Also, Crowfall pretty much just followed this path successfully. That game also has been very slow to develop and has gone through several reiterations, but they got a solid playable Demo up, raised money via licensing agreements, got a solid playable Alpha up, and that helped them land an addtional 12 million from investors to get their Series A funding completed. That game has taken a long time and it's mostly just a pvp siege mmo where the content is a giant zone and largely player driven. Pantheon is on a similar trajectory.
Fragile said:You are misunderstanding Mandalorian's point though. Art & Content (quests, NPC's, story, perception chains, etc) are the big bottlekneck to zone creation - not - Acclimation/Combat/Chat/Atmospheres/Mechanics ie lots of programming stuff. Those are all systems that should be done in PF. If those are indeed complete - then what's left? The ART and CONTENT - the slowest parts.
And you are misunderstanding mine.
Since Project Faerthale was first announced, Brad and the Devs have emphasize - almost every time they discussed it - that the main focus of PF was to "have all of our gameplay systems completely integrated". Which of course required finishing the construction of all those systems as well. In my opinion the completing of PF and the opening of Faerthale to testers will be the biggest milestone VR has achieved since they released their first gameplay stream 4 years ago this month. And it will be a much greater accomplishment than just the completion of one zone among many.
I'll admit that Mandalorian's post wasn't the very best one to reference in making my point, but I have seen TOO many posts that try to portray the amount of time it has taken (and still is taking) to get Faerthale finished as some form of yardstick to suggest how long it will take to construct all the other zones in the game. They all take some form of "They started in 2018 (or even 2015) and they're just now releasing the FIRST fully functioning zone". Invariably they ignore or trivialize the role of the development efforts I mention above.
Finally, I'll refer you to this quote:
Jothany said: No one anywhere is claiming that there are lots of other zones nearly finished.There's still tons of art and content creation to be done. But when Faerthale is done and fully playable, a major part of the game 'engine' will be up and running.
And with all due respect, if Mandalorian clarifies "The same work being done in PF will need applied to ALL the other zones as well." as meaning something other than what I understood it to be saying, I'll happily accept the correction. Until then, I'll stand by my own interpretation.
arazons said: I believe he is referring to systems development aspect of PF and not zone construction.
Yes. Thank you.
Fragile said: He and I are putting emphasis on art and content, systems are basic fundamentals that needed completed. They completed those and will be game-wide, however, all zones require assets and content - the actual meat & potatoes.
Fair enough, but I do not recall PF being pitched as being a process that would simplify the addition of assets/zones/content (quests?).
Sure they may learn a thing or two about how to best approach that within their scope during the process, but I believe the meat and potatoes of PF was finalization or near finalization of all proposed game systems not art asset production. The fact that it is even tied to continent / landmass creation (Faerthale) I believe has more to do with having some place in the game world to flesh out the game systems and have a place to showcase it all during PA5 and subsequent Alpha and Beta.
Art, animation, assets etc can only be created as fast as your artists and designers can muster. The only way to really speed up the production of this would be to throw more bodies at it. And to be fair there is probably a massive amount of assets done or nearing done that they havent decided to share with us. And and... I am completely ok with that, I dont want a full tour/review of the game before its even out yet.
arazons said:Fair enough, but I do not recall PF being pitched as being a process that would simplify the addition of assets/zones/content (quests?).
My memory is mostly of it being talked about in some streams, in the months after PF was announced. And I can't tell you what streams, let alone give a time stamp.
I don't know if it's been written out anywhere.
I do think Bazgrim might well be able to tell us what stream, he's very good at such questions if you wish to send him a PM.
Counterfleche said: We can't predict future zone completion time based on PF. Imagine my goal was to build a car from scratch and drive it through all 50 states. Just because it took me 3 years to build the car and drive through my first state, doesn't mean it will take three more years for each state. It's the building of the car, not the driving, which takes most of the time. Designing a MMO game is similar.
This is a good illustration. I'll also add a "worst case scenario" illustration. Even if you did have to rebuild the car 50 times to drive it through each state it would still be faster than 3 years per state. Each new car being built would be faster than the previous because of the experience of building the first. It will get faster and faster, even in a worst case scenario situation.
Counterfleche said: To expand upon my "build a car and drive to 50 states" analogy, there will be some items that need to be built for specific areas (snow tires for Alaska), but this is a tiny amount of extra work in comparison.
Even snow tires are just a differnt texture are they not?
At this point, i think we need to be ready for them to announce that due to lack of funding, the game is no longer in developement. (and possible for sale to anyone who wants to buy)
We are in between a rock and hard place. Eveyone who has given money is now like, forget that, i gave money 4,5,6 years ago and still have nothing to show for it.
New potential pledgers look at the forums and steams are are like, ya... never mind. SO there isn't going to be a "signigicant increase in funding" any time soon.
I agree with Vjek 99% of the time. They have WAY too few zones done. in fact, they don't have ONE single zone 100% done. Even in the last stream, we saw the same place we've seen in streams YEARS ago and they still have mobs that can't path, or just simply don't work at all.
They are worried about super high res SKARS instead of having a world to put them in. We could have waited to super high res characters models AFTER a BUNCH of other stuff was done and the game was IN ALPHA.
They have "redone" the hot bar and UI over again for like the 10th time.... really? is that where you are spending ALL your time?
Did everyone notice the new hot bar is ready to go for the new Xbox and Playstation? Who are they trying to sell the game to? Microsoft or Sony?
That living codex... umm just make a spell book already and be done with it. Hell, copy and paste from EQ1. They are wasting a LOT of time on crap that should have Been Done 4 years ago. The UI was fine 2 years ago. The spell book was fine 2 years ago. the characters models were acceptable 2 years ago. what are you guys doing?
I feel like the whole team is lost and has no idea what to prioritize. "hey, let's reveal super high res skars and fish heads and let's start ALL over on the Archai even though we don't have a game to put them in" ....
I am sick of "let's re do this" and "we remade that" why don't you just make something we can play and fix stuff before you release it.
I would give Pantheon a LOT more money if i thought the game had a chance of releasing at all. I personally think this game is on the edge of shutting down 100%.
At this point, here's where we are. I am waiting for this announcement.
"sorry guys, pantheon is no longer under developement" "thank you for all that money, but it wasn't enough to make a game, have a good day"
Sorry, I wish i could be more optimistic. 6 years later. I just can't. PF taking 2 years and having Very Little to show for all that time has killed my dream of ever playing Pantheon.
I really want to delete this site and never look back, but this mmo was my last hope of getting anything even semi close to EQ. I keep a 1% hope that I am wrong and pantheon will release. but I think there is a 99% chance this game will never ever release.
You optimistics keep on making excuses for Pantheon and I will keep on being a pessimist because that's all i have left to give pantheon, pessimism.
Flapp, you very well could be right, probably moreso than many want to accept. Kudos to you for having the willingness to put it out there. Trust has been lost, partially regained here and there but compared to how I felt 6 years ago, it is quite low.
That's a lot to say on the subject. I for one appreciate your passion and the willingness to type all that out. What hits me the hardest, and this is just my personal opinion, is the lack of transparency with dates/mechanics/things that should of been decided on years ago. The whole point of swapping to this video newsletter (and to twice a month) was to interact, be more available, and transparent (to improve our communications too, to bring you more of the information you seek, and to demonstrate our progress. Starting with this newsletter, we will also produce video content to broaden the scope of our news delivery). Yet we still get hit with "we can't talk about that yet," over and over each round table or stream. For a company that thrives off of player community and off it's donations - keeping walls up are doing a disservice to yourselves and us, the fans.
Zorkon said:Maybe you guys could start your own "rant" post and keep it out of this thread please.
@Killin Can you ditch the off topic whiner post out of this thread please.
So on a topic where the question is "Where are we really at" and someone posts their opinion as to where we really are and two poeple reply stating he might have a point and you say such as post and the responsies s are whines and should be deleted?
Vandraad said:Zorkon said:Maybe you guys could start your own "rant" post and keep it out of this thread please.
@Killin Can you ditch the off topic whiner post out of this thread please.
So on a topic where the question is "Where are we really at" and someone posts their opinion as to where we really are and you say such a response is a whine and should be deleted?
Pretty sure everything in here has been directly on topic. But I am certain it will be locked shortly.
Zorkon said:Maybe you guys could start your own "rant" post and keep it out of this thread please.
@Killin Can you ditch the off topic whiner post out of this thread please.
These comments are clearly on topic.
And the devs desperatly need to hear them.
If they are under the impression that their pace of development is totally fine, by the time the game is released most of the community will have moved on, not to look back.
And they will be left with the best Rock Climbing MMO ever that has nowhere near the player base to sustain.
BamBam said: @Lotuss there will be plenty of players for this game once it releases, with you here or not dont worry :)
I hope you're right. I want this game to succeed and be around for a long time.
But if your attitude is "don't worry", i think that ship sailed about 2 years ago.
The barbarians are at the gate.
Frankly it's been obvious to anyone in the game industry they have never had the bodies to make an MMO of the scale that's touted.
IMO, what they have been doing for years now is building a 'proof of concept' for use in acquiring large scale funding. Enough funding to actually hire the true number of people (100's) needed to create a fully fleshed out MMO.
It's not a dumb idea. They are able to string along development with a shoestring staff for years with the money that trickles in. And in this manner keep their bait in the waters of venture capital.
MMO's can generate a great deal of money if they can hold players for years and keep content fresh and growing.
Unfortunately Brad's main function was bringing in money through his game industry gravitas. His passing has hurt that critical aspect of the project.
Hopefully the 'proof of concept' is far enough along to survive Brad's untimely departure.
Ranarius said:Counterfleche said: We can't predict future zone completion time based on PF. Imagine my goal was to build a car from scratch and drive it through all 50 states. Just because it took me 3 years to build the car and drive through my first state, doesn't mean it will take three more years for each state. It's the building of the car, not the driving, which takes most of the time. Designing a MMO game is similar.This is a good illustration. I'll also add a "worst case scenario" illustration. Even if you did have to rebuild the car 50 times to drive it through each state it would still be faster than 3 years per state. Each new car being built would be faster than the previous because of the experience of building the first. It will get faster and faster, even in a worst case scenario situation.
No, it isn't. This analogy is awful, and demonstrates an absolutely massive misunderstanding of the task at hand. Perception, acclimation, climbing, etc, have absolutely nothing to do with actual content creation; the building of the world itself. You cannot drive your fancy feature complete car into a world that does not exist.
The difference between the pessimists and the optimists are the pessimists are assuming the worst with no real basis and the optimists are *not* assuming the best, but are just trusting the devs aren't liars and cheats.
Flapp said:...New potential pledgers look at the forums ... are like, ya... never mind...
It's good that you recognise that pessimistic posts are likely to damage potential investment. I wish people would take that into account more when posting. It can only hurt the game and the community.
If all you have is pessimism, then maybe take a break from the forums. Really, is there any worthwhile purpose in the negativity?
I would like to add that I am a fairly recent pledge I've only been around for a few months and what I'm about to say might have little value to anyone who has been waiting years but. Before I pledged I read alot of posts and saw the negative rants and opinions but I pledged anyway. For me this game is the only game that has even peaked my interest since EQ1 I never played wow or vangaurd or anything for that matter. When my time was up on EQ I just stopped gaming nothing seemed worth it. Then I stumbeled accross some Pantheon content, Cohh, Baz, VoT, Minus a few videos on you tube and I was hooked. I loved the content I was seeing and I loved the way these streamers talked about Pantheon. After listening to the way the devs talked about the game and the effort that goes into creating something to the level I think we are all expectinig is why we are here and why we will wait. I dont like waiting anymore than anyone else but I honestly belive that what the end result will be is something that I will enjoy for a long time and frankly what else is out there with this much promise? We are all waiting because there isn't anything else like Pantheon out there like it or not. So I propose we should all just sit back drink our coffee and enjoy the opportunity to watch the creation of the next MMORPG Picasso.