So as we saw in this last stream, when AP's are spent, it upgrades the current (single version) of the spell to the new upgraded spell (or ability). There are currently a couple flaws with how it is set up for leveling and the long-term. Now taking that into consideration, I see that there are a couple outcomes that make the most sense for long-term AP/spell gain from leveling.
Now let's think about what makes it fun to 'ding' and level up. Here are some I personally like:
Thinking back to what Joppa said, the AP system is meant to be a hybrid of (WoW talents & EQ's AA system), I don't think the option #3 above is a great choice for this. As this takes a lot of joy out of spending AP's and getting a new spell from leveling up. What I mean by this is, if you know in a pre-determined fashion that for the next 3-4 levels you will be saving all AP gain for Slow(rank 4) and then for the next 4 levels after that you are saving for Heal(rank 5), at least to me, that is not fun. Also this makes me think of WoW leveling, and how lame it was just to get a new rank of the same ability over and over.
Now for the entire spell line to be upgraded from AP's, I think that could work but it also removes a lot of fun from upgrading (spending) in general. All of your 'excitement' from spending AP's is in the beginning because you want to upgrade your core spells first. Example: Get a new HoT from hitting level 30, and it is already maxed out from the AP's you aquired from lvl's 19-25. Maybe that's not so bad, and I do feel it is a better option than spell 'evolution'.
How it currently is, and without changes leads to needing multiple resets/respecs because you either 1) never spend AP's until you acquired max level of a spell or 2) you spend AP's knowing that they may just be wasted. Neither one of those options are fun either - which leads to the need for frequent respecs (aka WoW). The one pro from this original form is spell downranking, and that could lead to some great longevity for a lower level versions of a spell / spell line.
--- My idea or solution to these potential problems is this: Set a required level for Ability Point spending, but allow the accumulation of Ability Points from leveling. As we saw from this last stream, Cohh was level 40 with 80 AP's to spend (blank slate). That's a similar situation that I think would be the most benficial. The level can be tweaked and balanced around when classes have most of their baseline kit, outside of epic spells/quests/drops. This would allow you to still gain AP's while also keeping all the other 'fun' things from leveling intact. This still promotes the hybridization of WoW talents (AP gain on level up) and the AA customization from EQ (individual/selective upgrading). If you look at what EQ did - it was very similar to this. You had to hit lvl 51 before you could earn/spend AA's. When spells are unlocked, this can/could unlock the lower level spell versions as well, thus still allowing downranking. As a bonus, you allow potential respecs but have them be at a much higher cost - be it a drop, quest, gold, etc. The art is already there for this option as well, you can just keep the plates over the 'pips', that are there for showing the upgrade level.
I think this solution has the best result in keeping Pantheon the same at it's core, while still adding a robust and fun Ability Point system. I am sure there are other great ideas too, the main takeaway from this post is how bad spell 'evolution' would be - at least in my opinion. I love hearing that 'ding' sound, and knowing I need to head to town or wherever my spell vendor/trainer is located.
Seems like it's working as intended. it doesn't lead to multiple respec it leads to having to make a decision and having to live with that decision. Do you want to be a healing focused shaman or a damage dealing shaman? The choice is yours and choose wisely. This system is genius and is aimed to separate the gamesman from the rest.
There are at least two errors in your assumptions:
1st you're assuming that all spells and abilities will have the option to upgrade, I do not think that will be the case.
2nd you're forgetting that you will be able to eventually upgrade ALL your spells and abilities (that have the option of upgrading).
@Fragile - What if, to be able to spend ability points on your abilities, there was an additional requirement - over and above just having the points to spend? That requirement could be anything that made sense - finding a scroll drop, completing a quest for a trainer, finding a special trainer, or even simply having used the base ability enough times or raised an underlying skill to a certain level. Ability points would still act as a currency-based throttle on whether and when you could upgrade abilities, but you would have to clear the other requirements to be able to use them.
How would that potentially impact the system in your view? Would it resolve some of the issues you see with the player experience, or would it make things worse?
Boocher said:Seems like it's working as intended. it doesn't lead to multiple respec it leads to having to make a decision and having to live with that decision. Do you want to be a healing focused shaman or a damage dealing shaman? The choice is yours and choose wisely. This system is genius and is aimed to separate the gamesman from the rest.
Agreed. Choices have consequences. We have to remember that levelling will occur at a fairly slow pace relative to modern MMO's. So spending AP to upgrade a spell early on doesnt mean its an entire waste. It will provide benefits until that next tier version spell, which at base AP may still be better than your upgraded version of the lower tier. The next tier of a spell could be dozens of levels away, months down the road. And it doesnt mean that you cant upgrade the next tier of the spell later, it just means that you have to consider if its worth it to you based on your levelling rate, play time, and how far off you are until the next tier of said spell.
I am also not opposed to having AP spent on tier 1 of x spell apply to tier 2 of x spell when you acquire x spell tier 2. As long as it doesnt apply to "like" spells. It has to apply to a direct upgrade of an existing spell. Your knowledge gained while using skills/spells (AP acquisition and purchase) should not necessarily be lost when the spell you spend it on is upgraded. Perhaps a diminished effect. Spend 1 AP on x spell and get 10% bonus to it. When you get the next tier version of that spell, lets say the AP doesnt completely disappear but only nets you 5% of the AP affect. Just a thought...
Boocher said:Seems like it's working as intended. it doesn't lead to multiple respec it leads to having to make a decision and having to live with that decision. Do you want to be a healing focused shaman or a damage dealing shaman? The choice is yours and choose wisely. This system is genius and is aimed to separate the gamesman from the rest.
I wouldn't use the word genius, setting players up to make the right choice or a poor choice. Shaman are healers, full stop. They will never be near equals to a primary DPS class even if they put every point into it. All this does is give players who try to play off-role (DPS warrior/druid/shaman/etc) a false hope and a platform to complain endlessly at the expense of literally everyone else they might group with.
I think it might be useful for us to take a step back and talk about the experience we want players to have. Ability points are ultimately just a means to an end.
So for example:
- I feel like players should gain access to 60-70% of their base abilities through vertical progression (leveling). They may still need to seek out trainers to learn those abilities, but the level is the requirement
- For the remaining 30-40% of base abilities, players should find these in the world through gameplay in some manner. Either as drops, locked behind special faction trainers, or even as quest rewards.
- I feel like players should be able to evolve or upgrade abilities that they have learned to be more potent or effective. This should be a meaningful choice - meaning that these evolutions or upgrades should not happen often, and players really should have to pick and choose which way they want to go.
- If the mechanism used to enable evolution/upgrades enables players to eventually evolve or upgrade all of their abilities, then no respecs should be allowed. On the other hand, if the number of evolutions or upgrades you can do is capped in some way, then respecs should be allowed but at a very high cost (so that switching is not trivial).
This is what I think I would like to see. Do others agree with this desired experience? If not, how would you adjust it?
If we all agree on where we're going in the end then it becomes easier for VR to implement a method for us to get there.
Ranarius said:There are at least two errors in your assumptions:
1st you're assuming that all spells and abilities will have the option to upgrade, I do not think that will be the case.
2nd you're forgetting that you will be able to eventually upgrade ALL your spells and abilities (that have the option of upgrading).
1st - No, I am not. The spells and abilities that matter are what I am referring to. Abilities that can't be progressed obviously don't matter in this breakdown.
2nd - Not forgetting this either, as the topic and thread refer to are leveling. Obviously at max level, spells and AP's for this system doesn't matter (for the most part). This thread is in relation to leveling up, gaining AP, spending AP - with the reflection on how that will matter and change the spells short-term vs. long-term within the AP system(s).
It's unfortunate that more VIP's aren't chiming in, but oh well - wasted my time.
Fragile said:It's unfortunate that more VIP's aren't chiming in, but oh well - wasted my time.
VIPs are under strict NDA due to Pre Alpha, I believe (though I'm not positive) that them stating they're VIPs would be in violation of that agreement as it implies that they're a tester. There's no real way to know who is and isn't a VIP, unless of course you're also a VIP.
Not everyone checks these forums daily. I try, but sometimes I skip a day here and there simply because of the demands of work and life. Just because I'm a "VIP" pledge (and yes, it's ok for us to reveal our pledge level, though we *do* agree to an NDA that covers some other things) doesn't mean I don't have a day job or that I get any more time than anyone else does.
That said - I don't think it matters whether people responding are VIPs or not. Being able to pledge a higher amount doesn't make our opinions any more or less valid than anyone else's. Ultimately Pantheon is meant to be a game for all of us equally.
I can only speak for myself here, but while I totally understand the concern that Fragile is expressing... I just don't have much that I can really add right now. I'm of the opinion that this, like the LAS, is something that we can't fairly evaluate without actually putting it against the ability set of each and every class - and to do that, we honestly need to be in Alpha testing. Not pre-alpha, but Alpha, so that the team can get large quantities of specific, targeted, experiential feedback. The good news though is that none of this is truly set in stone before then. No matter what we see on a stream, hear in a roundtable, or read in these forums or a dev post, all of this can still be changed at any point based on tester feedback.
I think it's good to talk about the concerns we have with the system and why we have them. Collectively, we as a community have incredibly diverse perspectives on MMORPGs and what makes them good or bad. I also think it's good for us as a community to recognize that we don't always see things the same way, and just because that happens it doesn't mean we should put down others for thinking differently than we do. There's not a single one of us that is exactly right about everything, and the right answer to many of the problems we argue about is almost always somewhere in the middle. If there's some reassurance I can provide, I'll simply say this: In the years since I pledged, the team at VR has proven again and again that they really do read the threads here and listen to our feedback. It may not always be obvious right away, and often it's a process that happens over the course of weeks and months, but they've told us many times now that they read our discussions here and try to evolve their designs based on our feedback. From where I sit, they've given me no reason to doubt that they're doing just that.
Anyway, I do hope that more people - of all pledge levels - will voice their opinions on what "right" should look like when it comes to ability progression - at least with more than just pithy, one-sentence declarations. Even if we're respectfully disagreeing with each other it's still more helpful to VR than for us to stay silent.
Soo, i should proberbly voice my opinion aswell, I'm hoping for a system that makes sure that you always have something other then gear to grind, and it doesn't seem unrealistik that this system might be able to fill that voide. I hope you can't reset the ability points, i hope that you have to make educated guesses on what you want/need to upgrade, and if you find out the choice was wrong, you'll simply have to grind some more points to put them somewhere els.
In regards to the more passive boosts, i hope that will be a thing aswell, and I'm hoping it'll have a level requisit ontop of the AP cost, so you can grind power without leveling so it's easier for a group of friends to level togeather without limiting eachother to much in play time. Along the lines of AA's. I find the preview we got on the stream was nice, and looked like a nice inovative solution.