Should different merchants offer different prices when buying goods from players?
Some games have merchants near heroic/popular zones offer less coin for goods than merchant in the cities. Should that be?
What about specific goods being worth more to specific vendors? Like armorers offering more for some goods, cooks offering more for food related stuff, alchemists offering more for related goods, etc?
Would it be worthwhile to visit various vendors to maximize coin gains?
What about faction-based merchants?
Or charisma-based pricing?
Or, should all vendors offer consistent prices?
I like the idea of vendors having unique supply/demand based pricing...but maybe that's not worth the work it would take to put in. I'd go for something simple though, based on faction/reputation, or location, or charisma, etc.
It gets interesting when you try to convince another player to buy or sell something for you because they get better prices. How extreme would it have to be to be worth the time. I could go either way, but I do like the idea.
Before he left the team, Ceythos mentioned (in his dev roundtable) that he was exploring the idea of merchants having "specialties". So for example, a jewelry merchant might sell jewelry, and pay a higher rate to players for jewelry items. However, they would pay a lower rate for things like armor that weren't within their specialty.
Whether that ends up being implemented or not, no one knows. But it does mean that it's a possibility we should consider.
Good topic Beef :)
I do like the idea, and feel thats how it should be but Ranarius makes a good point. Is it really worth the effort for the Devs to plan it out and implement it. Early EQ had both faction and Charisma based pricing modifiers but nether was so significant that I ever bothered with them short of the novelty of checking them out. Even my enchanter friends didn't find it worth the time to load the spell that boosted charisma, I surely wasn't about to run across a word more or less a zone for it.
Now if the Dev's REALLY wanted to steer players to different merchants, and they made it REALLY make a differance, then yes. Otherwise it's just a waste of development time.
EQ also had many merchants who would charge double and pay half or so just because they were.. unfair? I always liked that quirk in EQ, and it made me check around with merchants sometimes to make sure I was getting a standard price. The merchant right outside of the Kelethin bank had that property, and it's amusing thinking of how many people never realized they were being taken advantage of. =P
I'm sure it could be done quite simply and add some flavour and realism.
At a minimum, merchants could pay more for items they have few of giving diminishing returns for those camping an area for a long time. This would at least discourage gold farming and encourage movement/exploration.
Also, some areas could pay a bit more for some items so that it starts to make trade routes of certain types of goods a 'thing'.
I wouldn't want to see it go the way of a commodities market, though. The reward should come from adventuring and travelling, not from hoarding and cornering markets. The last thing we want is people 'gaming' the economy so that it stuffs it up for others.
I"ve said it for years, vendor pricing should be based upon supply and demand. Sell 1 batwing to a vendor and he'll pay X amount, sell 10 of them and he'll lower what he is willing to pay. A vendor in an area where wolves are abundant should not pay much for a wolf pelt. But a vendor in a different city where wolves don't exist should pay quite a bit more..untill you flood that vendor with lots of pelts.
By the same token, a vendor that has batwings in stock will sell you one quite cheap, but you want to buy a stack of 20? The individual cost should increase as his supply is dwindling.
This allows for the enterprising player(s) to figure out what merchants will buy/sell of a given item in different locations and, perhaps, offer to buy an item off players in an area for a certain price knowing that if they go some number of zones away to a particular vendor they could sell those for a profit.
In addition to this, faction, race and class should alwasy have some effect on your buy/sale price. The Ogre trying to sell to a Halfling merchant should not see as good of a price as a Halfling selling to a Halfling vendor. Maybe close if faction is high, but not exactly the same.
I've always liked the idea of a dynamic economy. But it has to be designed in a way where it is organic and natural and not propped up by some scalar value that is tweaked server side.
If I recall correctly UO had something similar with supply and demand elements and local pricing played into NPC vendor interaction (buy, sell), but was overhauled and removed due to inadvertant side effects of other game systems and how they would affect the supply / demand aspect.
https://www.raphkoster.com/games/snippets/the-evolution-of-uos-economy/
First of all let me say that my preferred system is no NPC vendors and all drops should be crafting materials.
That being said if we are forced into the old NPC vendors I would like to see it kind of like project gorgon has done.
NPCs have a favor level. This can depend on race, class, whatever and can be raised or lowered by doing quests, giving it items it likes etc
at each favor level the NPC has a total pool of cash he/she is willing to spend on whatever items he/she will buy. Example:
NPC Harry buys and sells Armor. At Neutral favor he will spend up to 50g per piece of armor and up to 1200 for the week (7 days after he buys the first item).
At Friends favor level he may pay up to 300g per item and spend up to 15,000g per week.
KatoKhan said:First of all let me say that my preferred system is no NPC vendors and all drops should be crafting materials.
That's one of the more radical ideas I've heard on the forums. How would players acquire currency if there's no cash in drops and they don't sell loot to vendors?
Jothany said:KatoKhan said:First of all let me say that my preferred system is no NPC vendors and all drops should be crafting materials.
That's one of the more radical ideas I've heard on the forums. How would players acquire currency if there's no cash in drops and they don't sell loot to vendors?
I may not be seeing it like Katokhan was intending but I have thought of something similar in the past. NPC vendors having no pre loaded stock, only having what players sold them. As time went on they would acquire items from the players.
Either way, interesting idea to explore.
Zorkon said:I may not be seeing it like Katokhan was intending but I have thought of something similar in the past. NPC vendors having no pre loaded stock, only having what players sold them. As time went on they would acquire items from the players.
Either way, interesting idea to explore.
Now that I can understand. I like the idea, could make for a very interesting dynamic.
Based on what has been said about NPCs reselling items obtained by the players, I think that it makes sense if there were price differentials based on the NPC, faction, reputation, etc. As for the development time required for this though I'm not sure if it is currently worth it. In my opinion, the game still has a ways to go before it hits alpha/beta and this might be a potential feature that could be explored more in alpha when they are flushing out the various professions.
I do think that it would be good to eventually see this though. It could potentially add another form of gold sinking to the economy as well as create certain vendors who are known for having a higher chance to sell specific items based on the sell value presented to players.
Zorkon said:Jothany said:KatoKhan said:First of all let me say that my preferred system is no NPC vendors and all drops should be crafting materials.
That's one of the more radical ideas I've heard on the forums. How would players acquire currency if there's no cash in drops and they don't sell loot to vendors?
I may not be seeing it like Katokhan was intending but I have thought of something similar in the past. NPC vendors having no pre loaded stock, only having what players sold them. As time went on they would acquire items from the players.
Either way, interesting idea to explore.
EQ "sort" of had this. Vendors carried items but if someone sold something to a vendor another player could purchase it off the vendor. I don't like the extreme idea of drops only being crafting material but I do like the idea of vendors selling the "junk" people sell to them.
Beefcake said:Should different merchants offer different prices when buying goods from players?
Some games have merchants near heroic/popular zones offer less coin for goods than merchant in the cities. Should that be?
Designing storeprices and goods so that it alignes with the region and stature of the merchant itself, would certainly help make the world feel more alive and organic.
I dread the idea of encountering 20 merchants all across Terminus and they all sell the same goods at the same price.
You can design around 1st > 2nd sale, max capacity/merchant, max coin availabe/merchant. Each can have their own ups and downs. But that might create a wall of text here.
I like the idea that certain tresholds of faction increases, can lift the return of a sale at one merchant relating to that faction. It's very risky because, you're creating a snowball that can grow out of control as expansions are added on. Unless you're capping the max return, but does it done become a railroad system where it's a must have grind faction?
It makes more sense when you design merchants that only will buy items with certain item ID's, relating to their standing and/or npc-id itself (aka lore). Similar to what Vandraad and others said, were we have an abundance of item id's in the region, it will decrease the actual value of that item id sold in that same region or proximity around it.
That said, going further away from that region to get the item ID sold, you might encounter npc's that are not interested in that item ID at all. This can be orcherstrated by a blocking mechanic, where you have concentric circles around npc's/merchants. (for the majority of cases) Items that have their origin within the circle closests to that merchant, will have the merchant sell highest value. As items orginate from concentric circles further away from the merchants, the value will decrease. To the point where you have a cut off distance, where the merchant will no longer be interested in items that come from areas that are too far away from that merchant. Now this design, can be turned around or variations of this can ofc be made, depending on the area, npc, item, lore, etc. However, I do believe, if your design is consistent enough, it will work and feel organically. Players will know what to do with items found and what not to do. It can also help prevent "playing" the economy. That also means, that players will have to consider the value of their items as they travel or hoard goods.
I can see the value of player made items being dependant on how many that merchant has in store, bought recently himself, faction build by the player, item id compared to merchant id (lore).
It's interesting to consider a merchant near a high item output location, that is not willing to pay a lot (or at least not the full expected value) for items generated from nearby. If you'd try and sell those items to 100 merchants in a city, perhaps only 30% or less will be offering you a decent price for it. The value of that item might range among those citymerchants between 5%-100% of it's real value. Meaning, no one will be paying more than the true item value. There are only very few merchants willing to offer that deal and they might have additional requirements of their own, before they are willing to concent to that deal.
If you are willing to hold on to it, carry it along the way and risk having a full inventory, in order to sell an item for the best possible price. That should be possible, just not common practice. It makes a lot of sense that most merchants will not pay you the true value. It also makes sense that most players won't bother to search for the best deal merchant, instead they load off at nearest npc that has somewhat of a good deal to offer. With this in mind, you're already constructing a coin sink, seemingly an indirect one. But this design can be manageable throughout expansions.
Beefcake said:Or, should all vendors offer consistent prices?
A merchant can pay X amount for the item with item ID Y. It can decrease as they buy more of item ID Y. An interesting combination could be that as that npc's being approached his items on sale increase by X% as that npc's is being approached. Or in other words, the prices of the npc go up as players increasingly interact with that specific merchant. (NOTE that I'm talking about interaction, so not per se a commercial interaction, just Target/talk to and clear Target is also interaction.) As players interact less with that merchant, the prices of items being sold will go down again up to a baseline value. The baseline value is the value of his items being sold and a minimum of players have interacted with him in X amount of time.
This translates roughly into popularity pricings. A hotzone, will have merchants with expensive goods (this does not mean exclusive goods, rather goods with increased prices!!). They will buy low and sell high. When player population decreases, the prices will normalize ones again.
And vice versa: A cold zone, with no or hardly any players interacting with a merchant, might create high buying deals. This one is a bit more iffy to work out, but it can work out if you set up your parameters safely/thoughtfully. The temporary increased cashreturn will drop down and normalize more quickly compared to the above scenario. This to prevent "playing markets" by players.
Beefcake said:Would it be worthwhile to visit various vendors to maximize coin gains?
If the game design is such that you increase your travel or play time, in order to optimize your return value from your sales. To me, optimizing coin gain, should implement investing more playtime. If it doesn't take more time or require other aspects within the game, it's just bad npc placement and shallow merchant design.
It needs to take a noticable investement. Then it could make sense, that does however implicate that for the majority of cases, you will not get best buck for your goods. If this is evident to the players, the perceived item value or perceived overall value of items will drop down and the envolvement with the game itself might decrease.
It might be more natural, to consider what the item is or of what it consists. Then think what type of merchant might be interested in this and where would they be located.
This in comparison to, running from one npc to another just to see who's offering the best deal. So then, it's more about item ID relating to merchants, instead of the random visits to optimize coin gain.
The other thing that could be considered it what type of item are you selling to which vendor? Why would a Baker, for example, pay a huge amount of money for a pair of plate greaves? She's going to look at those and thing "WTF am I going to do with these and why should I buy them off thise person?" A Blacksmith could very well pay more as, for him, they oculd be repurposed, resold or melted down for the materials.
Vandraad said:The other thing that could be considered it what type of item are you selling to which vendor? Why would a Baker, for example, pay a huge amount of money for a pair of plate greaves? She's going to look at those and thing "WTF am I going to do with these and why should I buy them off thise person?" A Blacksmith could very well pay more as, for him, they oculd be repurposed, resold or melted down for the materials.
This is something that has always bothered me in games. I would take it a step further and suggest that the baker shouldnt even offer to buy it at any price, because well, you know a baker has as much use for a set of plate greives as a blacksmith does with a sack of flour.
EppE said:EQ "sort" of had this. Vendors carried items but if someone sold something to a vendor another player could purchase it off the vendor. I don't like the extreme idea of drops only being crafting material but I do like the idea of vendors selling the "junk" people sell to them.
That question came up way back in one of the earliest gameplay streams, and we were told the Devs intended it have it in the game. No more details were given. I haven't heard it mentioned in a year or two, but hopefully it is still part of The Vision®
I enjoy seeing the differences in these threads. This is an area where I could care less if VR puts a lot of thought and time into it. Different prices based on quantity bought or sold is a total waste of time for me. A baker that won't buy my gloves? Why not, barter is always part of early civilizations. A vendor across town that will pay 5% more for my wolf skin, I don't care. I want to sell fast and get back out playing. If others want to price check fourteen vendors to get the best deal, have at it. I've got better stuff to do with my time. This is an explore, adventure, craft game, not shopping day at Walmart.