Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Housing

    • 793 posts
    March 3, 2020 5:02 AM PST

     

    Do we need to have player "built" housing?

    Most MMOs there are villages and town with so many empty shell homes, building, apartments. Or homes with NPCs that serve no purpose than make it look lived in, move them out when necessary.

    Why not include enough of them that players can buy/rent them, but limit 1 homestead per player. So that wealthy players don't play the real estate game.

    Once you pruchase a space, then you can add a lock to the door if you choose, or leave it open for anyone to come visit and look around.

     

    How cool would it be to venture into a small village you passed many many times, but see new life. Maybe even allow visual alterations to the exterior a little (plant flower beds, small garden, statues, etc)

     

    This would solve the isssue of player housing looking out of place, it would add some dynamic life to a static village/town.

     

    Have the whole buy/sell system be server controlled.

     

     


    This post was edited by Fulton at March 3, 2020 5:04 AM PST
    • 99 posts
    March 3, 2020 6:39 AM PST

    Flapp said:

    SugarWood said: Not sure I really understand the need or point of housing. I see the debate on open vs instanced and it has gotten a lot of response but why do we want or need it in Pantheon?

    I completely agree. hopefully it will hold off for an expansion, if ever. I really do not want it in Pantheon, ever. 

    Also, I am sorry you were attacked in the very first post..

    HOW DARE YOU SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS ON THESE FORUMS!!!!  STOP BEING ENORMOUSLY SELFISH. gah.... /s 

     

     

     

    Thank you Flapp It actually surprises me how quickly people lash out or misunderstand the intent of the question or post. I have skimmed through alot of different forum topics on this site and most people tend to participate in the discussions and give an opinion but one or two seem to be looking for internet warfare hehe. I would like thank everyone for input given and appreciated hearing other perspectives it gave me a different view of housing in the game. I really enjoy this community and cant wait for the oppertunity to play with you guys in game.

    • 521 posts
    March 3, 2020 11:54 AM PST

    Ranarius said:

    ... forcing players to that location is wrong, and meaningless...

    Disagreeing with something doesn't make it wrong and meaningless.  Forcing players to locations is what this game is all about, the choices you make about how to spend your time will be the determining factor for how your character develops.  I didn't read anything in the game tenants that said they were hoping to make the game easier for players.  I totally get that there are differing opinions on the topic, but I don't get how one opinion is wrong and meaningless.

    ...Worse yet, how does that impact the possibility of player shops, there is no global auction house, possibility not even a local one, so are we dumping are wares onto NPC merchants in towns?

    I'm not actually sure what you're asking here.  I do not believe there will be player shops, or an auction house (of any kind).  But that doesn't mean you'll dump your wares onto NPC merchants either.  You will sell your wares to other players by talking to them, physically meeting them in a location, and making the trade.  I might have misunderstood your thought though.  Sorry if I did.

     

    The act of forcing players to use city terminals as a means of populating the city is wrong in my opinion, it’s how you get players who've turned out, and not how you get city full of player engagement. What good will it do to have city teaming with players who've turned off their chat from all the WTS This WTS That?, what good will it do when lines of AFK crafters are waiting to use the limited crafting terminals?

    The bottom line is if your having to force players to be in your city, then your city is boring.

    Add entertainment venues as I mentioned before, I would pay to hear a bard play at the tavern, I would place bets on the current duel taking place, I would spend hours searching the city for secret easter eggs, or guard the gates when the alarm bells rang or whatever.


    My opinion is Yes to player Housing-Shops, No to being online and in a city to conduct business. I don't think we need to return to merchants sitting in rows on the ground AFK to make sales.

    • 1428 posts
    March 3, 2020 12:08 PM PST

    bdo is open world, however, has instanced housing.

    crafting the more complicated stuff in the game requires housing.  it works pretty well imo.

    it didn't make sense that one could craft super tier equipment without specialized equipment.

    • 217 posts
    March 3, 2020 12:21 PM PST

    I feel a housing "zone" would be appropriate. Make it instanced within city walls, but make it to where players can actually build their homes with resources on a plot. One plot per account. Some plots bigger and if need be can always cut and paste another zone in if there is more neccessity of homes.

    I agree that crafting in your own home is great but also it takes away from the cities crafting areas and soon become very unused. So maybe make it to where the "home zones" have crafting areas within the zone. but no banking, make the banks near the city crafting areas so people are more apt to use those crafting areas.

    I dunno.. I think no matter what is done if anything plenty of people will find reason to hate on whatever is decided. I lvoe the idea of building my own home personally. I also love the idea of housing as for me, shelter is something we all need. so immersion-wise it makes sense to have a place to call home. Shutting down and logging off just feels better that way.

    I also echo that it is something that should be in an expansion as it is not a required to play the game item and us gamers are HUNGRY to get this gamed launched and enjoy its many already awesome features.

    -my 2cp


    This post was edited by vigilantee13 at March 3, 2020 12:22 PM PST
    • 1273 posts
    March 3, 2020 12:52 PM PST

    The act of forcing players to use city terminals as a means of populating the city is wrong in my opinion, it’s how you get players who've turned out, and not how you get city full of player engagement. What good will it do to have city teaming with players who've turned off their chat from all the WTS This WTS That?, what good will it do when lines of AFK crafters are waiting to use the limited crafting terminals?

    The bottom line is if your having to force players to be in your city, then your city is boring.

    Add entertainment venues as I mentioned before, I would pay to hear a bard play at the tavern, I would place bets on the current duel taking place, I would spend hours searching the city for secret easter eggs, or guard the gates when the alarm bells rang or whatever.


    My opinion is Yes to player Housing-Shops, No to being online and in a city to conduct business. I don't think we need to return to merchants sitting in rows on the ground AFK to make sales.

    I like your ideas on making cities entertaining.  I'm all for that stuff.  I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that crafting stations will have lines though, I've never heard of that (but maybe I missed something).  As far as the chat chanels go, I believe one of the major points is that this is a social game.  I doubt they'll be adding things to allow players to interact with each other without even being at their computer.  I'd be surprised.  They want people to chat in order to conduct business.

    • 1273 posts
    March 3, 2020 12:56 PM PST

    I also love the idea of housing as for me, shelter is something we all need. so immersion-wise it makes sense to have a place to call home. Shutting down and logging off just feels better that way.

    I agree with this idea as well, but I doubt that people would be going back to their homes to log off...travel in this game is not going to be simple, so heading back to your home before logging off could take plenty of time, and getting back to your adventure spot when you log back in would take just as much time.  In general people are going to want to log off where they are currently adventuring.

    • 2138 posts
    March 3, 2020 1:05 PM PST

    How about this, being the thing with housing.

    Ok you know how you can be listed as anonymous? so people know you are online, but cant see where you are?

    in housing, however, wether it be in real game plots, or in one instanced area where player and guild housing is kept (like habbo hotel for everyone) have it where you can see inside the housing.

    You cannot enter, but you can see inside through the large windows, upstairs and downstairs. Reasonable of course, but huge bay windows that you can see in from the street or ground level. Even guild halls.

    You can see people moving around, you can never really hide- "you're not anon I can see you! come out!" or, "ooh, uber guild X is having a meeting, wave! I know soandso maybe he'll see me- shoot, he doesnt. oh well."  People can see your decorations as they pass by or your clutter , heh. 

    you can enter if invited or goven permission and people can see both of you inside

    Oh, here you go- all your alts are inside, in suspension- all alts associated with your account in your house that can be seen from outside even when you're offline. or maybe not, maybe just when you're online. key is associated with your account. anonymity is fine....with another account.

    • 1428 posts
    March 3, 2020 1:31 PM PST

    Manouk said:

    How about this, being the thing with housing.

    Ok you know how you can be listed as anonymous? so people know you are online, but cant see where you are?

    in housing, however, wether it be in real game plots, or in one instanced area where player and guild housing is kept (like habbo hotel for everyone) have it where you can see inside the housing.

    You cannot enter, but you can see inside through the large windows, upstairs and downstairs. Reasonable of course, but huge bay windows that you can see in from the street or ground level. Even guild halls.

    You can see people moving around, you can never really hide- "you're not anon I can see you! come out!" or, "ooh, uber guild X is having a meeting, wave! I know soandso maybe he'll see me- shoot, he doesnt. oh well."  People can see your decorations as they pass by or your clutter , heh. 

    you can enter if invited or goven permission and people can see both of you inside

    Oh, here you go- all your alts are inside, in suspension- all alts associated with your account in your house that can be seen from outside even when you're offline. or maybe not, maybe just when you're online. key is associated with your account. anonymity is fine....with another account.

    seeing into houses would work with real plots, but not with instancing.

    i'm really not a fan of observing people in their houses...

    there's some real -interesting- folks out there and in my house, i'd like privacy.

    as far as friends and guildmates coming in, well, that's fine i suppose.

     

    i'd say it'll have to be instanced.  real plots gets pretty resource intensive when objects and alt characters all have to be accounted for every house.

    • 81 posts
    March 3, 2020 2:25 PM PST

    SugarWood said: Not sure I really understand the need or point of housing. I see the debate on open vs instanced and it has gotten a lot of response but why do we want or need it in Pantheon?

    My answer to this is why not ? 

    You may not want it, enjoy it or plan on using it,  but others will. 

    The more options the better.

    • 287 posts
    March 3, 2020 4:55 PM PST

    Trasak said:

    First Vandraad is totally right that implementation of crafting is an expansion feature and has no business being in the initial launch.  I would suggest that VR know the rough shape of how they want crafting to be implemented so it fits into the current and future design without too much rewriting.

    I misquoted you to make a point.  Do you agree with the statements above as written? If not, why not?  If so, how about this one:

    First Vandraad is totally right that implementation of questing is an expansion feature and has no business being in the initial launch.  I would suggest that VR know the rough shape of how they want questing to be implemented so it fits into the current and future design without too much rewriting.

    You could take any single feature and say the same but most will only say that about features they care little about.  For others, housing and crafting are hugely important.  Some players play only to craft.  Are they not worth attracting to the game because you (or anyone) doesn't care about that feature?  You can say that housing is completely unneeded at launch but someone else will say that it is essential for them to play the game.  None of us are the right people to make those choices.  That's VR's territory and only they can decide which player groups are important to court given the dev team's limited resources and the business' deadlines and goals.

    • 2419 posts
    March 4, 2020 7:18 AM PST

    Akilae said:

    You could take any single feature and say the same but most will only say that about features they care little about. 

    What is Pantheon at its most fundamental level?  A game centered around groups of players going out and adventuring in the wilds facing off against the monsters and creatures that inhabit Terminus.

    Mechanics that are in direct support of that foundation are what VR needs to focus on, ensuring those are functioning for release  Housing is not even secondary to that foundation, but at best tertiary.

    I'll ask you straight up and give me an honest answer: Would you refuse to play Pantheon if housing were not in at release but slated for a later expansion?

    • 1785 posts
    March 4, 2020 7:40 AM PST

    I think that there are systems that you can put in after launch and still have them work well and integrate well with the rest of the game.  Housing is one of those features.  Would I love to see it in at launch?  Absolutely.  But as long as the team is putting the hooks for it in at launch, it's ok if it comes afterwards as an expansion feature.  In fact, I'd rather the team deliver rich, deep, and compelling housing as an expansion, than give us something mediocre and half-assed for launch.

    Other systems such as crafting don't work that way.  Why?  Because, perhaps selfishly, we want crafting to be on equal footing with loot for *every* item that players use in the game.  If crafting isn't implemented at launch, so that the systems can be tightly integrated from day one, one of three things will occur.  The first potential outcome is that crafting ends up being a tacked-on side activity that is either very niche or isn't really very meaningful (just like so many other games).  The second potential outcome is that the dev team invents some new stats or concepts in order to make crafting meaningful, and then the game goes into a cycle of see-saw balancing between loot and crafted items that plays out over the rest of its life.  The third potential outcome is that the devs end up having to do a LOT of re-work on existing content, drop tables, items, and so on when they implement crafting so that they achieve some semblance of balance between the gameplay spheres.  From my perspective, none of those is a desirable outcome.  Thus, I don't feel that crafting is a system that could wait until an expansion to happen, unlike housing.  The only requirement for having housing come later is just insuring that there's space for it in the world when it does finally arrive.  In terms of development costs, that's pretty easy.

    Are there other things that could slip to post-launch?  Absolutely.  Progeny could probably be implemented as an expansion feature (after all, we'll all be busy on our first characters for a while).  Some aspects of crafting, such as an enchantment/augmentation/whatever system, could be pushed back as well without impacting the rest of it.  Things like mounts could come in as a post-launch feature as well.  It's not like we haven't seen that happen before.  Additional gameplay spheres such as influence/diplomacy could happen after launch (again as long as the team has thought forward and implemented hooks for them ahead of time).

    Anyway, I think it's important we maintain perspective here.  Our criteria for what goes in at launch shouldn't be which parts of the game we care about the most, but instead it should be about what the risks are of holding things back.  If there's a lot of risk with holding a feature back, then it should go in at launch.  If there's not much risk, then it's ok to wait - even if some of us really, really want that feature.

    And just to be clear - I WANT in-world housing with strong integration to other forms of gameplay and the ability to have player towns and cities complete with NPC services like you find in the NPC ones.  I don't want another fun but ultimately meaningless decorating sim walled off behind an instanced door somewhere.  I will always be a proponent of non-combat gameplay and housing is a core part of that.  I just believe that as long as the dev team is getting the groundwork in now to support it later, they can wait to implement the bulk of it until after launch and it will still work.

    • 90 posts
    March 4, 2020 9:20 AM PST

    Player housing is fun but what they discovered in EQ2 is cities became empty as more and more players retreated to their housing. 

    I guess if they made it so people can't teleport to and from their homes and have to actually run to the door. 

    • 2752 posts
    March 4, 2020 10:40 AM PST

    Vandraad said:

    What is Pantheon at its most fundamental level?  A game centered around groups of players going out and adventuring in the wilds facing off against the monsters and creatures that inhabit Terminus.

    Mechanics that are in direct support of that foundation are what VR needs to focus on, ensuring those are functioning for release  Housing is not even secondary to that foundation, but at best tertiary.

    This is where I will always stand on this. This isn't and I feel really shouldn't try to be Stardew Valley or The Sims, or seek to add almost entirely extraneous things like those games. There is a very real tax on the rest of the game for the rest of its lifetime by adding housing (especially instanced). 

     

    If they were seeking to add other genre of games into the world then I would argue adding an entire collectable card game (CCG) to the game would be less harmful to the world (than instanced housing) and less of an overall continued tax on development. People sitting in taverns playing games seems far better than people missing from the game world in their homes. 

     

    All said I think continued focus on the core of the game and features that directly support that is best for launch, expansions, and beyond. 

    • 1428 posts
    March 4, 2020 11:01 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    This is where I will always stand on this. This isn't and I feel really shouldn't try to be Stardew Valley or The Sims, or seek to add almost entirely extraneous things like those games. There is a very real tax on the rest of the game for the rest of its lifetime by adding housing (especially instanced). 

     

    If they were seeking to add other genre of games into the world then I would argue adding an entire collectable card game (CCG) to the game would be less harmful to the world (than instanced housing) and less of an overall continued tax on development. People sitting in taverns playing games seems far better than people missing from the game world in their homes. 

     

    All said I think continued focus on the core of the game and features that directly support that is best for launch, expansions, and beyond. 

    to make a living and breathing world, there must be housing!  this is not a game!  it's an ecosystem!  it makes no sense if i have 17 different punches, kicks and grapples that can't access all of them in a fight because i can only slot 14 of them into my brain!  just like pve!  that's unnatural!  players should be able to attack other players!  it just doesn't make sense!  i didn't mean to turn timmy into a pulp bag of flesh!  he hit me first and called my momma dumb tree hugging pointy ear freak of nature!

    • 521 posts
    March 4, 2020 1:15 PM PST

    Housing goes hand in hand with being a crafter for me, it provides a better place to work, store materials for quick access, and in some cases the privacy to get things done, and a necessary part of experiencing a “world” where we have varying professions.

    I don’t play MMO’s just to “adventure”, in fact its probably the smallest draw because it gets old real fast. I’d rather be fishing, crafting, playing the Lute at the tavern, throwing rocks at the guards ect..

    The “sandbox” gameplay, where I can log in and immersive my self in the World around me, which doesn't include following Question Marks, and might include crafting alone in my humble home after I’ve gathered enough supplies from hunting, harvesting, and possibly trading.

    Give me the option to buy and run a merchant store in town, or run the tavern as a bartender, and In keeper, or what ever, There’s more interesting ways to be a part of the world than Sword n Board.

    So, while Housing doesn't have to be in at launch, it is important, and I can say I’ve bailed on several MMO’s from boredom in search of that SWG Sandbox experience.

    • 1860 posts
    March 4, 2020 4:19 PM PST

    It has been discussed a handful of times that housing in Pantheon (planned for post release) will not be individual housing but will be based around guilds.  Guild based housing/outpost/keep etc.

    Brad talked about the possibility that the guild outpost could be moved around to different locations depending on the progress of the guild at that time.

    Personally, I have never played a game that I thought handled housing well.  I could take it or leave it.

    • 1399 posts
    March 4, 2020 6:35 PM PST

    Thats what it was, "Outpost" not encampment's 

    Here is a 11 page thread on Housing where Brad talks about his thought's on "Outpost"

     

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2510/housing-is-it-planned-to-be-a-major-part-of-the-game/view/page/1

     

    • 844 posts
    March 4, 2020 6:47 PM PST

    stellarmind said:

    bdo is open world, however, has instanced housing.

    crafting the more complicated stuff in the game requires housing.  it works pretty well imo.

    it didn't make sense that one could craft super tier equipment without specialized equipment.

    BDO is a PoS. It's a grind-based, mindless Korean P2W terd fest.

    It's not open world. It entirely instanced. Every single place is an instance. All of it.

    • 370 posts
    March 4, 2020 11:22 PM PST

    zewtastic said:

    stellarmind said:

    bdo is open world, however, has instanced housing.

    crafting the more complicated stuff in the game requires housing.  it works pretty well imo.

    it didn't make sense that one could craft super tier equipment without specialized equipment.

    BDO is a PoS. It's a grind-based, mindless Korean P2W terd fest.

    It's not open world. It entirely instanced. Every single place is an instance. All of it.

     

    Ah yes the "I don't like it so it sucks" always a solid go to.

     

    FF14 has housing zones. Some crafting can be done in the house but many people craft in the major hubs or currently in a city that is being "rebuilt" so there are crafting quests. It's a "semi" open world housing system in that there are limited plots and the outside of the houses are open world but the inside is each instanced. The upside is anyone can walk up to the outside of your house, look around, and if you let them they can enter it. Some housing areas are busy, some aren't. The down side is not everyone can own a house. Since there are a limited number of plots you have to wait for one to open up, normally because someone stopped playing, so people who can afford a house and want a house simply can't get one because it doesn't become available when they are online. The limited plots also created a secondary market where they can be sold for gil or real money.

     

    I think housing adds to a game but I don't want the normal zones littered with houses. If people could purchase cottages in the small towns that litter the world I think that would be good and add life to areas that will eventually become barren after people out level those areas. I think housing zones inside the city are a good idea too. 

     

    IMO adding housing only adds to the exerpience of the game, it helps create the world feel. I think it is something that should be planned out now, but probably not implemented until the first expansion or a major content patch.

    • 1428 posts
    March 5, 2020 9:40 AM PST

    zewtastic said:

    BDO is a PoS. It's a grind-based, mindless Korean P2W terd fest.

    It's not open world. It entirely instanced. Every single place is an instance. All of it.

    just like our lives.  we think it's open w0rld, but in all actuality, we are living in an instanced society.  we are told what to do and what to believe without question.  don't worry we'll all die of coebov 20(i'll dub it the corebola virus).

    if i'm not mistaken, most open world mmos are 'technically' instanced sections and have buffers between hard lined zones.  has something to do with helping server rendering side.  i'm not too saavy with this so i might be wrong.  i don't think pantheon will be 'open world rendered'(too resource intensive even for a beastly server), but will have the illusion of being open world.

    to the point though, bdo is a pvp action based mmo.  there isn't really emphasis on pve(basically you shouldn't play this game if you're pver and risk adverse).  it doesn't mean one can't learn how to better put a world together because of it.  i think they did a decent job with housing in this game(there are issues though like when initially going into a house, it has to load assets).


    This post was edited by NoJuiceViscosity at March 5, 2020 10:38 AM PST
    • 1315 posts
    March 5, 2020 10:55 AM PST

    Akilae said:

    Trasak said:

    First Vandraad is totally right that implementation of crafting is an expansion feature and has no business being in the initial launch.  I would suggest that VR know the rough shape of how they want crafting to be implemented so it fits into the current and future design without too much rewriting.

    I misquoted you to make a point.  Do you agree with the statements above as written? If not, why not?  If so, how about this one:

    See Vandraad, when I agree with you I get called out if I am understing it correctly as being biased on features I think are important.

    To respond to you Akilae I think housing is a secondary development path that can be held off until the core game is launched.  While I may want cool open world player controlled cities its outside of the scope of what VR can currently handle and what I know of the world size of Terminus.  To avoid Pantheon going the way of Star Citizen, Ashes of Creation and sadly now Camelot Unchained I would encourage as narrowed of a scope as can be pushed live fully functional asap. 

    Any system that can be delayed without damage the core progression path should be. Once Pantheon is live with a positive revenue stream a lot of things can be expanded on.  For me that could even include crafting but if crafting is to be relevant at all it needs to be part of the core progression and therefor would at least need a place holder at launch.

    • 521 posts
    March 5, 2020 11:30 AM PST

    Trasak said:

    To avoid Pantheon going the way of Star Citizen, Ashes of Creation and sadly now Camelot Unchained I would encourage as narrowed of a scope as can be pushed live fully functional asap.

    Any system that can be delayed without damage the core progression path should be. Once Pantheon is live with a positive revenue stream a lot of things can be expanded on. For me that could even include crafting but if crafting is to be relevant at all it needs to be part of the core progression and therefor would at least need a place holder at launch.

    Assuming core mechanics were completed ( IE global items not related to specific ares or levels), I would gladly pay a Sub to play on a server that was capped at a specific level, such as level 10, with those dungeons and areas completed, while the rest of the world was treated like an expansion.

    Not suggesting its possible or within the vision of the game, but I see not a reason why the base game cant start with max level lower than 60, and get those subs coming in.

    • 1315 posts
    March 5, 2020 11:40 AM PST

    @HemlockReaper

    DDO did something like that where only levels 1-5 were available at launch.  DDO was also even more buggy than Vanguard was at launch so I am not sure if it is a fair example to go by.