Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Questions and Feedback after April 2 dev stream

    • 1605 posts
    April 2, 2020 7:09 PM PDT

    The stream covered shaman abilities, the mastery system, combat states and synergy, as well as a lot of mechanical info about how effects work during combat.  Strongly recommend everyone go view it if they have not already.  It should be up on YouTube relatively soon.

    Here are some questions and feedback I walked away from the stream with.  I am SURE that I missed some things so I hope others will contribute their questions and feedback in this thread as well.

    Shaman:

    - Based on explanation in the stream, it sounds like shamans MUST spend mastery points to be able to effectively heal a tank in a tough fight. Certain mastery upgrades (such as surging power) will be required.

    - Tap-style resistance debuffs/buffs sound pretty interesting. However, we need to understand how potent the numbers are to gauge their usefulness. Does 4 resistance equate to 4 percent? 2 percent? 0.25 percent? How can we insure that the numbers are significant enough to be meaningful without creating stacking problems when you have multiple class abilities (or multiple group members) that can buff or debuff resistances?

    Special states (windswept, surging power, etc)
    - Concerned about how quickly the additional effects seem to fade (both offensive and defensive). Current implementation feels like it will promote rotation-based button mashing instead of tactical ability choice during combat. Cross-class synergies will be especially difficult and will likely require voice chat coordination between group members to utilize, putting players who cannot/will not use voice chat at a significant disadvantage.
    - I do appreciate the potential for cross-class synergy. Thumbs up on the concept overall.


    Mastery system:
    - Overall I like the way it is working but I feel like there needs to be something that allows for diversity within characters of the same class at max level/mastery, above and beyond LAS choices. This does not mean a specialization system per se - but players should have the opportunity to develop distinct styles and should be rewarded for that to some extent.
    - I am concerned that mastery benefits for abilities are awarded linearly. Meaning there's not a choice involved in terms of which bonus you get for a specific ability. The only choice is which ability you spend the points in first. This might be a minor distinction once we see the rest of the mastery system.

    Mastery shards and crystals:
    - I like this in concept as a crafting tie-in to adventuring, but there is going to have to be a lot more in order for crafting to actually be a viable sphere that requires time and dedication to master and not just something people spin up an alt to do for the sake of convenience. I do not want to see a situation where every guild or serious player has an alt set up just to process mastery shards for their mains.

     

    • 762 posts
    April 2, 2020 7:35 PM PDT

    All fair questions Neph

    I loved the passing comment regarding combining of abilities to create alternate effects, without root on your bar you may have a way of creating a similar effect through synergy within your own spell lines or maybe and hopefully between other group members spells too!

    Love it!

    • 236 posts
    April 2, 2020 8:58 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    I do not want to see a situation where every guild or serious player has an alt set up just to process mastery shards for their mains. 

    There is nothing VR can do to prevent this.  It will happen, especially among raiding guilds and even casual guilds of any moderate size.  No matter how difficult or expensive it is to level up crafting, large numbers of people will level them up for the convenience and long-term cost savings.  Guilds will put up the money and materials to ensure there is at least one of every craft available to the guild.  There is simply no way to avoid this and attempting to do so with game mechanics would only be a waste of time and resources.

    • 487 posts
    April 2, 2020 9:21 PM PDT

    Honestly I am extremely bummed out about status 'States'. It directly goes down the rabbit hole of wombo combo twitchy gameplay (that I thought we were trying to avoid, right?). Joppa even used the phrase, "to set up for a greater type of effect". I loved the game shown in PA2, PA3, PA4 - but every other "new" thing we get shown seems to get further and further away from the "old school" EQ-like game. Windswept just as an example was 4 seconds, and with mastery was 6 seconds...get ready to react and hit your buttons or miss out. This is a weird way to force "synergy" amongst classes.

    Another thing was the removal of downranking. Downranking was so much fun to min/max in EQ and in WoW. Now, all those spells and abilities that we had in the past (Cohh's last stream) have been pruned, and all of the "choice" of what spell(s) to use was just placed into spending Mastery to upgrade it or not - and not on the spells themselves. Some of you may think, "yeah but that helps with ability bloat," what you are missing there, is that ability bloat only hurts when Spell_X and Spell_Y are very similar in cost and effect - but not when HoT_1 (rank 1) and HoT_1 (rank 2) are similar. Take WoW's priest for example, it was smart to use a lower Flash Heal rank once you got certain +healing thresholds because your overall healing throughput would increase due to the amount of mana now saved on the downranked spell. That option is now completely gone in Pantheon - and you will be left with only having your max rank always...where is the flavor in that?

    I am really hoping testing either proves me right and this stuff changes over time, or that it proves me wrong and adds some extremely fun gameplay - but there really isn't a middle ground here, as it's either fun or it isn't. I want to be able to play whatever class to my maximum potential without feeling like I need X or Y class in the group to do my C-C-Combo breaker abilities.

    • 360 posts
    April 2, 2020 9:39 PM PDT

    So Progeny.  They did mention it tonight but didn't give any beans.  I did have a thought as to what 'could' happen. 

    what if, when you progeny, your Progeny (character) starts out with the same number of Mastery points you had prior to going Progeny.

    Or, maybe you start out with half, or 20, whatever that number is, makes you a legit lev 1, with zero advantages other than, you get to Master spells WAY earlier than normal.

    but! remember, when you start out, you don't have all your spells. remember, some are drops, some are raid drops, boss drops, random drops, world drops (not sold by vendor) 

    and, a Lev one Wizard might start with Firebolt and Shield. if you want to, you can "Master" that firebolt at lev 1  this is IF you wanna spend points on THAT spell. 

    So then you would need to wait til lev 2, 3, 4 etc to spend more Mastery points. (because you need the spell, you can't spend them on spells you don't have yet) 

    This would meet the "idea" of having a "more powerful character" right from lev 1 (if you choose to boost that level one spell) 

    Maybe you could also retain some of the DEEP STATS as well. That could also make you 'slightly more powerful' than a normal level one as well. 

    Just thoughts. 

    I really really enjoyed this Dev stream. This is what I have wanted out of every dev stream. REAL info. 

    I am already thinking ahead to how everything I learned in this stream will play out on Other classes and those thoughts are really fun!

    Everyone over at PantheonPlus also thought this stream was the best one yet. What do you guys think?

     

    p.s. you guys almost got me to open up my wallet after tonights power packed show.  give me MORE of this type of info, and you will get more money.  Balls in your court now... what ya going to do ?

     

     


    This post was edited by Flapp at April 2, 2020 9:54 PM PDT
    • 360 posts
    April 2, 2020 9:46 PM PDT

    Fragile said:

    Honestly I am extremely bummed out about status 'States'. It directly goes down the rabbit hole of wombo combo twitchy gameplay (that I thought we were trying to avoid, right?). Joppa even used the phrase, "to set up for a greater type of effect". I loved the game shown in PA2, PA3, PA4 - but every other "new" thing we get shown seems to get further and further away from the "old school" EQ-like game. Windswept just as an example was 4 seconds, and with mastery was 6 seconds...get ready to react and hit your buttons or miss out. This is a weird way to force "synergy" amongst classes.

    Another thing was the removal of downranking. Downranking was so much fun to min/max in EQ and in WoW. Now, all those spells and abilities that we had in the past (Cohh's last stream) have been pruned, and all of the "choice" of what spell(s) to use was just placed into spending Mastery to upgrade it or not - and not on the spells themselves. Some of you may think, "yeah but that helps with ability bloat," what you are missing there, is that ability bloat only hurts when Spell_X and Spell_Y are very similar in cost and effect - but not when HoT_1 (rank 1) and HoT_1 (rank 2) are similar. Take WoW's priest for example, it was smart to use a lower Flash Heal rank once you got certain +healing thresholds because your overall healing throughput would increase due to the amount of mana now saved on the downranked spell. That option is now completely gone in Pantheon - and you will be left with only having your max rank always...where is the flavor in that?

    I am really hoping testing either proves me right and this stuff changes over time, or that it proves me wrong and adds some extremely fun gameplay - but there really isn't a middle ground here, as it's either fun or it isn't. I want to be able to play whatever class to my maximum potential without feeling like I need X or Y class in the group to do my C-C-Combo breaker abilities.

    100% agree with all this ^^^^^^


    This post was edited by Flapp at April 2, 2020 9:48 PM PDT
    • 762 posts
    April 2, 2020 11:54 PM PDT
    @fragile Definitely will be interesting to see how it feels in testing, would you support the concept with a longer duration of the status?

    I like the idea behind it. I wonder if one group members has put their in status on a mob, could it effect another players spell negatively. I guess like lowering fire damage because the mob is in a wet state / status. Maybe he said something about that on the stream I was struggling to concentrate today!
    • 132 posts
    April 3, 2020 1:16 AM PDT

    I am very happy with the change to the spell and ability system to remove the multiple versions of the same spell or ability at different levels with different names and simply have one version of each spell which grows in power over time.

    It will be far easier for the developers to develop abilities, create and balance those abilities and set up synergy that way with just one version of each spell instead of 4-5 versions. It's more focused with more pros than cons.

    Downranking gone is absolutely fine, I never relied on it or needed it in EQ or similar MMOs as a healer, it looks like a crutch that some relied on.

    If Pantheon is being designed without it then that is fine, let's let Pantheon be developed as Pantheon and not give the same feedback over and over again trying to make Pantheon into WoW like a small vocal minority seem to do.

     

    I really liked the synergy effects that were shown, self synergy and multi-class synergistic possibilities.

    4-6s for Headwinds was fine, coordinating this is possible via voice chat or simple macros that write in the group chat when an ability is used. 4-6s looks to be plenty of time based upon other spell casting times - so it required timing, it isn't too fast that it's twitchy gameplay and it isn't too slow that it's meaningless.

    The states and all the possibilities that will bring looked amazing, so many options and so much to be going on under the hood in Pantheon combat in general and so many different things each class will bring into the game or create through synergy. For players attacking NPCs but also for NPCs attacking players. I'm looking forward to combat with groups of NPCs or bosses that exploit this synergy also.

     

    Some people really need to wait to test this for themselves really, instead of being so preemptively negative on the forums.

    • 487 posts
    April 3, 2020 1:53 AM PDT

    Hokanu said: @fragile Definitely will be interesting to see how it feels in testing, would you support the concept with a longer duration of the status? I like the idea behind it. I wonder if one group members has put their in status on a mob, could it effect another players spell negatively. I guess like lowering fire damage because the mob is in a wet state / status. Maybe he said something about that on the stream I was struggling to concentrate today!

    I don't like 'Status' effects at all TBH. I understand when a mob is stunned, snared, rooted, etc...but having to constantly micromanage when/if/during mobs are wet/windswept/burning/etc sounds just plain bad. One of the less fun things to do in MMO's is stare at the chat window or debuff window for a specific time to do X/Y/Z, and if you miss that window #feelsbadman.

    I don't see why there needs to be this super forced "synergy" when it will already exist from normal spells/abilities and class roles/dynamics. It honestly is looking a lot like feature/scope creep, and a lot less like the traditional "old-school" MMO that we have all pledged to.

    • 762 posts
    April 3, 2020 2:18 AM PDT

    Fragile said:

     One of the less fun things to do in MMO's is stare at the chat window or debuff window for a specific time to do X/Y/Z, and if you miss that window #feelsbadman.

    Haha too true! 

    I hear ya on it feeling a bit forced, but we'll see... it may end up having a nice flow in game, potentially enticing players to be more aware of how their group members are playing, which isn't a bad thing.

    • 487 posts
    April 3, 2020 2:37 AM PDT
    Being mindful of your group, mobs, environment, resources, cooldowns is one thing, but yeah..."setting up" combos every 10-20-30-40 seconds is so much tedium. It's one of those things that sounds fun on paper, but belongs in Street Fighter or some other console game.
    This is just on the small scale so far, in a raid it will be even worse.
    • 1707 posts
    April 3, 2020 5:36 AM PDT

    Fragile said: Being mindful of your group, mobs, environment, resources, cooldowns is one thing, but yeah..."setting up" combos every 10-20-30-40 seconds is so much tedium. It's one of those things that sounds fun on paper, but belongs in Street Fighter or some other console game. This is just on the small scale so far, in a raid it will be even worse.

    I think I will need to see how it works in testing, but I am a little concerned, yes.

    I think being aware of 'states' is a fine thing to add, but I would like to see it be *less* impactful with longer duration and possibly be 'burned out' when it is taken advantage of.

    I love the idea but anything that can potentially give such huge boosts means balancing encounters is surely near impossible. If you balance for the boosts the encounters are impossible without them. If you balance for no boosts, the encounters are trivial with them.

    On the whole I am really encouraged by the amount of thought these mechanics require, but I am worried by the effect they might have. A good addition, but we don't want everything else to pale in comparison (or combat to become twitchy).

    • 1605 posts
    April 3, 2020 7:03 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

     

     

    I think being aware of 'states' is a fine thing to add, but I would like to see it be *less* impactful with longer duration and possibly be 'burned out' when it is taken advantage of.

    I love the idea but anything that can potentially give such huge boosts means balancing encounters is surely near impossible. If you balance for the boosts the encounters are impossible without them. If you balance for no boosts, the encounters are trivial with them.

    On the whole I am really encouraged by the amount of thought these mechanics require, but I am worried by the effect they might have. A good addition, but we don't want everything else to pale in comparison (or combat to become twitchy).

    Yeah - Personally, I like the concept of combat states as a way to do synergy.  I just don't want it to be something that requires instant reactions on the part of players.  To me, having a state stick around for 10-20 seconds and go away when something else leverages it seems right.  This is especially true for defensive states like we saw with the healing.  I don't want to put players in a situation where they always press 2 right after they press 1, if that makes sense.

    A lot will depend how it works out in testing.  It's definitely an area of concern though.

  • Wig
    • 227 posts
    April 3, 2020 7:12 AM PDT
    I don’t see why they are trying to do these set up combos. I agree, that’s tedious and annoying. There will be enough synergy between classes due to the roles they fill. I personally don’t like the way it tells you pretty much how to play optimally. Let the players determine the meta through gameplay. Allow us to figure it out.
    • 18 posts
    April 3, 2020 7:31 AM PDT

    IF they Put this  kinda of combo system in  i wasted alot of money supporting a game thats going to get twitchy we have that now its FF14 very good looking game but its not old school EQ style game play.

    I really wish some one would take EQ1 mechanics  maybe clean up some of the  buggy stuff  and just give a a new world with  new lore and a fresh new look. 

     


    This post was edited by Vixx at April 3, 2020 7:36 AM PDT
    • 1941 posts
    April 3, 2020 7:47 AM PDT

    VR and all you white knights who think I only complain and criticize, pay attention as i want this noted:  I was quite pleased with the information shown about the Shaman. The class is definitely feeling more like the class I've been envisioning since I first heard about Pantheon over 6 years ago.

    Things I really liked and appreciate:


    1.  The large count-down numbers in the spell bars!  As an older player, seeing these timers have actual numbers is a welcomed addition.

    2.  Chronoburn.  I've been hoping to see an EQ1 style Cannabalize and now I have it. Higher mana costs have been a staple of many iterations of Shaman across other games and having the ability to trade health for mana is a great addition.  In Pantheon, the Shaman will be required to cast mulitple spells just to do their job as priest.

    3. The Mastery system (the system formerly known as Ability Points).  One of my long standing questions was the progression of buffs and if they would go from single target to group.  Master appears to allow for that.  It will be one of those things you go for quite quickly as it saves a lot of time.  The fact that, so far, the switch from single to group  happens at the second level and not the third is greatlly appreciated.

    4.  Buff Durations.  40 minutes as a starting point is a great change, up from 36 minutes. With the ability to increase that to an hour is a wonderful compromise between the 36 minute we've seen and the multi-hour durations seen in EQ1.  I think 1 hour is good.

    5.  The Pet.  This is an interesting take on the pet and one I really like.  You have a decision.  Physical for additional DPS and for sacrificing to do in-combat rez or Spirit for better mana regen.  What I'm needing to see is just how you switch between Physical and Spirit and how long that takes.  A quick thought was that if you can switch at-will, then you get the best of both at all times.  Pull out the Spirit and if you're thinking you're about to die, switch to Physical, sacrifice it to rez, then switch back to Spirit.

    6.  Mastery Shards.  This is an interesting take, that there really are 3 paths to mastery and each progresses as part of your natural adventuring out in the world.  The shards that crafters can turn into crystals is a great idea and one that my guild will ensure we have plenty of people doing that to meet all our needs.

     

    Ok, now onto the concerns. Come on, you know I had to have some concerns.

    1. DoTs with buff components.  Ok, I do not get this one at all.  Why should a  DoT I cast on an NPC provide me with a resist buff, and one that only lasts a few seconds?  I get the DoT creating a debuff on the mob, but that effect only last as long as the DoT itself.  jNaturally in an ice/cold environment you'd want to be casting Fire base spells, but what NPCs in that area will themselves be casting Fire based spells back at us?  Will the classes not have long-term buffs against the 10 damage types shown?

    2. States.  I...hate...combos.  And not the tasty snack, but spell combos. Especially ones with stupidly short windows of opportunity.  It remains to be seen if the mana expense justifies the benefit.   Just because a wizard in my group might be whining that I'm not getting the mob into a particular state does not mean I'm going to spend the mana on it, especially if I'm the sole priest in a group.

    3.  Different tick rates.  When we saw the heals being cast, the heal numbers were happening VERY quickly, far faster than the 1 pulse every 3 seconds seen in previous streams.  Those pulses were happening at least every second, were they not? Or was that just a bug.  The spell tooltip said 750 HP over 24 seconds and the pulses were happening far too quick.  150 every second over 24 seconds is 3,600 HP healed.

    4.  HoT healling power.  The tool tip for Mantle of the Deep said 750HP over 24 seconds. That is for a level 38 spell.  That spell, by itself, can only deal with 31.25 incoming DPS.  To me, that is a terribly low number.  31 DPS at level 38? And before anybody pipes up and starts going on about the possibilty for crits, you cannot count on RNGs to save your ass.  I am still greatly concerned about the healing power of the Shaman.

    5. Donwranking gone.  While I can agree that after 50 levels you have a spell book just littered with spells you wont use, but at the same time there is sometimes a need to keep a lower level spell. And it comes down to mana cost.  Many times a new spell has an increase in mana cost that does not scale with your manapool.  You need to rely upon the earlier spell for a few levels before the new one can be used reliably.  Having the older spell removed could cause a problem.  I suspect we'll see people get that new spell then hold off scribing it for a level or two if the mana cost increase is too much.

     

    The big dislike:

    Numbers floating over heads.  I hate that.  It is information that is never in the same place on your screen so if you rely upon those number you constantly have to hunt for them. And given the short duration of many effects so far, a blink and you miss it.  Plus it ends up just being visual clutter the more people you have around.  Please include an option to turn that garbage off.

     


    This post was edited by Vandraad at April 3, 2020 10:29 AM PDT
    • 2713 posts
    April 3, 2020 7:51 AM PDT

    We will, Gods willing, see how things actually work in practice and those in the testing group will have plenty of chance to comment.

    So without focusing on precise details I will just agree that anything resembling action combat as used in too many MMOs would be contrary to what most of us hope for here. A game that rewards preparation and development of *characters* and game abilities as distinct from instant reflexes on the part of the *player*.

    Other than nostalgia I am inclined to see little benefit to having 10 versions of fireball each to be used in a rare set of circumstances. Better to have one fireball that gets more powerful as the character gains levels and abilities that have synergy with it. If there is a need for lower powered varients easy enough to toss them in with different names.


    This post was edited by dorotea at April 3, 2020 7:52 AM PDT
    • 192 posts
    April 3, 2020 7:57 AM PDT

    I noticed the Shaman will be able to play two roles either at the same time or separately if two shamans are in the same group.

     

    I wonder if this will be the case for all classes? Will two enchanters be able to fill separate roles in the same group, 2 Wiz, 2 Wars, etc?

    • 82 posts
    April 3, 2020 8:11 AM PDT

    There was indeed a good deal of info to digest in this one that’s for sure. For the most part I enjoyed what I saw and am really looking forward to seeing how it pans out.

     

    As for the states system as some one who adored ffxi skill chain system as well as vanguards combo system I am looking forward to seeing how it works in this and also seeing if timing numbers need to be adjusted on how long states last for and other such stuff. But the premise I can get behind that’s for sure.

    The only thing that makes me sad if it is the case is with the removal of previous level spells does this mean the spell name improvement will also be removed?

    I know this is just fluff but even if the spell is the same going from “Blast of Cold” to “Blast of HoarFrost” just feels good even if it is basically the same spell with higher numbers. So I do hope that part stays in if nothing else.


    This post was edited by Akailo at April 3, 2020 8:11 AM PDT
    • 38 posts
    April 3, 2020 10:11 AM PDT

    I know there are those here that are going to poo-poo it without giving it a chance, but I thought this stream in particular was great at showcasing how they are approaching designing dynamic and engaging combat with class roles and the limited action set. Like anything it's going to need refinement, but as someone who typically mains a healer (and is planning on maining a Shaman), I'm glad there seems to be more to it than just "Select target > push heal button."

    I'm a little sad to see downranking go, but I can live without it.

    • 279 posts
    April 3, 2020 11:01 AM PDT

    Some of the deep stats are intriguing, such as "CraftOfTheHidden"  what's up with that? 

    "Chi Mastery" and "Chi Blast" are nice from Monk standpoint.  Being a Internal Martial Artist, I love to see "Chi Mastery"  boost some passive HoT, and be able to boost (one or two) elemental resistances at a time.  the kick skills see basic.  I would love to see Bagua Style Deer Horns weapons for the Monk such a unique style it would make the monk feel more complete.  But I digress, the skills was in the video so...


    This post was edited by Caine at April 3, 2020 11:01 AM PDT
    • 2621 posts
    April 3, 2020 11:08 AM PDT

    Nephele said:

    - Overall I like the way it is working but I feel like there needs to be something that allows for diversity within characters of the same class at max level/mastery, above and beyond LAS choices. This does not mean a specialization system per se - but players should have the opportunity to develop distinct styles and should be rewarded for that to some extent.

    Hard disagree on that. Not sure what that would be other than specialization, but I am entirely over that kind of thing. I want a return to knowing exactly what any given class will bring to the table without having to wade through "specs" or other distinctions that may alter their gameplay. 

    • 2160 posts
    April 3, 2020 11:18 AM PDT

    Metas destroy the concept of playstyles.

    Give players opportunities to exercise skill. Skill is what distinguishes players when all else fails.

  • April 3, 2020 11:33 AM PDT

    Thanks for the stream!  As always, it was interesting and greatly appreciated.  My only feedback worth mentioning is that I'm a bit dismayed at the removal of the downranked spells.  Availability of downranked spells was critical to my EQ Wizard and Cleric to squeeze out one last damage or heal in a critical OOM situation.  The only justification given during the video was to reduce clutter (I personally enjoyed organizing my spells), which seems minor when compared to the potential impact to dynamic gameplay.  One thought I had while watching the video was to make lesser versions of a spell available via a key combo such as '1' launches Greater Heal, SHFT+1 launches Minor Heal.  You get the drift. 

    • 1605 posts
    April 3, 2020 11:57 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Nephele said:

    - Overall I like the way it is working but I feel like there needs to be something that allows for diversity within characters of the same class at max level/mastery, above and beyond LAS choices. This does not mean a specialization system per se - but players should have the opportunity to develop distinct styles and should be rewarded for that to some extent.

    Hard disagree on that. Not sure what that would be other than specialization, but I am entirely over that kind of thing. I want a return to knowing exactly what any given class will bring to the table without having to wade through "specs" or other distinctions that may alter their gameplay. 

    Can you elaborate on the reasons for your frustrations?  This isn't me needling you - I would honestly like to understand your point of view better.