Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Cohh thoughts on Pantheon

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    • 132 posts
    March 10, 2020 7:36 AM PDT

    https://clips.twitch.tv/TameHealthySageDerp

    https://clips.twitch.tv/PreciousTalentedMoonOSfrog

    https://clips.twitch.tv/AverageRudePepperoniSuperVinlin

     

    He loves how the game is developing, the mechanics, AP system and abilities.

    He thinks less time should be spent perfecting individual zones and dungeons too much.

    More content is needed and needed more quickly; zones that were vast expanses with roaming mobs in EQ were still fun.

    Pantheon is fun, crazy complex unique zones can always be added after launch (especially if high level).

    • 1962 posts
    March 10, 2020 7:39 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    ...loves how the mechanics, AP system and abilities.

    ...thinks less time should be spent perfecting individual zones and dungeons too much.

    More content is needed and needed more quickly; zones that were vast expanses with roaming mobs in EQ were still fun.

    Pantheon is fun, crazy complex unique zones can always be added after launch (especially if high level).

    This isn't anything alot of us haven't been saying over and over and over for, well, years now. Nice to see their Twitchboy finally saying something.

    • 8 posts
    March 10, 2020 7:59 AM PDT

    Wow.. interesting indeed. That was one of my concerns with Pantheon, the fact that it seems like every single zone is going to have a super complex desing. Sometimes, all a desert needs is to be that, just a desert. There is beauty in simplicity.

    Thanks for the clips!

    • 1359 posts
    March 10, 2020 8:08 AM PDT

    And yet nothing they've shown so far elicits the fear and tension of moving from the lguk dead side zone-in to the safe hallway (or even the ass/sup) without aggro or deaths. ;)
    (with respect to the context of 'complex design')

    • 28 posts
    March 10, 2020 8:30 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/TameHealthySageDerp

    https://clips.twitch.tv/PreciousTalentedMoonOSfrog

    https://clips.twitch.tv/AverageRudePepperoniSuperVinlin

     

    He loves how the game is developing, the mechanics, AP system and abilities.

    He thinks less time should be spent perfecting individual zones and dungeons too much.

    More content is needed and needed more quickly; zones that were vast expanses with roaming mobs in EQ were still fun.

    Pantheon is fun, crazy complex unique zones can always be added after launch (especially if high level).

     

    I love Cohh and how many new eyes he has brought to the game but I fundamentally disagree with his points in those clips.  Quality over quantity 100% of the time. 

    Pantheon has exactly 1 release date.  There will be no do-overs.

    Take your time and do it right.  Quality quality quality 

    • 2718 posts
    March 10, 2020 8:37 AM PDT

    As Vandraad pointed out many of us have been saying that "less is more" if it accelerates release without reducing the "this is a great game" impression that they need to give people starting the game.

    While game mechanics, crafting and the like really do need to be polished at release and the initial zones up to middle level need to be ready, VR can have some zones with minimal content just to make the world look larger than it really is as long as there also are enough zones with real content up to the aforementioned middle levels. As Gavilan said a desert can just be a desert.

    A game with content up to level 30 releasing in a year to me is far better than a game with content up to level 50 releasing in three years. While we play - and pay them - they can work on the next 20 levels.

    But - of course - those 30 levels need to be very well done not an early release out of deperation as with Vanguard. Grayjackgaming is entirely correct with respect to the quality of those hypothetical 30 levels.


    This post was edited by dorotea at March 10, 2020 8:39 AM PDT
    • 416 posts
    March 10, 2020 8:45 AM PDT

    A game with content up to level 30 releasing in a year to me is far better than a game with content up to level 50 releasing in three years. While we play - and pay them - they can work on the next 20 levels.

    The only problem with that is even though MOST OF US would take a year to level to 30, there are a handful of people that would get to level 30 in a month and they tend to be the loud folks.  They'd go posting videos and topics on redit about how incomplete the game is, etc.  That would really hurt the game.  

    • 1359 posts
    March 10, 2020 8:52 AM PDT

    If they're delaying release primarily because they're afraid people will hit the level cap "too quickly"?  It's time to shut the doors.
    That is going to happen no matter what, unless some extremely unpopular precedents (that you really don't want to see) are implemented in Pantheon.

    "Don't let perfection get in the way of good enough."
    Or
    Don't Let the Perfect Be the Enemy of the Good .
    Or
    Dans ses écrits, un sage Italien
    Dit que le mieux est l'ennemi du bien.
    (In his writings, a wise Italian
    says that the best is the enemy of the good)

    • 2718 posts
    March 10, 2020 9:04 AM PDT

    ((The only problem with that is even though MOST OF US would take a year to level to 30, there are a handful of people that would get to level 30 in a month and they tend to be the loud folks.  They'd go posting videos and topics on redit about how incomplete the game is, etc.  That would really hurt the game. ))

    A valid point if the game released with a maximum level of 50 but no content at all over 30. Perhaps a less valid point if the game released with a maximum level of 30.

    Anyone that says "I got to 30 and have nothing to do Pantheon is awful" is entirely irrelevant to this decision since the very same person would get to 50 a week later and post "I got to 50 and have nothing to do Pantheon is awful".  

    • 487 posts
    March 10, 2020 9:25 AM PDT
    Yep, how many times have so many of said this exact thing. CONTENT is KING, no one cares about trees and fronds.
    • 1291 posts
    March 10, 2020 9:34 AM PDT

    Fragile said: Yep, how many times have so many of said this exact thing. CONTENT is KING, no one cares about trees and fronds.

    speak for yourself.  i happen to like 21 pages of moss growing on a tree.

    • 338 posts
    March 10, 2020 9:34 AM PDT

    The thought of VR releasing this game without content throughout all levels is laughable at best. The results would be catastrophic, as a large percentage of people will fly through content and when they realize the content is lacking, there will be bad press everywhere. It could and probably would kill the game shortly after launch.

    0/10 - will not support.

    • 416 posts
    March 10, 2020 9:38 AM PDT

    A valid point if the game released with a maximum level of 50 but no content at all over 30. Perhaps a less valid point if the game released with a maximum level of 30.

    Agreed, I almost added that in my post as well.  For some reason the standard level cap at release has been 50 or higher ... I don't know where that standard came from but I also wonder how people would take it if the game was released with a level cap of 30.  I personally would be happy to start paying my subscription with a level cap of 30 knowing that in some expansion we'd get to keep progressing.

    • 164 posts
    March 10, 2020 9:41 AM PDT

    I don't really care for Cohh, I find him to be fake and the things he does during the streams just take away from what the dev's are trying to show. However I have to agree with what he's saying in these clips. They need to just hunker down and make the game, not every zone / dungeon needs to be super beautiful amazing. The gameplay is what will attract and keep players, not the graphics

    • 1962 posts
    March 10, 2020 9:49 AM PDT

    Fragile said: Yep, how many times have so many of said this exact thing. CONTENT is KING, no one cares about trees and fronds.

    And yet, we have direct evidence of time, effort and money spent on iterations of things that just begs the question:  Which one of these scenes is best? What was wrong with the others?

    From the last stream:

    Just look at how many small little details, little fiddly bits were changed on just that log.  Ignore the fact all the trees are changed each time, or that the mountain in the back is redone several times, or the vines hanging off the tree in the back left are changed.  Just looking at the log I have to wonder how much time did it take to go through these 3 iterations?  Was it worth it?  Would anybody look at any of these scenes and say that one is definitely the best?  That if the game were release with any of these that they would be disappointed?

    VR didnt' stop here. They didn't stop with 'That looks good"..they spent more time, more money to get to this when there was nothing inherently wrong with any of the first three.

    It was said on Discord:  10 good zones are far better than 2 great ones.  That last picture looks great, but that is just 1 scene in 1 zone.  There are many many many dozens of zones left go.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at March 10, 2020 9:52 AM PDT
    • 360 posts
    March 10, 2020 10:04 AM PDT

    this is what ALL of us have been saying. I would rather have a good game with OK graphics than these perfected graphics and nothing to play. 

    release with the level cap at lev 35-40. save the Raid crap for an expansion. that expansion will be WAY easier to make wihen you have  monthly income and people Playing your game. 

    they could even drop features and I would be happy. forget the acclimation junk. save it for raids later AFTER RELEASE. etc 

    get a game out. sometime this century or just forget it and tell us the game is done and isn't being worked on any more. 

    • 55 posts
    March 10, 2020 10:05 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    https://clips.twitch.tv/TameHealthySageDerp

    https://clips.twitch.tv/PreciousTalentedMoonOSfrog

    https://clips.twitch.tv/AverageRudePepperoniSuperVinlin

     

    He loves how the game is developing, the mechanics, AP system and abilities.

    He thinks less time should be spent perfecting individual zones and dungeons too much.

    More content is needed and needed more quickly; zones that were vast expanses with roaming mobs in EQ were still fun.

    Pantheon is fun, crazy complex unique zones can always be added after launch (especially if high level).

     

    I couldn't agree more with a lot of this. Primarily the complexity of zones and mechanics.

    The challenge in classic MMOs/EQ came from timing respawns, pacing and managing resources, managing your personal reputation (being known as someone that wasn't a fool or ninja looter was always helpful in advancing...)  and figuring out new tricks (like how Monk FD pulling wasn't it's intended use, or kiting or root rotting). That's not to say there wasn't a lot more that contributed to the challenge, but at it's core it had a pretty simplistic base starting point.  

    I've spent decades in EQ, in the face of games with much more complex zones and gimmicky boss mechanics. EQ was essentially a 3D MUD - and that was great for me. The primary and often repeated comment that comes to mind, and I'm sure we've all heard is, "I'd be happy with a reskinned EQ". 

    While I'd like to see expansion on what EQ and classic MMOs were and could have been, especially in terms of 'World Vs Game', it's that classic experience that I'd like to see expanded on, I'm not personally looking for a classic style MMO that's trying to play catch up with the current crop of expected game mechanics. Keep in mind that's a general statement and concern, not something I've actually witnessed in Pantheons development yet - but overly choregraphed boss fights always make the corner of my lip turn up in an unsightly scowl of disapproval and I don't want to be that guy.

    Going off the rails a little bit with my focus on boss mechanics I know, so to sum it up I'd say I like when you can and should learn bosses special attacks/abilities/strengths and weaknesses, things to be aware of as you just never know...and much much less a fan of 'Go watch the youtube video to learn the choreographed mechanics of this encounter and you know it for life". At 80% do this, at 75% do THIS, at 70% don't do THAT! etc.

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Kyridel at March 10, 2020 10:05 AM PDT
    • 164 posts
    March 10, 2020 10:11 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Fragile said: Yep, how many times have so many of said this exact thing. CONTENT is KING, no one cares about trees and fronds.

    And yet, we have direct evidence of time, effort and money spent on iterations of things that just begs the question:  Which one of these scenes is best? What was wrong with the others?

    From the last stream:

    [ Pictures Removed to not clutter post ]

    Just look at how many small little details, little fiddly bits were changed on just that log.  Ignore the fact all the trees are changed each time, or that the mountain in the back is redone several times, or the vines hanging off the tree in the back left are changed.  Just looking at the log I have to wonder how much time did it take to go through these 3 iterations?  Was it worth it?  Would anybody look at any of these scenes and say that one is definitely the best?  That if the game were release with any of these that they would be disappointed?

    VR didnt' stop here. They didn't stop with 'That looks good"..they spent more time, more money to get to this when there was nothing inherently wrong with any of the first three.

     

    It was said on Discord:  10 good zones are far better than 2 great ones.  That last picture looks great, but that is just 1 scene in 1 zone.  There are many many many dozens of zones left go.

    I made this point in another thread, these pictures were shown to give us examples of them tweaking the log. But if you look at everything else in the zone, its all completely re-done in every picture. That takes a lot of time, and they shouldn't be constantly changing the base layout of the zone over and over. They should design these zones with art sketches first and then model them, the same as everything else. One would assume they are, but these pictures prove otherwise and it's simply a waste of time to be constantly changing your zone geography.

     

    • 171 posts
    March 10, 2020 10:29 AM PDT

    I just wanted to jump in and remind everyone that VR is building a World, not a game.  In order for this world to breath, everything must be present.  If you start leaving out details in favor of quicker release you will lose the idea of the world and it will fall down to the status of 'just another game'.  Brad's visions are not games, the are real, living, worlds that people experience, influence, change and are changed by.  They create community, history, relationships.  

    Worlds are not built overnight, despite what some religions might say, and must never be rushed to completion; glossing over the details.  If you want the true Pantheon: RotF experience, you must be patient.  If you want 'just another game', pick any of the dozens of other mmorpgs that release every year and fail miserably and go see what it feels like to play a rushed game.


    This post was edited by Kargen at March 10, 2020 10:30 AM PDT
    • 2718 posts
    March 10, 2020 10:41 AM PDT

    ((I just wanted to jump in and remind everyone that VR is building a World, not a game.))

     

    I agree. My argument is for a full and complete world without compromises on the quality of any zone. But in a game where progress is intended to be slow and laborious it is possible to release with less "endgame" content than in a game where people will hit "endgame" in a week.

    • 1291 posts
    March 10, 2020 10:45 AM PDT

    a zone is like a bob ross painting.  gotta make sure all the happy little trees are in place.  once the paint is on the canvas... that's how it should remain.

     

    i'd wait another year for 10 great zones rather than have 20 good zones, but then again, i'm a man that prefers few high quality things rather than lots of okay things.

    • 260 posts
    March 10, 2020 10:53 AM PDT

    stellarmind said:

    a zone is like a bob ross painting.  gotta make sure all the happy little trees are in place.  once the paint is on the canvas... that's how it should remain.

     

    i'd wait another year for 10 great zones rather than have 20 good zones, but then again, i'm a man that prefers few high quality things rather than lots of okay things.

     

    Lets give this little guy a friend... aah.. there we go.

    • 487 posts
    March 10, 2020 10:53 AM PDT
    Except Bob Ross could knock out an entire painting in 30 minutes, because he knew what was or wasn't important.
    • 260 posts
    March 10, 2020 11:03 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    Fragile said: Yep, how many times have so many of said this exact thing. CONTENT is KING, no one cares about trees and fronds.

    And yet, we have direct evidence of time, effort and money spent on iterations of things that just begs the question:  Which one of these scenes is best? What was wrong with the others?

    It was said on Discord:  10 good zones are far better than 2 great ones.  That last picture looks great, but that is just 1 scene in 1 zone.  There are many many many dozens of zones left go.

     

    Just because we are seeing this one spruced up scene (and shown the iterative process that always occurs in world design in the process) it doesnt mean that there are not a 100 other scenes just like it that are ready to go like this one. I think its nice that they took the time and had the forsight to take screen shots from the same location, over time, to show us the work that goes into making a quality scene.

     

    Art and asset design is always an iterative process from AAA titles to indie studios developing an MMO. (So is the systems and programming work involved).

     

    I am confident that they have more done than what they are showing. And I would prefer they continue working rather than having to stop to show every area and zone they are working on.

    • 487 posts
    March 10, 2020 11:13 AM PDT
    arazons said: I am confident that they have more done than what they are showing. And I would prefer they continue working rather than having to stop to show every area and zone they are working on.


    Except we know that they don't want to start Alpha until all of Kingsreach was interconnected and gray-boxed or base skinned at minimum. If they had more (much more), don't you think they would have moved on from showing the Murk (that's not close to finished) to the next phase aka Alpha? Where they can essentially explode in their pants from the amount of money & donations that would come from the exposure and new availability? Which in turn, increases their ability to produce - from hiring more people.