Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Cohh thoughts on Pantheon

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    • 1618 posts
    March 17, 2020 11:29 AM PDT

    Don't you all get tired of being armchair game developers? Yes, the game is moving slowly and we all want to see it out ASAP. But, seriously, the forums lately have devolved to nothing but the community pretending to experts on everything, telling VR what they NEED to do or not do.

    Its bad enough that all the online constitutional scholars have now become infectious disease experts. But, these forums are nothing but:

    Succesful game developers telling VR what is or is not necessary in the final product:

    HR experts telling VR who they should or should not hire;

    Efficiency experts telling VR what is or is not a waste of time;

    Conflict and life coaches telling VR how many buttons will make a fight challenging.

     

    Its ridiculous. 

    • 2756 posts
    March 17, 2020 11:41 AM PDT

    Ghool said:

    I don't post very often, as I'm a patient guy, and just like to see what the team is up to.

    So, I will say that development is moving at a glacial crawl. Is that bad or good? Not sure yet. Everyone seems to be saying 'Quality over Quantity', but I think the real issue we should be focusing on is - Balance. What I mean is that the quality is obviously there. But, is it too much for how long development is taking? I'd say, yes. Yes it is. However, you have a massive community of folks willing to help showcase things, and a couple massive fans of the game with YouTube channels.

    Sure, they're not as big as Cohh, but I think I'd rather watch a stream with some one like Bazgrim playing rathert than Cohh. Why? Because Baz's excitment and positivity for the game are palpable. This transfers to those watching, and those watching aren't watching because we aren't interested. I think more fan channels need to be included in future gameplay and exploration streams. And besides, I'm pretty sure Baz will have a better idea of how to play than Cohh. Just sayin'.

    Secondly, that website. Guys. Seriously.

    With such a massive community that's willing to help promote and market your game, why is VR not recruiting folks to help with simple things like the web page? Sure, it's volunteer work, but I'm almost certain that there's some one in this community that could at least help a little with that. I mean, when was the website last updated? It's in need of, at the very least, some more current information.

    I like Cohh's streams, but I'd rather see one of the true fans get in there and show us what's what. It'd be way more exciting for both them, and the community.

    Agreed and there is a streamer program being worked on that will do just that, we have been told. Yes, it was put forward a *long* time ago, like many other things. Project Farthaele has pushed out many things, but that doesn't mean progress is slow, just that they have decided to finish a big chunk in one go rather than lots of little chunks. The little chunk method might have allowed for more show-and-tell, but that is less efficient and, for a small team, the big chunk method is probably actually getting more done, if not giving as much opportunity to show it.

    • 1992 posts
    March 17, 2020 1:33 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    Don't you all get tired of being armchair game developers?

    .....

    Its ridiculous. 

    Totally agree.

    • 379 posts
    March 17, 2020 8:37 PM PDT

    Keep in mind Joppa was a high school teacher turned Music Maker before Brad moved him to Creative Director. All it takes is brains, creativity,  gaming experience, and understanding of mechanics. Obviously having more personal qualities help, but this is entire team comes from all walks of life pre-Pantheon development. Brad, Corey, and Jason are largely the experienced ones and now just Jason remains.

    When Albert Einstein turned 13, he discovered the violin sonatas of Mozart, whereupon he became enamored of Mozart's compositions and studied music more willingly. Einstein taught himself to play without "ever practicing systematically". He said that "love is a better teacher than a sense of duty." At age 17, he was heard by a school examiner in Aarau while playing Beethoven's violin sonatas. The examiner stated afterward that his playing was "remarkable and revealing of 'great insight'". What struck the examiner, writes Botstein, was that Einstein "displayed a deep love of the music, a quality that was and remains in short supply. Music possessed an unusual meaning for this student."

    Just because you have a title or label as one thing, doesn't mean you need to pigeonhole yourself in it. Passion is a large part of success.

    • 1273 posts
    March 17, 2020 8:53 PM PDT

    Fragile said:

    Keep in mind Joppa was a high school teacher 

    Really?  Do you happen to know what subject he taught?  I'm just curious...I'm also a high school teacher.  But I plan to keep my job :)  I have no desire to go join some startup haha.

    • 379 posts
    March 17, 2020 9:11 PM PDT

    He didn't say what subject. Maybe band? I dunno

    • 78 posts
    March 18, 2020 3:16 AM PDT

     

    If you think this post is about being "armchair developers" then you've missed the point.

    What this post is about; it is a very targetting survey people of Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen target audience and this is a testimony on what your target audience really wants.

     

    If I'm making a product I need to pay close attention to what the receiving end really need. Maybe I'd save a lot of money if I know exactly what to deliver. This is what this post is about; it's a survey for the devs to relocate their resources. Game design, game production is another story. But if the people in charge are making Brad's mistake in 2004 then it's our job to ring the alarm and remind them to focus.

     

    To summarize; keep doing what you're doing VR just don't be too perfectionist about a release or early access version for our own sake. I don't want to see this project fail.

     

    • 346 posts
    March 18, 2020 4:34 PM PDT

    Ranarius said:

    Really?  Do you happen to know what subject he taught?  I'm just curious...I'm also a high school teacher.  But I plan to keep my job :)  I have no desire to go join some startup haha.

    Archery? Jokes aside, we had mandatory archery for PE as part of the curriculum and our teacher looked like Joppa today, beard and all. Although, that was back when Joppa was likely in middle school.

    • 801 posts
    March 19, 2020 7:38 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    Don't you all get tired of being armchair game developers? Yes, the game is moving slowly and we all want to see it out ASAP. But, seriously, the forums lately have devolved to nothing but the community pretending to experts on everything, telling VR what they NEED to do or not do.

    Its bad enough that all the online constitutional scholars have now become infectious disease experts. But, these forums are nothing but:

    Succesful game developers telling VR what is or is not necessary in the final product:

    HR experts telling VR who they should or should not hire;

    Efficiency experts telling VR what is or is not a waste of time;

    Conflict and life coaches telling VR how many buttons will make a fight challenging.

     

    Its ridiculous. 

     

    LOL beef, what ticked you off today? Just FYI some of us are not kids playing Xbox games. We been around the block as long as Brad was. Some of us do have degrees too. So take some of what people say with a grain of salt, because i am sure the Devs do too.

    • 245 posts
    March 19, 2020 8:36 PM PDT

    Laura said:

     

    If you think this post is about being "armchair developers" then you've missed the point.

    What this post is about; it is a very targetting survey people of Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen target audience and this is a testimony on what your target audience really wants.

     

    If I'm making a product I need to pay close attention to what the receiving end really need. Maybe I'd save a lot of money if I know exactly what to deliver. This is what this post is about; it's a survey for the devs to relocate their resources. Game design, game production is another story. But if the people in charge are making Brad's mistake in 2004 then it's our job to ring the alarm and remind them to focus.

     

    To summarize; keep doing what you're doing VR just don't be too perfectionist about a release or early access version for our own sake. I don't want to see this project fail.

     

     

    It's good to see that at least one person in this thread actually understands it.

     

    That at least one person can stand back and see the big picture, to be objective and evidence based.

     

    Too many people here and on the forums in general react subjectively with their personal opinion too often.

    • 370 posts
    March 19, 2020 11:51 PM PDT

    I'm not saying they are at this point, but I believe it does occur with art. At a certain point you just have to say "this is good enough". You could spend years fine tuning every little pixel on every rock or tree, but at a certain point you just have to accept what you've created and move on to the next area.

     

    • 2756 posts
    March 20, 2020 3:30 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    Laura said:

    If you think this post is about being "armchair developers" then you've missed the point.

    What this post is about; it is a very targetting survey people of Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen target audience and this is a testimony on what your target audience really wants.

    If I'm making a product I need to pay close attention to what the receiving end really need. Maybe I'd save a lot of money if I know exactly what to deliver. This is what this post is about; it's a survey for the devs to relocate their resources. Game design, game production is another story. But if the people in charge are making Brad's mistake in 2004 then it's our job to ring the alarm and remind them to focus.

    To summarize; keep doing what you're doing VR just don't be too perfectionist about a release or early access version for our own sake. I don't want to see this project fail.

    It's good to see that at least one person in this thread actually understands it.

    That at least one person can stand back and see the big picture, to be objective and evidence based.

    Too many people here and on the forums in general react subjectively with their personal opinion too often.

    Giving ones subjective feelings and opinions is fine and I'm sure the devs want to see that too. Better to have reasons and not just "I HATE THAT!", but even that is ok if you leave it there.

    The problem comes when people insist *their* subjective opinion is actually objective fact and/or that other people are 'wrong' and then repeatedly try and beat them into submission.

    But that's just my opinion ;^)


    This post was edited by disposalist at March 20, 2020 3:31 AM PDT
    • 7 posts
    March 21, 2020 8:36 AM PDT
    As a backer, the slow progress is frustrating. Beta was originally slated for 2017. When they missed that, I believe they said alpha in 2018. We are still in PA in 2020. Why aren’t the devs giving a timeline? I can’t imagine the funding is there for another year of development.
    • 4 posts
    March 21, 2020 9:05 AM PDT

    Stop funding them! They will open it up to alpha or they will close the doors.

    • 287 posts
    March 22, 2020 11:42 AM PDT

    Mickey said:

    Stop funding them! They will open it up to alpha or they will close the doors.

    That is the least reasonable thing I've seen posted on these forums.  You're free to stop funding them (assuming you ever contributed at all) just as everyone else is free to do as they please. But most of us are here to watch a game be developed, one that promises to fill a huge gap in the MMORPG market that we've all waited for for so long. Waiting a little longer isn't going to kill anyone.

    And I don't want to play the game if it's not ready to be played, even in alpha.  You probably don't understand where the game even is at this moment nor do you understand how pre-alphas work if you think VR can just open the flood gates and all will be just fine.  Also, (almost) nobody here wants to see VR "close the doors".

    Please take your toxic attitude elsewhere.

    • 2756 posts
    March 23, 2020 2:59 AM PDT

    Kaladek said: As a backer, the slow progress is frustrating. Beta was originally slated for 2017. When they missed that, I believe they said alpha in 2018. We are still in PA in 2020. Why aren’t the devs giving a timeline? I can’t imagine the funding is there for another year of development.

    When did they give that timeline? Must have been before the fail and restart of 2016? They pretty much abandoned the whole thing and started again which an improved but much more ambitious project (I believe - I didn't get involved until just after the restart).

    The reason they don't give timelines is the same reason almost all games developers don't (until right near the end): Development is hugely unpredictable, especially in a game with public funding greatly related to the speed of progress. People just use the dates to bash them and it can only lead to forcing a premature release with all the damage that causes.

    • 844 posts
    March 23, 2020 7:32 AM PDT

    I'm not sure what the OP had in mind with their post other than using some comments Cohh made to prop up a personal opinion.

    Cohh has a large following, which I don't really understand. He's professional enough technically, but do I care to watch him endless hours every day? No.

    And more to the point, Cohh knows nothing about game development. He just plays games.

    That gives him insight into - wait for it - Game Playing.

     

    This thread has gone in many directions but the most common is this growing drumbeat of 'what the hell is going on?'.

     

    I  spent many years in the game industry, including working with people from SoE, Vanguard, DaoC and many other games. We all agree on a couple obvious facts.

    -VR has nowhere near enough staff (as far as we can tell) to produce an MMO in any realistic period of time. (Typically we're talking hundreds of people, not tens.)
    -Losing Brad can only have a negative impact on funding, pledges and the marketing front-end.

    Our general belief is VR has been creating a 'proof of concept' for a large studio or other investors willing to step in and take the game the rest of the way and get built.

    This is not a new thing. Brad's last two games got finished the same way.

     

    Unfortunately a real nail in the coffin may be this Covid19. With the financial markets in turmoil and companies scrambling to protect their assets, discretionary money for a niche MMO to get built may have dried up for any forseeable future. Not to mention potential pledgers, who might now decide not to pledge unsure of if they will have another paycheck.

    Alternatively, with so many people now turning to the PC for entertainment in these times, it may prove to be a windfall for some games. Pantheon might become an attractive project for a company looking to take advantage.

     

    Bottom line I guess is if you've pledged like me, you're in for the ride. Good or bad, right or wrong.

     


    This post was edited by zewtastic at March 23, 2020 7:33 AM PDT
    • 201 posts
    March 23, 2020 1:46 PM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    I'm not sure what the OP had in mind with their post other than using some comments Cohh made to prop up a personal opinion.

    Cohh has a large following, which I don't really understand. He's professional enough technically, but do I care to watch him endless hours every day? No.

    And more to the point, Cohh knows nothing about game development. He just plays games.

    That gives him insight into - wait for it - Game Playing.

     

    This thread has gone in many directions but the most common is this growing drumbeat of 'what the hell is going on?'.

     

    I  spent many years in the game industry, including working with people from SoE, Vanguard, DaoC and many other games. We all agree on a couple obvious facts.

    -VR has nowhere near enough staff (as far as we can tell) to produce an MMO in any realistic period of time. (Typically we're talking hundreds of people, not tens.)
    -Losing Brad can only have a negative impact on funding, pledges and the marketing front-end.

    Our general belief is VR has been creating a 'proof of concept' for a large studio or other investors willing to step in and take the game the rest of the way and get built.

    This is not a new thing. Brad's last two games got finished the same way.

     

    Unfortunately a real nail in the coffin may be this Covid19. With the financial markets in turmoil and companies scrambling to protect their assets, discretionary money for a niche MMO to get built may have dried up for any forseeable future. Not to mention potential pledgers, who might now decide not to pledge unsure of if they will have another paycheck.

    Alternatively, with so many people now turning to the PC for entertainment in these times, it may prove to be a windfall for some games. Pantheon might become an attractive project for a company looking to take advantage.

     

    Bottom line I guess is if you've pledged like me, you're in for the ride. Good or bad, right or wrong.

     

     

    I agree with every word in this post.

    • 245 posts
    March 23, 2020 8:45 PM PDT

    I don't share Cohh's opinion at all Zewtastic, I'm simply providing another perspective.

    Perhaps you could try it, instead of having a very narrow minded view full of assumptions.


    This post was edited by Ezrael at March 23, 2020 8:52 PM PDT
    • 2756 posts
    March 24, 2020 2:05 AM PDT

    I'm not going to debate game development. Some people here have 'experience' of the game development world. Fine. But things have changed. We are in a world where one guy made Reign of Darkness with the Unity Engine. Pretty sure a team like VR can produce something like EQ with modern graphics and a few extra features and mechanics without hundreds of bodies thrown at it.

    zewtastic said:

    Bottom line I guess is if you've pledged like me, you're in for the ride. Good or bad, right or wrong.

    That, I can agree with.

    When one realises that, surely then one realises all the negative opinion posting is just pointless.

    And given that it can be somewhat damaging and it is otherwise pointless, it should be avoided.

    Personally when I feel impatient and frustrated (and, of course, I do), I go play another game. Just played through Bard's Tale 1 and 2. They didn't really scratch the itch, but have stopped me shaking.

    I bet those seemed like mammoth developments, back in the day...

    • 42 posts
    March 24, 2020 2:28 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

     

     

     

    -VR has nowhere near enough staff (as far as we can tell) to produce an MMO in any realistic period of time. (Typically we're talking hundreds of people, not tens.)
    -Losing Brad can only have a negative impact on funding, pledges and the marketing front-end.

     

     

     

    This is largely what summs up my state of mind too.

    Even if I post rarely, I have pledged almost in the beginning those so many years ago. Why ?

    Simple - I trusted Brad to get the right compromise between quality and quantity and to choose the right development tools because he already proved that he can do that and that he is very good at it.

    And now ? It is also simple - I lost the trust that there is anybody in this small team who is able to lead professionally this project. I do not think they really know where they are going and especially when they will be there and it is not Cohh "thoughts" that have any relevance on these major issues.

    Well out of nostalgy for those great years when it seemed that Brad will give us again a great game targeted exactly at the niche population of "old school gamers" to which I belong and financed by people who trust him, I will still follow from time to time if something happens in Pantheon. But my trust and the enthousiasm which came with is gone.

    • 844 posts
    March 24, 2020 8:26 AM PDT

    Ezrael said:

    I don't share Cohh's opinion at all Zewtastic, I'm simply providing another perspective.

    Perhaps you could try it, instead of having a very narrow minded view full of assumptions.

    Well I guess I don't understand how cherry-picking some things said by a Twitch streamer is even germane? Much less 'another perspective'.

    We've all seen the Cohh streams. We know he's a fan. We know he makes a comfortable living with the highly skilled job of playing games online.

    But that's it. He's a guy that plays games. Something everyone here does.

     

    You're personal attacks are of course typical and say more about YOU than anything about me. And I find they are typical when someone gets frustrated they can't refute something.

    • 245 posts
    March 26, 2020 6:15 AM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    Ezrael said:

    I don't share Cohh's opinion at all Zewtastic, I'm simply providing another perspective.

    Perhaps you could try it, instead of having a very narrow minded view full of assumptions.

    Well I guess I don't understand how cherry-picking some things said by a Twitch streamer is even germane? Much less 'another perspective'.

    We've all seen the Cohh streams. We know he's a fan. We know he makes a comfortable living with the highly skilled job of playing games online.

    But that's it. He's a guy that plays games. Something everyone here does.

     

    You're personal attacks are of course typical and say more about YOU than anything about me. And I find they are typical when someone gets frustrated they can't refute something.

     

    Not sure what your struggling to comprehend about the idea that he only spoke about Pantheon for 3 minutes, hence 3 clips. The only thing omitted was him responding to someones comment in chat complaining that he wanted Pantheon to be rushed and bad and he replied to the guy to say that's not what he meant.

     

    You're the one making personal attacks, making assumptions about people, lying and creating your own agenda to project onto others.

    That says a lot about you mate, along with all your ugly posts about how you're an industry vet and you constantly berate people in different threads and claim to know more than anyone else.

    You are refuted time and again and you have nothing of substance to be offered, that's why you get ignored. Life is too short to be bothered by you.