Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

raids not just dragons and demons?

    • 58 posts
    March 14, 2020 9:05 AM PDT

    One thing i would like  for pantheon to avoid, is  the attitude that only demons dragons and giants   and such things get raids. Id  like if at first dragons are..not really intended to be raided at first or  pantheon might end up like eq running out of bigger badder  stuff to kill by year 5. Look at everquest, 2 dragons, and one fishman for a  small raid , slightly later came   hate and fear  and Posky jumping right to  gods and their minions....  I want more city based raids more humanoid raids  , giant monsterous worldbosses of  things like a spider that fed on the corpse of a dragon and grew to monsterous size, or a  giant zombie shark that feasted on the remains of the fallen. Let those dragons  have quests to , but you realy have to work to improve faction with them. Maybe a  zombie horde randomly trys to  wipe out cities . I always felt that everquest wasted a opportunity with all those useless factions   nagafen or vox no quests  for them or their  giant minions. To get around the problem of conflicting factions, ie i dont want to ruin my fire giant faction have different factions of  firer giants like ones a minion of  "Not nagafen" were you get quests from, and the other ones you can kill  without penalty are maybe "not nagafens"  rival.

    • 1292 posts
    March 14, 2020 11:31 AM PDT

    there's alot of nasties on terminus.  we also have a collage of pantheons from each of the races, plus of the old cough cough ginto mad king, the creators, i'd like to see warwizards as good guys gone villianous. that good old clint eastwood saying: die a hero or live long enough to become the villian.  thanos did nothing wrong!  there are non playable races too that can be hostile... like orcs XD.

    there's also factions in each of the races too that don't conform to normal parameters of the race.

    i think vr has left the door open for the variety you seek.

    • 191 posts
    March 14, 2020 6:26 PM PDT
    I kinda understand what you mean. I wasn't into eq(played ffxi) and I could not imagine a endgame landscape that doesn't have unique and varied encounters with truly imaginative enemies. I have been a tad concerned watching the streams because it seems most of the encounters are with huminiod type enemies, would love to see some variety with maybe infiltrating a colony of ants to kill the queen or hunting for alpha beast in the wild for rare pelts.

    But after seeing the boss sleepless(I think that's his name lol) seems like they are on a good trajectory!
    • 1651 posts
    March 14, 2020 7:43 PM PDT

    Why does a raid need to be a single big monster?

    Why can't it be a tough and highly coordinated group of enemies?

    For that matter, why does a raid need to be about killing the giant monster?  What if it was simply about holding out and surviving the assault?  What if it was about accomplishing a different objective like stealing an artifact, or escorting a group of refugees through dangerous territory?

    Let's think outside the "raid = big ass monster" box a bit more :)

    • 1628 posts
    March 14, 2020 9:38 PM PDT
    I prefer killing things.

    I'm sure we have all played raids with a variety of mechanics. Escort/puzzles/mazes/levers/traps etc.
    To me those kind of things are fun once or twice but I never feel the same satisfaction as a head to head battle without extra gimmicks.
    • 251 posts
    March 15, 2020 3:31 AM PDT

    philo said: I prefer killing things. I'm sure we have all played raids with a variety of mechanics. Escort/puzzles/mazes/levers/traps etc. To me those kind of things are fun once or twice but I never feel the same satisfaction as a head to head battle without extra gimmicks.

    I agree with this. One of the best things about EQ, in my opinion, was how forgiving combat was provided you could adapt to it. I like the presence of complex mechanics. but I feel like there is a point that these things become very unforgiving. I personally want combat to be adaptive vs unforgiving. If you have 2 out of 6 people die during an encounter you should still be able to complete that encounter provided resources and skills are managed and maintained. 

    One of the things that I hate about WoW currently is that you typically know within the first 45 seconds of a boss pull if its a wipe or if you still have a chance to kill it. There is nothing adaptive or strategic about this type of combat and there is nothing that promotes the mentality of "Hey, it's ok we can still do this let's not give up". Honestly, these unforgiving conditions tend to lead to an extremely toxic environment and a very restrictive play style within the encounter. 

    I was watching PreachGaming talk about mythic raids in BFA because I have pretty much moved on from the raiding environment this expansion. He was talking about how every encounter you have to be consistent and do the exact same dance. There's no "O hey, I should adapt and do something else like CC because the person in charge of it died." because typically the complex mechanics will steamroll you and your group if you do this. For me personally this is not a fun gameplay loop. I like having the option and ability to change my playstyle based on the dynamic circumstances within a fight. 

    • 61 posts
    March 15, 2020 5:06 AM PDT

    Lets raid an angel!

    What ?

    Why do I need to be a good guy ?

     

     

    • 1893 posts
    March 15, 2020 6:26 AM PDT

    There's always a push to be different, but then, people also like to see the familiar done well.

    I'm sure there will be a variety of 'old-school' dragon-demon-giant stuff and some new shizzle also.

    • 801 posts
    March 15, 2020 7:56 AM PDT

    Isle of Infinite Storms + unusual raid mobs + massively multiple mobs + survivability rules all ====>

    SHARKNADO!

    just kidding, that would require crafters to make and distribute chainsaws to everyone...

    • 112 posts
    March 15, 2020 9:54 AM PDT

    It would be amazing to approach a raid city or temple that before you even enter you have a series of waves of defenders that try and stop you from even entering. If you watch the stream making of a city it looked like the city was laid out with a defensive mindset archer posts and a slaughter chamber if you breach the doors this city was possibly designed with this type of event or raid already in mind. You could still end up at a final boss but have to battle all the lurking mobs in different ways and potentially even fight through the actual city that could have traps to bring the enviroment into play without needing weather to be the factor maybe toxic fumes are released as you pass through the catacombs such and such.

    • 191 posts
    March 15, 2020 10:08 AM PDT

    philo said: I prefer killing things. I'm sure we have all played raids with a variety of mechanics. Escort/puzzles/mazes/levers/traps etc. To me those kind of things are fun once or twice but I never feel the same satisfaction as a head to head battle without extra gimmicks.

    I kinda agree with you but I feel there is some room for unique mechanics depending on how they are implemented. I agree the typical do this first then hit this lever, or mazes that are no longer mazes after 3 runs through it scenarios should be lessened to the level climb part of the journey. However if implemented in a creative way, they can serve to really flesh out endgame raid scenarios and help keep every encounter fresh! See my example as an explanation...

     

    One of my most favorite encounters to date was the Nyzul Isle low main raid in ffxi. Basically, you had a 30 minute time limit to climb floors in a 100 floor tower, and your progress only saved after every 5 floors you gained. Every floor had a random objective to complete from killing everything to identify a specific target to being randomly being a free floor(no objective just move to the next). Every 20th floor was a boss.

     

    The best loot was at the 100th floor and the challenges got harder the higher you climbed. Also I believe your been progress reset after completing the 100th floor. The unique objectives forced us the players to revise the typical tank and spank strategies and forced classes to use resources that previously went unused. It was basically the kind of event where no encounter would ever feel scripted or the same because the objectives never had any real kind of script you could plan for! The best thing is you had a predictable path of progress, but the climb never felt repetitve,  I feel the combination of time pressure plus the randomization of the objectives kept the event fresh for a long time!

    • 630 posts
    March 15, 2020 1:05 PM PDT

    Nephele said:

    Why does a raid need to be a single big monster?

    Why can't it be a tough and highly coordinated group of enemies?

    For that matter, why does a raid need to be about killing the giant monster?  What if it was simply about holding out and surviving the assault?  What if it was about accomplishing a different objective like stealing an artifact, or escorting a group of refugees through dangerous territory?

    Let's think outside the "raid = big ass monster" box a bit more :)

    I've been hoping VR puts at least a few 'Easter Eggs' in the game, and parodies of cultural icons are one of my favorite types. (NO, not a ton of them, don't start throwing "immersion" at me) But a few, scattered here and there.

    I started thinking about that again when this topic came up, and the first 'outside the box' idea that came to me was a raid where we face.....an Attack of the Killer Tomatoes!

     

    Ok, the complaint window is now open :)

    • 1651 posts
    March 15, 2020 3:37 PM PDT

    ROFL killer tomatoes.  Love it.

    I agree that raids should have replayability, so there shouldn't be gimmicks that you learn the first couple of times and then they're boring time sinks afterward.  Honestly, though, that applies to just as many "big monster" raids as it does anywhere else though.

     

    Neph's "tenets" for raid encounter design.

    1) Raids should be special.  They should not simply be scaled-up versions of group content.  Ideally, when an open-world raid is happening it should impact the world around it.

    2) Raids should be unique.  From one raid to the next, players should face different challenges.  While mechanics can sometimes be re-used, they should be used in different ways.

    3) Raids should have a narrative.  Both in terms of why they exist, as well as in terms of how the encounter plays out.  Please note this does not mean an easily learned or predictable script.

    4) Raids should not simply be walls of hp that players have to tear down.  Players are too good at basic math.  Raids need to be about more than simply raw numbers in order for challenge to be preserved.

    5) Raids should not always be about a single big monster.  Always having a single boss limits design opportunities to truly introduce unique and challenging gameplay.

     

    With that said, here are a few examples to help people understand what I'm getting at.

    Example 1:  The Dragon of the Peak

    In the foothills of the great mountains, there is a small village of shepherds and a few farmers.  Nearby, atop a peak, are some ancient standing stones, the remnants of a long-lost cult or religion.  Legends whisper that every year, in the winter during a great storm, the Dragon of the Peaks comes to hunt.  The villagers know to stay indoors even as they hear their sheep being torn apart by monstrous jaws, or as the wind batters their walls and roofs.  Having sated its hunger, the dragon can be glimpsed among the standing stones, although it is gone by the time the storm abates.  Some of the more superstitious villages say that is the dragon itself that brings the storms.

    If you would attempt to slay the dragon, the only time available to you is when it is among the stones.  But this is no easy feat.  First, your force must make their way up the mountainside in the midst of a howling gale.  A treacherous climb even during fair weather, only fools would venture out during a storm, when a gust of wind might easily push you over a ledge, or driving hail might set loose an avalanche over your head.  When you reach the stones, your plight is not over, for the summit will be slick with ice and the winds will change rapidly, pushing you perilously close to the sheer cliffs on all sides.  You might think to brace yourselves among the stones, but the dragon knows your weakness and will use its fiery breath to drive you away from your haven should you linger too long.

    Even should you somehow remain atop the peak, you still must contend with the dragon itself.  Ancient and scarred from countless battles, this is no easy prey.  It may land upon the ground to shred you with its claws and buffet you with gusts from its wings.  It may take to the air and rain down fire upon you.  It may slam it's tail into the mountainside, seeking to bury you in ice and boulders.  Worse, it is intelligent enough to recognize threats, and it may purposely target the weakest among you to thin your ranks or use its great bulk to crush and immobilize your mightiest warriors.

     

    Example 2:  A perilous voyage

    The passage from Whitethaw to Reignfall is no easy feat, and few are the captains who will make the journey, most preferring to pass to nearby Kingsreach and then voyage on from there.  However, a few enterprising souls are known to brave the waters, and some of them even return to tell the tale afterward.  Those who do survive speak of perils great and numerous, but also of treasures of lost ships floating among the waves.  Such stories always entice the foolish and the bold.

     

    Perhaps one such captain is in port right now and perhaps he seeks a crew for the trip.  Should you and yours choose to join him, you will experience an adventure unlike any other.  Perhaps a hurricane will come upon your ship as strange creatures from beneath the waves assault the decks.  Perhaps a ship of bloodthirsty pirates will catch your scent and give chase, attempting to board.  Perhaps the tentacles of a great sea monster will rise from beneath the waves and attempt to break your ship and pull you under.  Or perhaps you'll run aground on a deserted, haunted island, as the bloated bodies of drowned sailors rise up and stagger towards your ship.  With each trial, with each encounter, your numbers and supplies dwindle, and you face a choice:  Press on and risk everything, or take what you have and set sail for home?  The choice is yours.

     

    Example 3:  The army of the seven clans

    The orcs of Terminus divide themselves into clans, and normally, these clans war with each other as much as they do with the neighboring races.  But on rare occasions, a leader emerges among the orcs who can command the loyalty of multiple clans, and when this happens, the world itself trembles.  The mere rumor of a gathering of orc clans causes every nearby nation to prepare for war.

    Should you and your companions wish to prevent war, there is one way to prevent such a gathering.  Orcish tradition states that one would lead the clans must first face champions from each clan in ritual combat before the altars of their gods.  The location of the rituals is the old Orcish fortress of Za'maran, and each altar inside is carefully constructed around a rare blood crystal.  Considered neutral ground by all the clans, it is usually guarded only by a token force - after all, who would risk the fury of all of the orcish clans by attempting to claim it, deep within orc territory as it is.  Nevertheless, should someone infiltrate the fortress and fend off the orcish counterattack while somehow stealing the blood crystals from each of the altars and then escape, the orc clans would not be able to unify until they had managed to obtain more crystals to satisfy their traditions.

    Do you really mean to try this?  Well, good luck.  First, as mentioned, you must assault the fortress and dispatch its defenders.  Then you must fortify your position, for the fury of the orcs will be upon you shortly.  The fortress may have some siege weapons that you can use to even the odds.  As you fight off the orcish armies attacking from outside, you must also still find a way to take the crystals from the altars within - altars which will almost certainly attempt to defend themselves when someone tries to steal the crystals.  Even should you accomplish that there is still the small matter of escaping with your lives as more and more orcs continue to join the counterattack against you.  You do have a plan for escaping, don't you?

     

    Those are just a few examples of different kinds of raid encounters.  And before anyone starts talking about instances, all of what I just said (and more) is entirely possible to do in a shared, open world.  It just requires treating the concept of raids more like special zone or world events, and less like things that people farm repeatedly for phat lewts.

     


    This post was edited by Nephele at March 15, 2020 3:37 PM PDT
    • 630 posts
    March 15, 2020 5:00 PM PDT

    Well, they're no Killer Tomatoes, but not TOO shabby :D

     

    They're really great Neph. Now I really want to jump on that ship and go fight the Pirates. AArrrrrrgghhh!

    VR should hire you for content creation. (hint hint)

    • 1628 posts
    March 15, 2020 6:43 PM PDT

    Grimix said:

    I kinda agree with you but I feel there is some room for unique mechanics depending on how they are implemented. I agree the typical do this first then hit this lever, or mazes that are no longer mazes after 3 runs through it scenarios should be lessened to the level climb part of the journey. However if implemented in a creative way, they can serve to really flesh out endgame raid scenarios and help keep every encounter fresh! See my example as an explanation...

     

    One of my most favorite encounters to date was the Nyzul Isle low main raid in ffxi. Basically, you had a 30 minute time limit to climb floors in a 100 floor tower, and your progress only saved after every 5 floors you gained. Every floor had a random objective to complete from killing everything to identify a specific target to being randomly being a free floor(no objective just move to the next). Every 20th floor was a boss.

     

    The best loot was at the 100th floor and the challenges got harder the higher you climbed. 

    I think we have different perspectives.  Climbing while being timed with a boss every 10 levels?  That sounds like the type of gimmicky gameplay I hope we don't see.

    I'm guessing most of us have played through raid encounters where developers tried to get creative and they would have been better off keeping it simple (DDO is infamous for that).

    Don't get me wrong some interesting mechanics can be fun but I prefer those mechanics to include core gameplay elements like charms/mez/off tanking/positioning/managing buffs/debuffs etc.

    Getting to creative with the encounter design ends  up not being as fun more often than not in my experience.


    This post was edited by philo at March 15, 2020 6:47 PM PDT
    • 58 posts
    March 21, 2020 9:15 AM PDT

     

    I started thinking about that again when this topic came up, and the first 'outside the box' idea that came to me was a raid where we face.....an Attack of the Killer Tomatoes!

     

    Ok, the complaint window is now open :)

    thatd be a great raid but ONLY if a bard has to sing puberty love to win it !     I hope  terminous has a area with a bunch of giant dinosaur looking critters

    • 223 posts
    March 24, 2020 1:19 PM PDT

    Please move away from the paradigm of bigger and bigger single raid bosses. I want diversity in raid types and I want them to be dynamic, where we need to shift tactics and not just keep trying the same thing harder and harder. Unusual raid mechanics can feel gimmicky if they're static and easily figured out.

    Dynamic mechanics could be things like 'every time a character dies, a mob spawns that is a mirror copy of the dead player'. This is dynamic because the tactics needed to deal with the new threat will vary every time, depending upon who dies. I would also love to see a "survive against massive waves of enemies" raid. Make one that never ends (each wave is stronger than the last) and the goal is to try to hold out longer than anyone else has. Have a raid in a maze and different enemies have the ability to block pathways and open new ones. You would have an always shifting maze , leading to high replayability.

    Another raid idea: Everyone boards a ship and must defend it against giant sea monsters, flying mobs, and boarding mobs. The ship sails out to an island, raids the island, takes treasure chests back to the ship, and sails back (to make it more dynamic, there should be multiple islands to choose from). If you make it back, everyone gets to loot the chests that were taken from the island and placed on the ship.

    Optional way to make it more hardcore: If the ship sinks, everyone dies and all items they were carying are permanently lost. Thus, if you're smart, you take decent but not great equipment. You're deliberately undergeared so there's an added challenge of using different equipment plus the added rush from the stronger death penalty.


    This post was edited by Counterfleche at April 5, 2020 8:58 AM PDT
    • 1899 posts
    March 25, 2020 10:16 AM PDT
    There would have to be a massive potential reward to make me join a raid with the potential of losing all my gear.
    • 58 posts
    March 27, 2020 5:55 PM PDT

    Beefcake said: There would have to be a massive potential reward to make me join a raid with the potential of losing all my gear.
    i agree so massive even more gamebvreaking than epics where  maybe one or two but all no and not    epic stuff for sure

     

    • 223 posts
    March 27, 2020 8:10 PM PDT
    The perma-loss of gear is just an idea to make a raid more interesting. It would actually be more interesting if every time you attempted it, you were guaranteed to lose all equipped gear. This would then become a raid where everyone is in the best cheap disposable gear they are willing to lose. Since you know you will lose your gear, no one brings their best gear. Everyone's equipment will change between each run, keeping it fresh and challenging, as well as removing surplus items from the economy.

    But don't get too caught up in this one variant version of one idea. My main point is still that we need diversity in raid design as well as more dynamic challenges to keep them interesting.
    • 118 posts
    March 30, 2020 12:05 PM PDT

    Ive never played an mmo that had only those types of enemies as raid bosses, so i dont think its something to worry about.

    • 118 posts
    March 30, 2020 12:08 PM PDT

    losing gear upon death is a horrible idea and i hope to never see it.
    Full loot mmos last about a year, people are too toxic now, how many trolls would lose raids for their team and you all lose gear.
    To be the biggest and best mmo you cant lose gear upon.

    Gold and/or xp is fine.