Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Class and race restrictions need to change

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    • 118 posts
    March 31, 2020 1:08 AM PDT

    Looking at the class/race matrix it doesnt look great to me, now i know the devs have lore reason as to why each race can only be certain classes, but id love it if they would reconsider for various reasons.

     

     

    Ive been playing MMOs for 22 years, i know how their minds work and most people are going to go the class they want, regardless of race, i dont think many would argue class is a much more important choice over race.

    Myself for exmaple i want to be archai and the two classes id like to be, either direlord or necromancer they  cannot be, so im forced to be a monk.
    Though to be honest i will probably end up going a human, as they can be any class for some reason, you're completely out of luck if you wanted to be an ogre as you can only be four classes.

    This is a bad thing because people are just going to be humans, dark Myr or elfs as these have the most class options, this will be so boring just seeing the same races flooding the game because players had no choice, i know many people will go their chosen race regardless, but lets focus on the majority, 80% of players are going the class they want, not the race.

    You can easily fix this by giving each race an additional 2 classes, exlcuding humans, elfs and dark myr ofcourse they have enough, this will give players much more freedom of choice.
    You control the lore, make something up until the new changes make sense.

    Otherwise we can all enjoy Pantheon rise of the humans.

    EDIT: Just to be clear folks, at no point do i say i want every race to be able to play as every class, thats not what im asking.
    But for the majority of us, its likely our race of choice cant play the class we want.
    No one likes having their choices removed, im just asking they ease up on restrictions a little bit where possible.


    This post was edited by Grimseethe at March 31, 2020 7:36 AM PDT
    • 1785 posts
    March 31, 2020 2:03 AM PDT

    I'm fine with it. It's more a matter of expectations you put into your desires vs adaptating to the game.

     

    All/all games are bland and feel like race choice is just cosmetic, which to me is hindering the whole experience.

    • 1707 posts
    March 31, 2020 2:17 AM PDT

    Meh. I'm not a great fan of class-race restriction, but it's no big deal.  Can anyone be *that* hung up on a particular race's look and a particular class's style that anything else is seriously disappointing?

    If the race has any meaningful lore and the classes have any meaningful diversity there is bound to be combinations that don't work.

    If you insist on all/all you will need to lose the race and class identity somewhat.

    Also, I'm pretty sure Joppa said there might well be changes in the future. They aren't done yet. Cross your fingers and make your needs known (but I would also come up with a lore-based justification too, if you want to help).

    • 680 posts
    March 31, 2020 2:48 AM PDT

    Some races should be better suited for specific roles:  small races make better thieves,  large races make better tanks, ogres have low INT so make poor enchanters, etc. 

    I have no problem with completely opening up the class/race matrix to all choices, but some of those combinations should be clearly inferior to others.  Maybe gnome warrior is a horrible choice from a min/max perspective, but if someone wants to go that path for RP reasons and makes it work, then why not?

    If the concern from the devs is supporting all of the classes with story lines in all of the starting cities, then make the starting cities dependent on class first, then race as a secondary if there's an option.  If the player would be KOS in the starting city, tweak their faction just enough that they won't be killed the moment they spawn in game, but give them a hard task ahead to be accepted as say an Archai necromancer starting out amongst the Dark Myr.

    Make more (all?) combinations possible, but give serious consequences for some choices.


    This post was edited by Celandor at March 31, 2020 2:57 AM PDT
    • 2713 posts
    March 31, 2020 7:15 AM PDT

    They could change the system and be entirely consistant with the lore. For example allowing an ogre to be additional classes but with a *significant* penalty so that the ogre simply wouldn't be very good at it. Or would be forced to be living in exile with significant alignment penalties and restrictions on dealing with merchants and other NPCs in the place of exile. 

    Probably a lot better for players to simply deal with what is a very standard system. Most of us claim we want an "old school" game. Well, that means dealing with elements of "old school" that we didn't like as well as elements that we did like.

    I take exception to the title of this thread. They do not *need* to change the system. You *want* them to change the system. The phrase "I want" is by no means the same in meaning as the phrase "you must".

    • 51 posts
    March 31, 2020 7:32 AM PDT

    well no , doesnt make sense for skar to be clerics or wizards or summoners theyre a warrior race  best they do is shamans doesnt make anysense for gnomes to be direlords  most of us want to stay away from the everyone can be everything bullshit that ruined eqnext

     

    • 1941 posts
    March 31, 2020 7:48 AM PDT

    Grimseethe said:

    You can easily fix this by giving each race an additional 2 classes, exlcuding humans, elfs and dark myr ofcourse they have enough, this will give players much more freedom of choice.

    Ok, so the questions I have of you are why 2?  And why do you think Elf and Dark Myr have 'enough' such that they couldn't use a few more?

    I suspect that you have a specific class/race combo that isn't available so you want that one included for you but you can't be seen to ask for it selfishly so you write it like you're trying to benefit everyone.

    So the Dark Myr lack 3 classes and the Elves lack 5 and I'm sure someone out there really wants to be a Dark Myr Paladin or Shaman or an Elf Cleric but your proposal is a big 'sucks to be you' because, in your opinion, they have enough options.

    • 118 posts
    March 31, 2020 8:00 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Grimseethe said:

    You can easily fix this by giving each race an additional 2 classes, exlcuding humans, elfs and dark myr ofcourse they have enough, this will give players much more freedom of choice.

    Ok, so the questions I have of you are why 2?  And why do you think Elf and Dark Myr have 'enough' such that they couldn't use a few more?

    I suspect that you have a specific class/race combo that isn't available so you want that one included for you but you can't be seen to ask for it selfishly so you write it like you're trying to benefit everyone.

    So the Dark Myr lack 3 classes and the Elves lack 5 and I'm sure someone out there really wants to be a Dark Myr Paladin or Shaman or an Elf Cleric but your proposal is a big 'sucks to be you' because, in your opinion, they have enough options.




    1 more 2 more 3 more, i dont really care, i just feel it needs to be more.
    I left out elf and dark myr because they can go alot of classes already, but not everything, which feels like good balance to me.

    Even if i could be an archai direlord or necromancer, id still make this post.
    Devs need to think long term, gamers are fickle, 10 years from now no one will be impressed that humans can go everything while orgres can be 4 things, lore friendly or otherwise.
    If every race could go as many classes as elf or dark myr, that would be a perfect amount of restriction in my opinion.

    • 217 posts
    March 31, 2020 8:34 AM PDT

    I start my character selection with deciding which class I want to play. Then I look to see which race would best suit my needs to make that an awesome toon. Only after I have two or three established characters would I bother trying an oddball race/class combo, but I do like the possibility of doing so (such as gnome/warrior).

    With that being said, I would be perfectly fine with some race/class options being more open, but I do like some races being very restrictive, as well as some classes. I thought EQ did a great job by only allowing two races to be monks (and it was only humans prior to Kunark). It's submersive when you can look at a race and inherently have a good idea of what class they are. It makes you think about the lore of the race. It's cool. In a game where anyone can be anything, you lose that.

    What  could  be a cool compromise, is to deal with opening up class/race restrictions through the prodigy system.

    • 169 posts
    March 31, 2020 8:38 AM PDT

    I am seeing what you want. NO stop trying to min/max this game before this game comes out and no again  I rather see the class restrictions based on race kept in place as they are now. Just deal with it and stop trying to change things to benifit a small playerbase that is trying ruin it for the rest of us. Funny how you do not show your profile oh wait another forum board rider and not a backer....again...


    This post was edited by Oldwargoat39 at March 31, 2020 8:39 AM PDT
    • 1605 posts
    March 31, 2020 8:46 AM PDT

    I think the limitations and broad availability to Humans is intentional and also based on MMO observance as the OP mentioned.

     

    I think more general players wil lbe drawn to humankind, because of the class availability, where more RP types will be drawn to the more racial and the more Hard core will be drawn to the more exotic and limited.

    I am basing my assumption on SWoTR, where the "masses" all wanted to be Jedi but the more experienced and refined players were dark side. that doesnt mean experienced and refined players were not also Jedi, the scales seemed more tipped to first time loggers, to that end.

    I can see the same thing possibly happening in pantheon, and my hope is that some accidental RP will bubble up out of it just from the hubris of those behind the mask of their "hard" avatar causing new players of that race that interact with them to think- this must be how they are and take on those characteristics.

    Imagine a devout PvP proponent in a PvE server as the first skar. As a new player rolling a skar and meeting them for tips or interaction, it will flavor their outlook. As the saying goes, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. 

     

     

    • 169 posts
    March 31, 2020 8:49 AM PDT

    Grimseethe said:

    Vandraad said:

    Grimseethe said:

    You can easily fix this by giving each race an additional 2 classes, exlcuding humans, elfs and dark myr ofcourse they have enough, this will give players much more freedom of choice.

    Ok, so the questions I have of you are why 2?  And why do you think Elf and Dark Myr have 'enough' such that they couldn't use a few more?

    I suspect that you have a specific class/race combo that isn't available so you want that one included for you but you can't be seen to ask for it selfishly so you write it like you're trying to benefit everyone.

    So the Dark Myr lack 3 classes and the Elves lack 5 and I'm sure someone out there really wants to be a Dark Myr Paladin or Shaman or an Elf Cleric but your proposal is a big 'sucks to be you' because, in your opinion, they have enough options. 

    SO what you want to do is min/max by adjusting the race/classes restrictions to benifit you and your small group of players only and not the community overall?? sit down,be quiet and deal with the current resrtictions if you, don't like it don't buy the game. The community is content with the current class/race restrictions, your only going to cause problems for yourself and the rest of your group problems if the community sees this.... YOU NOT A DEV so you do not know!!We do not care about your ego driven,min/max authratative exp you claim to have(what you are doing here is trying to bully us sit down,shut up).Also, trying to make this MMO that fits your needs.You do not want a challenge you want to walk over the content with ease and a speed run to endgame. how about you just play the game when it comes out!!!


    This post was edited by Oldwargoat39 at March 31, 2020 9:09 AM PDT
    • 169 posts
    March 31, 2020 9:13 AM PDT

    Manouk said:

    I think the limitations and broad availability to Humans is intentional and also based on MMO observance as the OP mentioned.

     

    I think more general players wil lbe drawn to humankind, because of the class availability, where more RP types will be drawn to the more racial and the more Hard core will be drawn to the more exotic and limited.

    I am basing my assumption on SWoTR, where the "masses" all wanted to be Jedi but the more experienced and refined players were dark side. that doesnt mean experienced and refined players were not also Jedi, the scales seemed more tipped to first time loggers, to that end.

    I can see the same thing possibly happening in pantheon, and my hope is that some accidental RP will bubble up out of it just from the hubris of those behind the mask of their "hard" avatar causing new players of that race that interact with them to think- this must be how they are and take on those characteristics.

    Imagine a devout PvP proponent in a PvE server as the first skar. As a new player rolling a skar and meeting them for tips or interaction, it will flavor their outlook. As the saying goes, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. 

     

     

     

     

    I played a human in SWTOR and wasn't a jedi and was good at it as well (I digress). What the op is trying to petition for(and btw not a backer) is to adjust the class/race restrictions to power game throught it just to get to endgame using so-called experance,ego, and authrative words to bully people in the community and convince the devs to change the race/class resrtictions to benifit him and a small group of players!!! I would take his words with a grain of salt at this point.


    This post was edited by Oldwargoat39 at March 31, 2020 9:24 AM PDT
    • 279 posts
    March 31, 2020 9:42 AM PDT

    I like the restrictions base on the lore.  I want to play to the strengths of the world created before me.  if they are restricting race/class combo, it because they have a good reason.

    But if they did allow any race to be and any class, then they could use the perception system to regulate the more odd race / class combos.  An example being, that some class perception pings will not be available to some races and vise versa.  Your race and class should affect how you perceive the world.  There should be alignment concerns as well.  It is a RPGMMO. 

    Players need to conceed to reality of the world, not sculpt the world to their prefered reality.


    This post was edited by Caine at March 31, 2020 10:21 AM PDT
    • 420 posts
    March 31, 2020 10:13 AM PDT

    Grimseethe said:

    i dont think many would argue class is a much more important choice over race.


     

    I never play anything but Human, it’s true I like to journey to other worlds on a grand adventure, but I’m not trying to become someone or something else, and since I’m human that’s what I will play.

    Class means nothing, I’ve played them all, and there’s really nothing special between them, never has been, never will be.

    • 300 posts
    March 31, 2020 10:14 AM PDT

    Coming from a RPG background race/class restrictions don't bother me and in the same vein classes having different strengths and weaknesses is a good thing.

    • 147 posts
    March 31, 2020 10:36 AM PDT
    There are different types of gamers and they want different things:

    Min/Maxers want the best combos so they typically don't mind restrictions on combos they weren't interested in anyway. Some prefer their teammates also not be a sub-optimal combo, so the min/maxers usually prefer race/class combo reatrictions.

    Lore focused gamers usually also favor some reatrictions as a way of keeping other players and the world more broadly consistent with the game more. The last thing they want is a bunch of Gnome Dire Lords with names like "Deez Nutz" in game.

    Creatives like an open world with maximum creative potential and love making/seeing unusual and investing characters.

    We can't satisfy all three groups, but we can come up with something more flexible then the current yes/no approach. For instance, allow restricted combos in a way that makes them rare. Min/Maxers won't care much (due to scarcity), some Lore people will like it (since the rare combo is explained and not seen often) while others will dislike it a bit (if they want no exceptions at all no mater what), and the Creatives will absolutely love it (they get to be creative and are rare). So for two groups it's not a big deal and for the third it's a huge positive.

    Ways to allow scarce combos:
    • Player has to unlock a race by getting another character of the same race to max level
    • Progeny characters can choose from restricted combos
    • 406 posts
    March 31, 2020 10:40 AM PDT

    I love class/race restrictions.  Adds to character identity and individuality.  Of course, I often enjoy playing one of the fewer chosen races along with one of the fewer chosen classes.  I value uniqueness.  

    • 169 posts
    March 31, 2020 10:49 AM PDT

    Counterfleche said: There are different types of gamers and they want different things: Min/Maxers want the best combos so they typically don't mind restrictions on combos they weren't interested in anyway. Some prefer their teammates also not be a sub-optimal combo, so the min/maxers usually prefer race/class combo reatrictions. Lore focused gamers usually also favor some reatrictions as a way of keeping other players and the world more broadly consistent with the game more. The last thing they want is a bunch of Gnome Dire Lords with names like "Deez Nutz" in game. Creatives like an open world with maximum creative potential and love making/seeing unusual and investing characters. We can't satisfy all three groups, but we can come up with something more flexible then the current yes/no approach. For instance, allow restricted combos in a way that makes them rare. Min/Maxers won't care much (due to scarcity), some Lore people will like it (since the rare combo is explained and not seen often) while others will dislike it a bit (if they want no exceptions at all no mater what), and the Creatives will absolutely love it (they get to be creative and are rare). So for two groups it's not a big deal and for the third it's a huge positive. Ways to allow scarce combos: • Player has to unlock a race by getting another character of the same race to max level • Progeny characters can choose from restricted combos

    I would have to disagree with you on the min/max part: I know the Min/Max crowd enought to know this is not true. The Min/Max croud wants everything optimized so they would want everything open to them as per race and class so they can build that optimal Mage or optimal pally, it is one of those "open secrets" alot of players know about it but don't talk about it..

    • 1941 posts
    March 31, 2020 10:52 AM PDT

    Counterfleche said: Player has to unlock a race by getting another character of the same race to max level

    Ok.  That's something which will be very easy to do.  But, say you really want that Skar Wizard so you level up a Skar Warrio to 50 and then create your Skar Wizard.  There you are in Skargol...with no wizard class trainers.  The race doesn't offer wizards so there wouldn't be class trainers around. Are you just going to run off to the Human city then?  The city where you're KOS to everyone and everything too.

    And what about years later when the level cap inevitably goes up?  Is the rule still stuck at 50 or does it climb to the new level cap?

    • 2621 posts
    March 31, 2020 11:41 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I'm fine with it. It's more a matter of expectations you put into your desires vs adaptating to the game.

     

    All/all games are bland and feel like race choice is just cosmetic, which to me is hindering the whole experience.

    This. The game does not need more race/class options opened up unless it is through progeny, which I support entirely.

    Vandraad said:

    Counterfleche said: Player has to unlock a race by getting another character of the same race to max level

    Ok.  That's something which will be very easy to do.  But, say you really want that Skar Wizard so you level up a Skar Warrio to 50 and then create your Skar Wizard.  There you are in Skargol...with no wizard class trainers.  The race doesn't offer wizards so there wouldn't be class trainers around. Are you just going to run off to the Human city then?  The city where you're KOS to everyone and everything too.

    And what about years later when the level cap inevitably goes up?  Is the rule still stuck at 50 or does it climb to the new level cap?

    The easy solution here is having the unlock/progeny option for something like a Skar Wizard require maxing the original characters faction with whichever race they want their progeny to start in. Then their new character can start just barely above KOS in whichever city that has/trains Wizards. 

     

    The idea with a system like this is it cuts out the "but muh RP" arguments by quite a bit. Instead of people forming their own assumed backstory about how their grandpa left the ogres of Broken Maw and gained the friendship and eventual acceptance of the humans of Thronefast, thus allowing their character to be raised as a wizard, the game would force them to MAKE that story. You want that? Make it happen. Play the grandpa first. Everyones first character starts as an average member of whichever race, future characters can take on a more storied history based on the accounts character history. 

    • 1707 posts
    March 31, 2020 12:00 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I'm fine with it. It's more a matter of expectations you put into your desires vs adaptating to the game.

    All/all games are bland and feel like race choice is just cosmetic, which to me is hindering the whole experience.

    This. The game does not need more race/class options opened up unless it is through progeny, which I support entirely.

    Vandraad said:

    Counterfleche said: Player has to unlock a race by getting another character of the same race to max level

    Ok.  That's something which will be very easy to do.  But, say you really want that Skar Wizard so you level up a Skar Warrio to 50 and then create your Skar Wizard.  There you are in Skargol...with no wizard class trainers.  The race doesn't offer wizards so there wouldn't be class trainers around. Are you just going to run off to the Human city then?  The city where you're KOS to everyone and everything too.

    And what about years later when the level cap inevitably goes up?  Is the rule still stuck at 50 or does it climb to the new level cap?

    The easy solution here is having the unlock/progeny option for something like a Skar Wizard require maxing the original characters faction with whichever race they want their progeny to start in. Then their new character can start just barely above KOS in whichever city that has/trains Wizards. 

    The idea with a system like this is it cuts out the "but muh RP" arguments by quite a bit. Instead of people forming their own assumed backstory about how their grandpa left the ogres of Broken Maw and gained the friendship and eventual acceptance of the humans of Thronefast, thus allowing their character to be raised as a wizard, the game would force them to MAKE that story. You want that? Make it happen. Play the grandpa first. Everyones first character starts as an average member of whichever race, future characters can take on a more storied history based on the accounts character history. 

    I like it. Might be a bit of extra effort to work that faction, but if you want your progeny to be accepted you have to put in that work. Some progeny class-race combos would be easier than others, but if you really want that Skar Paladin...

    • 378 posts
    March 31, 2020 12:16 PM PDT

    Choice matters.

    • 1893 posts
    March 31, 2020 12:52 PM PDT

    Stick with lore above all else.

    • 147 posts
    March 31, 2020 1:22 PM PDT
    @Iksar
    I really like your idea and it basically gives the lore reason for the exception. Characters would have to unlock a friendship with the other race (or maybe even the trainer specifically).

    Other possibilities:

    Have a few race-flexible NPCs in some small camps throughout the world.

    Have NPC trainers in the racial home city, but you don't know they train for the forbidden class until you are playing that class. They keep it very hush-hush. This would be especially interesting since you could find out that that secretive, creepy NPC you've known for ages is actually a secret trainer.