you end up with a rather large spiderweb of triggers with people spamming the **** out of them then getting pissed when they get ignored.

    Really, if they insist on having these things, make it a trigger that stays open until the appropriate class responds..no matter the delay.  The trigger then ends and you can start a whole new one. This way if you really want to spam this stuff you can, but if you can't (or won't or just do not like dealing with such fast reaction times) you can take a more leisurely approach.

    • 429 posts
    April 8, 2020 4:39 PM PDT

    Personal opinion ( I too feel it straying from slow paced old Eq type playstyle ) .  I understand they want more people to play it , but most of us old schoolers are just that old :P . don't want to hinder the future players , but the best played times are long lasting buffs to get you where your going ( meeting with friends ,guilds or even out foraging ). game play that had meaning with debuffs ( not seconds but mins ) and buffs . as for latency I live in BFE :) .  I have nothing to say whether its good or bad till I test it for myself ... I am sure we all stand on one side or another , but till we get a chance to test it out .. its all mute !

    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 4:46 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Who else is thinking that the Shaman wont be the only class that has such triggers?  They might not be called 'states', but conceivable there could be one (or two) for every class. I can't see VR giving this to just 1 class.   What you end up with a rather large spiderweb of triggers with people spamming the **** out of them then getting pissed when they get ignored.

    Really, if they insist on having these things, make it a trigger that stays open until the appropriate class responds..no matter the delay.  The trigger then ends and you can start a whole new one. This way if you really want to spam this stuff you can, but if you can't (or won't or just do not like dealing with such fast reaction times) you can take a more leisurely approach.

    actually i'm okay if shamans are the only class that has this built in.  this is suppose to be their utility speciality.  also having a 'charges' for state isn't such a bad idea either.

    so like 10 secs, but only 3 fire spells can be casted before the headwinds extinguish is nice for those that may not want something so execution heavy like i'm suggesting.  that could be mastery rank 1 :o


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at April 8, 2020 4:48 PM PDT
    • 62 posts
    April 8, 2020 4:51 PM PDT

    Stellarmind, you didn't address any of the situations I brought up. You are living inside some dreamland and obviously can't comprehend there will be other situations than your own personal one. Did you address those not on voice comms to pre-prep the human reaction time? Did you address those who are deaf and not able to receive an audible cue even if they wanted to? Did you address those living overseas and having higher latency? Did you adddress how this will affect PUGS and not well oiled guild groups? Did you address how you proposed a spell with only a 1 sec window in relation to all of this? Did you address how Ben knew what he was supposed to be doing as the producer on a planned stream and still messed it up multiple times himself?

    I literally see nothing in regards to any of this. I'm clearing wasting my time/breath trying to explain this to you. Enjoy your League of Pantheon Legends Fortnight group bro.

    • 1921 posts
    April 8, 2020 4:55 PM PDT

    Vandraad said:Really, if they insist on having these things, make it a trigger that stays open until the appropriate class responds..no matter the delay.  The trigger then ends and you can start a whole new one. This way if you really want to spam this stuff you can, but if you can't (or won't or just do not like dealing with such fast reaction times) you can take a more leisurely approach.

    Correct, that would be a superior implementation, as demonstrated by history, logic, and math.
    Even better if the class/role that applies the status effects to be exploited can stack them, so everyone can perform their role, and not feel an onerous or punitive burden to participate (badly) when it would be objectively negative for the goals of the group.  Then, when it's appropriate, and not during a punitively small window, those status states or effects can be exploited.

    A good example is forcing healers to not heal to create, apply, or exploit a status effect or chain, when they really really REALLY need to heal, right now. :)
    Similarly, forcing DPS roles to not damage a target just to apply a status effect, or having tanks reduce threat, etc.  Illogical concepts like that have no place in conjunction with a system like this, so hopefully they've learned those lessons from history and other games that failed in the same way.

    • 1428 posts
    April 8, 2020 5:03 PM PDT

    Mandalorian2K said:

    Stellarmind, you didn't address any of the situations I brought up. You are living inside some dreamland and obviously can't comprehend there will be other situations than your own personal one. Did you address those not on voice comms to pre-prep the human reaction time? Did you address those who are deaf and not able to receive an audible cue even if they wanted to? Did you address those living overseas and having higher latency? Did you adddress how this will affect PUGS and not well oiled guild groups? Did you address how you proposed a spell with only a 1 sec window in relation to all of this? Did you address how Ben knew what he was supposed to be doing as the producer on a planned stream and still messed it up multiple times himself?

    I literally see nothing in regards to any of this. I'm clearing wasting my time/breath trying to explain this to you. Enjoy your League of Pantheon Legends Fortnight group bro.

    yikes with the personal attacks :o

    voice comms aren't needed, but oddly enough, to get into a serious raid group it's required.

    it's not like you have to take headwinds.  it's optional for those who can make more out of it.  so don't take it if i can't take advantage of what it brings.  that's the tradeoff.

     

    so why are you even attacking me? if league of legends is still kicking, isn't that something noteworthy?  isn't there something to take from fortnite(which alot of young kids love)to make a more successful pantheon release?

    • 945 posts
    April 8, 2020 5:08 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Nephele said:

    Iksar said:

    Nephele said:

    - Overall I like the way it is working but I feel like there needs to be something that allows for diversity within characters of the same class at max level/mastery, above and beyond LAS choices. This does not mean a specialization system per se - but players should have the opportunity to develop distinct styles and should be rewarded for that to some extent.

    Hard disagree on that. Not sure what that would be other than specialization, but I am entirely over that kind of thing. I want a return to knowing exactly what any given class will bring to the table without having to wade through "specs" or other distinctions that may alter their gameplay. 

    Can you elaborate on the reasons for your frustrations?  This isn't me needling you - I would honestly like to understand your point of view better.

    I think if players want to stand out against others within the same class they should do so with by becoming skilled and friendly, making their own reputation as good in every respect.

    Splitting classes in any meaningful way has rarely if ever led to anything more than the illusion of choice, the objectively best option and the lesser option(s).

    I don't think diversity for the sake of itself is a good thing for classes and what they can do, and it dilutes class identity. If I pick a monk I want to be a monk and all that class encompasses, not an X monk or a Y monk. At the base of it with no other factors, when being considered for groups/encounters I want to have equal consideration next to any other monk. Likewise I want to be able to pick any given class for a group and know exactly what they bring in terms of abilities/spells, that they bring the full class to the table. 

    This was well said @iksar, and I agree.  But I think that the mastery system will make our argument mute because every character has the choice to master the abilities they choose.  i.e. One shaman may choose to put mastery points into healing while another (less experienced player) may put their mastery points all into DPS... both Shaman, but one will be a far superior healer than the other.  

    • 2419 posts
    April 8, 2020 5:22 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    But I think that the mastery system will make our argument mute because every character has the choice to master the abilities they choose.  i.e. One shaman may choose to put mastery points into healing while another (less experienced player) may put their mastery points all into DPS... both Shaman, but one will be a far superior healer than the other.  

    That will only be true for the early portion of the game.  Unless VR implements a mechanic that directly prohibts you from mastering all your spells/abilities to the 3rd level, sooner than later every class will have every spell fully upgraded. It is inevitable.  I originally thought that VR would take that route that if the ability to earn points ended once you hit 50.  There would be only so many points you could earn and that total would be less than the total number of point slots you had. But, with the inclulsion of the shard/crystal approach, earning ability points is now unlimited.