Keno Monster said:The real answer to that would require being critical of Unity, and they will likely never do that, as it would make them look bad for choosing it, and Unity look bad for sucking. :)The question that few people are asking, and nobody is answering, is why after 5 year in unity, the team is being required to manually create basic world assets because of performance issues? We heard talk over and over from VR that unity was going to be fantastic for performance and that VR and Unity themselves were working together to really make this game a great partnership with the engine...and 5 years later they can't use the $2.99 moss package on the unity store?
Keno Monster said:philo said:Joppa has said at least a few times that he encourages constructive critisicm. They want to hear it.
To tell those being critical that they shouldn't be is far worse than those who are giving feedback, whether positive or negative.
Please don't be that person who is trying to silence others who have concerns. It isn't your place and you are only making things worse.
I love transparency and I love accountability, and I believe both are necessary and very helpful for our team...
Don't ever stop pushing us to be and do better as a Development Team, both in the quality of our work and the quality of our communication.
- Joppa
February 16, 2015
Thanks keno, that is the first time I remember it mentioned. Just so people dont think that is old info from 2015 it was mentioned again in a stream not to long ago.
vjek said:Keno Monster said:The real answer to that would require being critical of Unity, and they will likely never do that, as it would make them look bad for choosing it, and Unity look bad for sucking. :)The question that few people are asking, and nobody is answering, is why after 5 year in unity, the team is being required to manually create basic world assets because of performance issues? We heard talk over and over from VR that unity was going to be fantastic for performance and that VR and Unity themselves were working together to really make this game a great partnership with the engine...and 5 years later they can't use the $2.99 moss package on the unity store?
I suspect, given I've seen this with other projects and Unity, that it's great for demo's, but not so much for prod. Making a single player game? Unity makes that trivial. There are, if not dozens, hundreds of new cross platform single player Unity games on Steam, GoG, and more, in the past 5 years. Just stupidly large numbers, very high quality, of all kinds, except MMORPGs.
There's a ... set of requirements that MMOs have that are exceedingly challenging to satisfy. Among them? The ability have between 0 and 1000 concurrent players, PER ZONE, with seamless & instant handoffs between zones. Navmesh pathfinding and perception for hundreds of NPCs, all running scripts. Up to thousands of light, sound, texture, particle emitters, along with dynamic yet persistent stateful interactives. Parented triggers. Static triggers. Dynamic triggers. Volumetric triggers. Asynchronous, on demand parented dynamic volumetric triggers, on NPCs! The ability to have 60+ FPS despite scene complexity changing from zero animated models to 200 animated models in the viewport, at arbitrary distances, with between 0 and 200 particle effects both emitting from and affecting those models. And you MUST have sub 100ms latency, to/from anywhere in North America, at minimum, when crossing the continent creates a minimum 50ms of latency, but your servers are regional. Up to the second atomic DB transactions with near-instant rollback, in the case of a zone crash. And more. It's a long list, and Unity is not up to the task, out of the box.
You can ignore the requirements and proceed (LoA, PFO, Shroud, more) but performance suffers, or you're forced to make extremely unpopular choices that directly affect your players.
The next time I go through this rollercoster ride (as I've been through it 4-5 times now, with varying games) my advice at the kickstarter is going to be consistent and persistent: To reach the point at which you will charge your customers a subscription, for persistence? Greybox the world, only. No textures. No lights. No shaders. No animations. No equipment. No weapons. No armor. No race models. No humanoid models. No sounds. No music. Primitives only for avatars. No custom models of any kind. Then, iterate with your volunteer testing community for your primary game loop balance until the point at which your skills, classes, races, effects, and loops (combat, crafting, x, y, z, more) are reasonably good. THEN move to charging for persistence. THEN attend to the art/pretty/graphics/sound/music/creative side of things.
Six years isn't enough time? You're doing it wrong. EQ1 could have been built from scratch in twice the time Pantheon has had deveopers working on it. Revise history all you like, say it's only been 3 years! Then, where is the EQ1 equivalent? I am often critical, but it's only because I know it can be done better, and has been done better, historically. Step up or step off.
Nice guess Vjek. But the more probably issue is the development cycle is outlasting the Unity version they started on.
I have seen a number of studios run into this where the verison of Unity they started developing their game with is long gone. And to get current requires a lot of rewriting.
It's more of any issue with small studios w/o Unity experts.
I saw a popular small studio game recently experience a year or so of massive rewrites for their alpha game they started in 2013. They had to bring in an expert, maybe two, as the primaries no longer understood or were proficient in how Unity had changed over the five years since their original build. They needed to get compatible with Unity2018 so they could fix bugs they couldn't get past as well as take advantage of all the new Unity features and functions that had been added over the five years.
No moss is growing on Unity. Miss a year, miss a lot.
I know it hurt a project I was involved with when our Unity guy left to actually take a job with Unity. And we weren't a small studio.
vjek said:Keno Monster said:The real answer to that would require being critical of Unity, and they will likely never do that, as it would make them look bad for choosing it, and Unity look bad for sucking. :)The question that few people are asking, and nobody is answering, is why after 5 year in unity, the team is being required to manually create basic world assets because of performance issues? We heard talk over and over from VR that unity was going to be fantastic for performance and that VR and Unity themselves were working together to really make this game a great partnership with the engine...and 5 years later they can't use the $2.99 moss package on the unity store?
I suspect, given I've seen this with other projects and Unity, that it's great for demo's, but not so much for prod. Making a single player game? Unity makes that trivial. There are, if not dozens, hundreds of new cross platform single player Unity games on Steam, GoG, and more, in the past 5 years. Just stupidly large numbers, very high quality, of all kinds, except MMORPGs.
There's a ... set of requirements that MMOs have that are exceedingly challenging to satisfy. Among them? The ability have between 0 and 1000 concurrent players, PER ZONE, with seamless & instant handoffs between zones. Navmesh pathfinding and perception for hundreds of NPCs, all running scripts. Up to thousands of light, sound, texture, particle emitters, along with dynamic yet persistent stateful interactives. Parented triggers. Static triggers. Dynamic triggers. Volumetric triggers. Asynchronous, on demand parented dynamic volumetric triggers, on NPCs! The ability to have 60+ FPS despite scene complexity changing from zero animated models to 200 animated models in the viewport, at arbitrary distances, with between 0 and 200 particle effects both emitting from and affecting those models. And you MUST have sub 100ms latency, to/from anywhere in North America, at minimum, when crossing the continent creates a minimum 50ms of latency, but your servers are regional. Up to the second atomic DB transactions with near-instant rollback, in the case of a zone crash. And more. It's a long list, and Unity is not up to the task, out of the box.
You can ignore the requirements and proceed (LoA, PFO, Shroud, more) but performance suffers, or you're forced to make extremely unpopular choices that directly affect your players.
The next time I go through this rollercoster ride (as I've been through it 4-5 times now, with varying games) my advice at the kickstarter is going to be consistent and persistent: To reach the point at which you will charge your customers a subscription, for persistence? Greybox the world, only. No textures. No lights. No shaders. No animations. No equipment. No weapons. No armor. No race models. No humanoid models. No sounds. No music. Primitives only for avatars. No custom models of any kind. Then, iterate with your volunteer testing community for your primary game loop balance until the point at which your skills, classes, races, effects, and loops (combat, crafting, x, y, z, more) are reasonably good. THEN move to charging for persistence. THEN attend to the art/pretty/graphics/sound/music/creative side of things.
Six years isn't enough time? You're doing it wrong. EQ1 could have been built from scratch in twice the time Pantheon has had deveopers working on it. Revise history all you like, say it's only been 3 years! Then, where is the EQ1 equivalent? I am often critical, but it's only because I know it can be done better, and has been done better, historically. Step up or step off.
Interesting approach, and would be great in a perfect world.... I would imagine though that VR did not pull the same bank via crowdfunding or even investments like Chris Roberts did. Some luxuries have to be foregone with the developmental process. You have to remember the development of games like this (primarily crowdfunded) requires visual progress to keep people engaged and to continually garner more interest for more pledges and/or investments.
It's a small team, so you have to give them credit for what they have accomplished up to this point and look forward for the things yet to come. Honest question: Are you not looking forward to getting your hands on the game and checking out the stuff that they have shown in the streams?
The root issue of peoples uproar in the forums as of late seems progress is not moving fast enough.
All I can say to that is we all seem very passionate about this game and its amazing to see so many people from all walks of life looking forward to diving headfirst into whatever it is that drew each of us here. We're all on the same boat though, so if you get overwhelmed with the wait, please dont rock it. Do yourself a favor and take a break! Wait for an update email or check back in every couple of months.
arazons said: ... Honest question: Are you not looking forward to getting your hands on the game and checking out the stuff that they have shown in the streams? ...Personally? I'm less concerned about testing access, and more concerned about their public design goals and implemented design decisions.
X
vjek said:Instead, we get console friendly non-buff 8 LAS bars, no decisions on characters per account, no decisions on crafting professions, wildly inapporopriate graphical quality given the team size, no map update in 3+ years, no FAQ update in 3+ years, no colored mana information, no progeny information, no climates (actual weather?) distinct from Environments/Atmospheres, unclear pledge rewards, no spellcheck on the forums (but spell check on private messages), no forum update for 5+ years, no crafting or harvesting demonstrated in 6 years, illogical class/race choices, no dynamic encounters, anti-social mechanics by design, and many of the features, tenets, and differences ignored for years.
They will have spent at least 2 years on Project Faerthale and it's goals are unrealized. For pity's sake, that should have been an expansion, at that rate. Seriously, consider... 2 years on a handful of zones or mechanics? That's an expansion amount of time & effort, and there's no base game. Where are the three continents? What's the target number of zones for launch? What's the target number of zones per continent, at launch? Some of the most basic public design goals about the project are unknown, six years in.
Shroud taught me to never donate to a kickstarter more than the retail cost of the game. Pantheon has taught me to never donate to another kickstarter or crowd-funded project, ever. So, at least I've got that lesson learned. ;)X
you forget the most egregious things of all: the lore of dark mur has been changed without update to the lore page. this makes syronai a complete villian. syronais rest should be called nythir's rest.
that mad scientist doesn't deserve a monument!
Keno Monster said:The question that few people are asking, and nobody is answering, is why after 5 year in unity, the team is being required to manually create basic world assets because of performance issues? We heard talk over and over from VR that unity was going to be fantastic for performance and that VR and Unity themselves were working together to really make this game a great partnership with the engine...and 5 years later they can't use the $2.99 moss package on the unity store?
If you want to see what a small team can do with Unity and wholesale use of its assets, go try Reign of Darkness. It is impressive, for a one-man-band made product. Only in that context, though. By any other measure, it isn't a good experience.
Funny how some heavily criticised VR's first showcase, Halnir Cave, because it made such good use of the Unity assets and now VR are criticised for not using the Unity assets...
I think Jimmy spoke about this some in a recent round table. I'm not an expert in the technical field, but he clearly is, and explains why the majority of Unity assets just aren't usable even if you wanted to. Quite technical stuff about the way they are encoded and whatnot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4cbyW0WN7Q
Also Joppa spoke on PantheonPlusYou recently to criticism of hand-cranking high-def art assets https://www.twitch.tv/videos/566260674.
Not that people have believed the devs instead of inventing theories before now! ;^)
I'm sure Unity has saved a lot of time in many areas for the relatively small VR team. I'm also sure that if they used it too much it would really show and not in a good way.
I work in a small team that has a successful project based on a third party's infratructure. There are pros and cons. We save a *lot* of effort by using it, but we gain a *lot* from the modifications and additions we have developed ourselves. There are pros and cons when the third party update the infrastructure and we have to cope with changes, but also benefit from the newer version.
I don't doubt that developing on Unity has similar pros and cons.
disposalist said:vjek said:Logic has no power here, Xxar.
Lol. Logic. Ok. Here's some.
Yes, the website is subpar and may be costing VR some backers (if they ignore YouTube, Twitter, Reddit, MMORPG website articles, etc)
VR aren't doing nothing, though. The work they are doing while not updating the website will no doubt gain backers when revealed.
The negative posting on this forum will be costing VR backers.
The same people complaining about the website losing VR backers are making other pessimistic, less justified negative posts on the forum also losing VR backers.
What are the pros of negative posting? Any? Really?
So, what, logically, is a good course, regarding negative posting here?
I'll answer my own question, because I'm pretty good at following logic: The negative posting has no benefit and can only hurt the community and the game, so it's best to not do it, if you can only be pessimistic.
But no one is suggesting people shouldn't be critical. Just do it in a positive way, or at least less negative, ie. give feedback and suggest improvements.
If you find yourself drifting into posts that take your criticism, mix in a whole load of worst-case assumptions and pessimism and result in a negative, conspiracy-laden rant, maybe re-word it...
I like and agree with Logic and facts>feels point of view. Also, relax people!! I don't think we need a day one patch because folks want the devs to rush it out the door right away?
disposalist said:Keno Monster said:The question that few people are asking, and nobody is answering, is why after 5 year in unity, the team is being required to manually create basic world assets because of performance issues? We heard talk over and over from VR that unity was going to be fantastic for performance and that VR and Unity themselves were working together to really make this game a great partnership with the engine...and 5 years later they can't use the $2.99 moss package on the unity store?
If you want to see what a small team can do with Unity and wholesale use of its assets, go try Reign of Darkness. It is impressive, for a one-man-band made product. Only in that context, though. By any other measure, it isn't a good experience.
Funny how some heavily criticised VR's first showcase, Halnir Cave, because it made such good use of the Unity assets and now VR are criticised for not using the Unity assets...
I think Jimmy spoke about this some in a recent round table. I'm not an expert in the technical field, but he clearly is, and explains why the majority of Unity assets just aren't usable even if you wanted to. Quite technical stuff about the way they are encoded and whatnot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4cbyW0WN7Q
Also Joppa spoke on PantheonPlusYou recently to criticism of hand-cranking high-def art assets https://www.twitch.tv/videos/566260674.
Not that people have believed the devs instead of inventing theories before now! ;^)
I'm sure Unity has saved a lot of time in many areas for the relatively small VR team. I'm also sure that if they used it too much it would really show and not in a good way.
I work in a small team that has a successful project based on a third party's infratructure. There are pros and cons. We save a *lot* of effort by using it, but we gain a *lot* from the modifications and additions we have developed ourselves. There are pros and cons when the third party update the infrastructure and we have to cope with changes, but also benefit from the newer version.
I don't doubt that developing on Unity has similar pros and cons.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/blogs/151/133/state-of-the-game-7-9-14
With Unity and all of the plug-ins and tools and tech you can rapidly get to the point where you are really working on the true game itself.
We have the unity store where we can purchase already made art assets. Are we going to ship the game full of purchased assets? Of course not. But, and this is key, the world builder is not gated by the art team, waiting on assets to be created in Maya so he or she can then plug them into their zone. In fact, even though the funding is not there to hire those artists yet, the world builders can proceed and make measurable forward progress. Again, where are we at? We have identified the plug-ins, tools, and tech that work with Unity and built one outdoor zone and one indoor dungeon zone. This process has been documented as well. And we have 4-5 world builders who have begun their first zone. And the map and zone write-ups have begun, but they're not where they should be. Hey, just keeping it real.
Under this plan and with this tech I have hopefully explained why using Unity and the Unity Store is so key to our development plan and the sequence and order within that plan. To be clear, you are going to see a lot of store bought assets in the movies and screenshots probably up until the last year or so of development. This allows the world builders to lay out intricate and challenging dungeons without having to create art assets themselves or wait for a 3d modeler to create them in Maya.
This topic is yet another victim of people going off-topic and will be closed.
Please have some respect for the OP and stick to the topic at hand, going off on opinion-based rants and discussions about something other than the topic of the thread will incur official warnings until this behaviour stops.