Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Class and race restrictions need to change

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    • 3380 posts
    April 2, 2020 2:56 PM PDT

    Shea said:

    Simple answer NO ..... no need to change the race restrictions , lore and faction matters .. so no .. dont change it unless necessary  to change it due to lore or faction . 

     

    I always found the "lore and faction matters" comment rather strange.  How exactly does faction matter?  There is the idea that certain races don't like each other and it's even backed up by lore and faction.  Yet, in the world, this isn't actually realized.  Players get to be special snowflakes and ignore the lore and faction that supposedly matters.  Elves and Skar might hate each other based on the game lore and their factions, but that only affects NPC's, right?  An Elf travels to Skargol and is KOS with Skar NPC's.  An Elf player sees a Skar player and can instantly group up with them, potentially become best friends, purposely die in order to save them in combat, or even get married.  It could happen, right?  I don't buy into this narrative that lore/faction matters when players are exempt.  If anything, this is a good reason why the race restrictions do not make sense.  Every NPC in Skargol might want to try and kill every Elf they see on sight but when it comes to Skar players, the opposite is true.  Elves are an ally, a friend, a guildmate.  Players are obviously exempt from history, tradition, faction, and lore in this sense.  If lore and faction are actually supposed to matter in a believable and consistent way, Elves would be artificially restricted from grouping with Skar, and a variety of other restrictions would emerge that follow the same logic.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 2, 2020 3:06 PM PDT
    • 1160 posts
    April 2, 2020 3:22 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Shea said:

    Simple answer NO ..... no need to change the race restrictions , lore and faction matters .. so no .. dont change it unless necessary  to change it due to lore or faction . 

     

    I always found the "lore and faction matters" comment rather strange.  How exactly does faction matter?  There is the idea that certain races don't like each other and it's even backed up by lore and faction.  Yet, in the world, this isn't actually realized.  Players get to be special snowflakes and ignore the lore and faction that supposedly matters.  Elves and Skar might hate each other based on the game lore and their factions, but that only affects NPC's, right?  An Elf travels to Skargol and is KOS with Skar NPC's.  An Elf player sees a Skar player and can instantly group up with them, potentially become best friends, purposely die in order to save them in combat, or even get married.  It could happen, right?  I don't buy into this narrative that lore/faction matters when players are exempt.  If anything, this is a good reason why the race restrictions do not make sense.  Every NPC in Skargol might want to try and kill every Elf they see on sight but when it comes to Skar players, the opposite is true.  Elves are an ally, a friend, a guildmate.  Players are obviously exempt from history, tradition, faction, and lore in this sense.  If lore and faction are actually supposed to matter in a believable and consistent way, Elves would be artificially restricted from grouping with Skar, and a variety of other restrictions would emerge that follow the same logic.

     

    As much as I think this request by the OP is just another step out on the slippery slope to normalize everything and take the "world" out of Pantheon so it shouldn't be considered at all. I have to agree with 187 on the lore part of his comment. Yes, the OP's desires could easly be met by the Lore, a simple pencil can change the lore to justify anything (water flowing uphill for example).
    Bust just becouse it's that easy doesn't mean it should be done... they should at least try to pretend that the lore matters.

    • 350 posts
    April 2, 2020 9:37 PM PDT

    disposalist said:

    @Jothany Just playing devil's advocate, I don't dispute the disparity, but I wonder: why does it matter?

    Are some players so attached to Gnome or Ogre that they won't play the game because of limited class choice?

    Are we bothered that we won't see many Gnomes or Ogres around, given an even class/role distrubtion?

     

     

    First off Race/Class restrictions don't bother me, but Jothany's list makes a good point. Assuming all starting cities aren't near one another the Gnome and Ogre's will have difficulty forming groups at low levels since they will be missing roles. That would make leveling one of those race/class combos more difficult from the start, thus pushing people away from them. If every starting area has some sort of neighboring race that fills out the missing roles problem solved, we just don't know yet though.

    • 1785 posts
    April 2, 2020 11:17 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Shea said:

    Simple answer NO ..... no need to change the race restrictions , lore and faction matters .. so no .. dont change it unless necessary  to change it due to lore or faction . 

     

    I always found the "lore and faction matters" comment rather strange.  How exactly does faction matter?  There is the idea that certain races don't like each other and it's even backed up by lore and faction.  Yet, in the world, this isn't actually realized.  Players get to be special snowflakes and ignore the lore and faction that supposedly matters.  Elves and Skar might hate each other based on the game lore and their factions, but that only affects NPC's, right?  An Elf travels to Skargol and is KOS with Skar NPC's.  An Elf player sees a Skar player and can instantly group up with them, potentially become best friends, purposely die in order to save them in combat, or even get married.  It could happen, right?  I don't buy into this narrative that lore/faction matters when players are exempt.  If anything, this is a good reason why the race restrictions do not make sense.  Every NPC in Skargol might want to try and kill every Elf they see on sight but when it comes to Skar players, the opposite is true.  Elves are an ally, a friend, a guildmate.  Players are obviously exempt from history, tradition, faction, and lore in this sense.  If lore and faction are actually supposed to matter in a believable and consistent way, Elves would be artificially restricted from grouping with Skar, and a variety of other restrictions would emerge that follow the same logic.

     

    This is simply a setup. I don't really get how you don't get what a setup of a world is. The world has lore, history and hatred or alliances and NPC follow the branches of this to offer a baseline setup. Just like in a RPG book you have information about how a specific city has an anti-X policy due to previous events.

     

    Going there with your group of player with at least one X is a choice that has consequences and can be a bad decision, but if one of your comrades plays an X, then it's up to every player to choose is their character folow the reasons that made X's specie hatred or not, based of lore information they have and if they do, or don't, follow it.

     

    Now most players in MMO's wont, because they put aside the lore and roleplay to emphasis on the sociability aspect or on the mutual need aspect, or they simply consider the game as a "game" where they don't care about such things. Some will use it as an excuse to attack on sight on pvp servers, not that they would do it anyway as long as they are sure to get an upper hand.

     

    Considering which reaction you would collect with a middle east "type" in the USA is a good idea of "what factions represent".

    • 1707 posts
    April 3, 2020 7:26 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Shea said:

    Simple answer NO ..... no need to change the race restrictions , lore and faction matters .. so no .. dont change it unless necessary  to change it due to lore or faction . 

    I always found the "lore and faction matters" comment rather strange.  How exactly does faction matter?  There is the idea that certain races don't like each other and it's even backed up by lore and faction.  Yet, in the world, this isn't actually realized.  Players get to be special snowflakes and ignore the lore and faction that supposedly matters.  Elves and Skar might hate each other based on the game lore and their factions, but that only affects NPC's, right?  An Elf travels to Skargol and is KOS with Skar NPC's.  An Elf player sees a Skar player and can instantly group up with them, potentially become best friends, purposely die in order to save them in combat, or even get married.  It could happen, right?  I don't buy into this narrative that lore/faction matters when players are exempt.  If anything, this is a good reason why the race restrictions do not make sense.  Every NPC in Skargol might want to try and kill every Elf they see on sight but when it comes to Skar players, the opposite is true.  Elves are an ally, a friend, a guildmate.  Players are obviously exempt from history, tradition, faction, and lore in this sense.  If lore and faction are actually supposed to matter in a believable and consistent way, Elves would be artificially restricted from grouping with Skar, and a variety of other restrictions would emerge that follow the same logic.

    I've always disliked the whole opposing 'evil' and 'good' concepts for playable races, unless you have a non-optional PvP situation (and I don't play PvP in MMORPGs), *but* adventurers always have been the exceptions in RPGs and it's a suspension of disbelief we are used to (from before EQ even).

    I've always explained it to myself, like, there's no reason the Ogres as a race can't be violent and domineering and 'hate' other races (from historical and current conflicts), but individual Ogres be ok to cooperate with similar individuals of other races they see as powerful and deserving respect (in an adventuring group). Also, adventuring Ogres probably are more outgoing and tolerant of (or at least interested in) diversity. The less outgoing ones will use their training to take up tribal positions and jobs.

    And ongoing adventuring activities may well effect their faction standing with other races or their own race if they aren't careful what they do with that group. You could even do that in EQ I believe. If not careful, joining with a group when they killed *your* faction could see you KOS to individuals (or your trainers!) in your own home.

    It kinda *is* an explanation for race-class restrictions, since adventurers presumably can't train each other, only NPC guilds have the capability and those guys are not outgoing and adventurous in their values (no, Mister Skar, I will not train you to be a cleric, just because this cleric here says you are a "stand-up guy"). So level 1 characters can only be a product of their own racially restrictive society.

    In EQ, characters could gain opposing faction enough eventually to train with them, though that was where classes were shared. But, maybe their offspring (progeny, even...) could then train as a class previously unavailable to their race? And/or maybe if, for example, there developed an enclave of faction-changed Ogres within an Elven city - that would mean level 1 Ogre Bards would be possible?...

    I'm waffling, but I guess I'm saying, there's always an element of suspension of disbelief involved in MMORPGs and though I would prefer 'evil' and 'KOS' be reserved for non-playable races to make things more sensible, the lore and factions can still apply if well written.

    • 1707 posts
    April 3, 2020 7:36 AM PDT

    EppE said:

    disposalist said:

    @Jothany Just playing devil's advocate, I don't dispute the disparity, but I wonder: why does it matter?

    Are some players so attached to Gnome or Ogre that they won't play the game because of limited class choice?

    Are we bothered that we won't see many Gnomes or Ogres around, given an even class/role distrubtion?

    First off Race/Class restrictions don't bother me, but Jothany's list makes a good point. Assuming all starting cities aren't near one another the Gnome and Ogre's will have difficulty forming groups at low levels since they will be missing roles. That would make leveling one of those race/class combos more difficult from the start, thus pushing people away from them. If every starting area has some sort of neighboring race that fills out the missing roles problem solved, we just don't know yet though.

    Ah, yeah, from the point of view of not wanting to make groups difficult to form for individual 'evil' races, I agree. Even EQ gnomes had clerics and warriors? Though Summoners might be able to tank... And heal their tank?...

    • 3380 posts
    April 3, 2020 8:39 AM PDT

    disposalist said:

    *but* adventurers always have been the exceptions in RPGs and it's a suspension of disbelief we are used to (from before EQ even).

    This is exactly why race/class restrictions shouldn't apply to players.  To me, it is extremely farfetched that it's "impossible" for my ogre to become a bard, in an open-world game, because it "doesn't make sense."  Adventurers are the exceptions.  We can call it set-up or whatever else but in the end ... it fails, for me.  (Kind of like building a set-up for an aquarium and then sticking a laundry basket on it.)  I don't want to hear anything about character development restrictions being justified by "lore/faction matters"  --  it doesn't matter.  Players are the exceptions.  It's an open-world roleplaying game and players should be able to develop their character how they want.  To be clear ... as long as something like this is possible with progeny, I think that is a fair compromise.  If players have to deal with the matrix restrictions at character select, so be it.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 3, 2020 8:40 AM PDT
    • 2160 posts
    April 3, 2020 8:41 AM PDT

    I agree tbh. Open up the class/race matrix.

    Also, do away with racials so aesthetics are all that matters while you're at it.

    • 169 posts
    April 3, 2020 8:52 AM PDT

    Flapp said:

    i am 'ok' with the current race/class matrix, but i understand the 'want' as well.

    i do question a couple of the restrictions; no elf or hafling Clerics? 

    all good, i'll just go human. (will do dwarf if I can NOT be blue or gray) don't want to be a smurf or dark-iron 

     

    the want comes from the Min/Max community, they don't want to play the game they want to sateamroll it and then call people noobs and bads because they got what they wanted and keeping with lore would be the better thing to do in this case ... DEVS don't listen to people in this threat about wanting more class options the min min/max players are wanting to dictate what the rest of the community do not want in this game...


    This post was edited by Oldwargoat39 at April 3, 2020 8:55 AM PDT
    • 3380 posts
    April 3, 2020 8:54 AM PDT

    Oldwargoat39 said:

     

    the want comes from the Min/Max community, they don't want to play the game they want to sateamroll it and then call people noobs and bads because they got what they wanted and keeping with lore would be the better thing to do in this case ... DEVS don't listen to people in this threat about wanting more class options...

    Please stop with the strawman fallacy, it's ridiculous.

    • 169 posts
    April 3, 2020 8:55 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Oldwargoat39 said:

     

    the want comes from the Min/Max community, they don't want to play the game they want to sateamroll it and then call people noobs and bads because they got what they wanted and keeping with lore would be the better thing to do in this case ... DEVS don't listen to people in this threat about wanting more class options...

    Please stop with the strawman fallacy, it's ridiculous.

    no it is not strawman so stop the BS keep with lore...

    • 3380 posts
    April 3, 2020 8:58 AM PDT

    Oldwargoat39 said:

     

    no it is not strawman so stop the BS keep with lore...

    Let me break this down for you:

    Here is the definition of a strawman:  "An intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument."

    That is exactly what this comment was:

    Oldwargoat39 said:

    the want comes from the Min/Max community, they don't want to play the game they want to sateamroll it and then call people noobs and bads because they got what they wanted and keeping with lore would be the better thing to do in this case ... DEVS don't listen to people in this threat about wanting more class options the min min/max players are wanting to dictate what the rest of the community do not want in this game...

    Made-up nonsense.  If you aren't going to make an effort to try and read/comprehend what people are saying, please don't pretend to speak for them.  It is also unfair to separate Min/Max players from the rest of the community, or automatically assume that everybody who wants to see a change to the matrix is doing so for Min/Max reasons.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 3, 2020 9:03 AM PDT
    • 445 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:03 AM PDT

    Factions always mattered in Everquest , promise you if you were a evil race the people of Halas would attack you ! Untill you gained faction with said area . 

      I think keeping certain classes from playing certain races , makes the game for more alive and gives it more depth .. 

    Not to mention , I think the developers did a great job on it .. Does every thing need to change cause someone wants  this or that ?

    I don't want my epic pet to be something I have to have the Enc around for .. if someone gives me a logical reason why then I might change my mind , Saying synergy is not good enough answer when no other epic has to have another class to use it . plenty of ways to synergize .. ( so sad, to bad ) . lol  

     

     


    This post was edited by Shea at April 3, 2020 9:04 AM PDT
    • 169 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:04 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Oldwargoat39 said:

     

    no it is not strawman so stop the BS keep with lore...

    Let me break this down for you:

    Here is the definition of a strawman:  "An intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument."

    That is exactly what this comment was:  "the want comes from the Min/Max community, they don't want to play the game they want to sateamroll it and then call people noobs and bads because they got what they wanted"

    Made-up nonsense.  If you aren't going to make an effort to try and read/comprehend what people are saying, please don't pretend to speak for them.

     

    It's not a strwman when I have seen from different forums for different MMO's and seen some the same names (sometimes spelled differently) wanting the same thing, it is not a strawman and restricing classes and races due to lore reason is a good thing. We want unquie player base not cookie cutter players like in FF14, WOW and a few others..

    • 2160 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:08 AM PDT

    EQ players thinking they're unique. Funniest **** I've heard all day.

    You aren't unique, you're just a rando, just like me.

    Wtf does cookie cutter player even mean?

    • 445 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:12 AM PDT

    No idea what cookie cutter players are ( I use em for making cookies ) 

    Joke trying to lighten things up here :) Honestly I'm not sure if any EQ/Wow/FX/or even candlyland players think they are unique . Maybe its a generational thing :)

    • 169 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:14 AM PDT

    the Min/Max group lost LAS/UAC debate, the person(s) there wanted all these hotbars for every spell/skill the class's had.So they were shut down there, now they are trying with race/class restrictions with different people. sorry but the this is not a strawman argument. It's the same small group of players who are trying to change the game to fit there needs and not care about the want of the community of keeping the race/class restrictions.. this does goes agenst the tenents of the game

    • 169 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:16 AM PDT

    Shea said:

    No idea what cookie cutter players are ( I use em for making cookies ) 

    Joke trying to lighten things up here :) Honestly I'm not sure if any EQ/Wow/FX/or even candlyland players think they are unique . Maybe its a generational thing :)

    cookie cutter players are players who are the same race and class for the class they chose that use the same build across the board and are optimized by the Min/Max players and thorycrafters. Anything else that is different is not optimized hense a bad build/player. So everyone looks the same hence a cookie cutter player. they pretty much Min/Max players want to throw out the class/race restrictions to fit the Min/Max player base needs and not stick to the overall community wants and needs. Min/Max also don't want the game to follow the core tenents of the game as well if they had it there way..


    This post was edited by Oldwargoat39 at April 3, 2020 9:29 AM PDT
    • 2160 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:16 AM PDT

    Somebody was shut down in a thread? That's news to me.

    You seem salty. Maybe you should take a step back.

    Oldwargoat39 said:

    cookie cutter players are players who are the same build across the board for the same class an anything else that is different is not optimized hense a bad build/player

    FFXIV doesn't have builds. You should know what you're talking about before you start trying to argue a point.


    This post was edited by Liav at April 3, 2020 9:17 AM PDT
    • 169 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:32 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    Somebody was shut down in a thread? That's news to me.

    You seem salty. Maybe you should take a step back.

    Oldwargoat39 said:

    cookie cutter players are players who are the same build across the board for the same class an anything else that is different is not optimized hense a bad build/player

    FFXIV doesn't have builds. You should know what you're talking about before you start trying to argue a point.

    But there are builds in ff14 for jobs in that game as well so that statement is not valid. I know there is I use to play the game since patch 2.1 

    • 169 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:36 AM PDT

    Liav said:

    Somebody was shut down in a thread? That's news to me.

    You seem salty. Maybe you should take a step back.

    I am not salty or angry at all, so please don't assume what my my mood is please thank you...

    • 2160 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:40 AM PDT

    ???

    Jobs have absolutely no customization in XIV.

    Even so, we're getting off the beaten path. You seem like you had a bad experience with a toxic player at some point and it has colored your perception to the point that you're painting with some rather broad strokes.

    • 169 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:44 AM PDT

    FFXIV doesn't have builds. You should know what you're talking about before you start trying to argue a point.

    Samurai had 3 different rotations and 2 different gear layouts depending on party comp, Dragoons has 2 different rotations and gear layouts for those rotations, Warrior has 2 different loadout (1 for tanking and another for off tanking DPS) would you like me to pull up Momo's guild for Ninja? (but i digress) that statement is false and there is a ton of proof..

    • 2160 posts
    April 3, 2020 9:51 AM PDT

    You're not wrong, but you're using a definition of build that is pretty different than what it generally means. WoW builds aren't exactly comparable to changing your rotation and swapping out gear.

    I mean, Samurai has 3 different BIS gear sets right now that perform closely enough that it's basically personal preference which one you run. I wouldn't exactly call that a "build" though by any commonly accepted definition.

    The problem I have with what you're saying is the overused term "cookie cutter". If you had access to all of the gear in the game, every single player in EQ would use the exact same BIS gear depending on their class. You seem to be asserting that EQ is somehow different and that the game offers you choice, but if anything there is less choice. The only reason gear diversity in EQ exists at all is because it's unreasonable for 99% of players to actually achieve BIS in every slot outside of a few players on TLP servers.

    So now that we've gotten that out of the way:

    Stop trying to paint everyone who disagrees with you into a tiny little box that you have constructed in a weak effort to strengthen your argument.

    That is, by definition, a strawman.

    • 866 posts
    April 3, 2020 10:11 AM PDT

    Joppa just said a couple weeks ago that they are changing some of the race/class combinations... assumably because the currentt race/class matrix doesn't make sense like a lot of us have mentions.  The lore was written AFTER the race/class matrix was developed 3 years ago, proving that the current matrix was not designed based off of the lore (that is still being written) to just end that debate.  I understand "trying to justify" a being's existance based off of a made up story, because we need that as humans to feel like we better understand where something is from or why it exists.  In D&D (and other similar RPGs), good DM's require their players to have a background/backstory to help the players become immersed in the game because they now have a more fully developed "being" to connect with on an emotional level.  But with that said, I aggree with 187 (oneADseven) that, like in recent editions of DnD, the players can become even MORE immersed into their characters if they can create their own narrative (within reason).  Maybe there's an Ogre that REALLY wants to be a rogue, ranger or monk but his clan would disown them... what's stopping that Ogre from leaving their clan and adventuring with the elves and humans?  ($Million says that Ogres will be adventuring with humans in this game).  Archai can't be Summoners or Enchanters (people are assuming because their ancestors were enslaved)?  Does that mean that as an African American I can't be a farmer working my fields or have a pet?  Absurd.  The only exception I could see to the race/class matrix would be physical or mental limitations for starting stats at character creation.  i.e. Perhaps in order to become a WIZ, ENC, NEC, or SMN, you must have a starting INT of XXX, but because Ogers and Halfling's starting INT is so low, they don't have enough points to spend to raise to the minimum requirement.  (Same could be said for the Ogre's DEX and that being a requirement for RNGR, ROG, MNK, BRD).  That would have nothing to do with lore but actually make sense and end most of the arguing.

    But regardless, as mentioned above, Joppa already stated that they are revisiting the race/class matrix.


    This post was edited by Darch at April 3, 2020 10:11 AM PDT