Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Should agro last forever?

    • 56 posts
    March 1, 2020 4:21 AM PST

    Ranarius said:

    Slight side note/question:  Why are people even against kiting?  It was (and probably will be in this game) a legitimate way for solo players to earn experience.  It's not cheating, it's not without risk, it's not faster.  The only time I ever felt the need to kite back in the day was if I either couldn't find a group or I just didn't have enough time that day to commit to a group.  Kiting was always a back up plan.  I just find it odd that it's even an issue.

    What would you do if you are being kited ? You can't catch your attacker, and it is a certain doom to chase your attacker!. I'd run away, hide or get help. 

    Kiting is just a form of using the dumb AI from the NPC. Sure there are some risks. But the risks are a lot less than an actual fight.

    I prefer a limited aggro range where when the npc thinks it is too far from home it forgets the attacker and forgets aggro, even when dotted and returns home, (while restoring health quickly), to its friends or lair. 

    • 1160 posts
    March 1, 2020 7:03 AM PST

    Qulash said:

    Ranarius said:

    Slight side note/question:  Why are people even against kiting?  It was (and probably will be in this game) a legitimate way for solo players to earn experience.  It's not cheating, it's not without risk, it's not faster.  The only time I ever felt the need to kite back in the day was if I either couldn't find a group or I just didn't have enough time that day to commit to a group.  Kiting was always a back up plan.  I just find it odd that it's even an issue.

    What would you do if you are being kited ? You can't catch your attacker, and it is a certain doom to chase your attacker!. I'd run away, hide or get help. 

    Kiting is just a form of using the dumb AI from the NPC. Sure there are some risks. But the risks are a lot less than an actual fight.

    I prefer a limited aggro range where when the npc thinks it is too far from home it forgets the attacker and forgets aggro, even when dotted and returns home, (while restoring health quickly), to its friends or lair. 

    Not entirely accurate. As a wizard main in EQ, for many years I dueled many a tank Class and the strategy was always to kite them, and never once did one turn and run. There strategy was always that they would resist the snare,and finally get there hands,on me, and being a glass cannon things would be over quick at that point.

    "Run away" you would shame every warrior I ever knew, they would gladly die, but never run.

    • 600 posts
    March 1, 2020 7:12 AM PST
    In EQ meele had very few abilities, No gap closers and such.

    Hopefully in Pantheon npcs will have some way to do ranged damage, have gap closer or other ways to make kiting harder. I do hope its a possible strat to kite but it should not be as easy as it was in EQ.
    • 1785 posts
    March 1, 2020 7:32 AM PST

    Zorkon said:

     

    Not entirely accurate. As a wizard main in EQ, for many years I dueled many a tank Class and the strategy was always to kite them, and never once did one turn and run. There strategy was always that they would resist the snare,and finally get there hands,on me, and being a glass cannon things would be over quick at that point.

    "Run away" you would shame every warrior I ever knew, they would gladly die, but never run.

     

    NPC shouldn't consider death as meaningless as well :P Duellers still try to catch it because they don't loose anything when dead, but NPC are supposed to care a bit about themselves...

    • 1160 posts
    March 1, 2020 7:37 AM PST

    BamBam said: In EQ meele had very few abilities, No gap closers and such. Hopefully in Pantheon npcs will have some way to do ranged damage, have gap closer or other ways to make kiting harder. I do hope its a possible strat to kite but it should not be as easy as it was in EQ.

    Yes, that would be exciting. I'm already cautiously optimistic about the dispositions for example the alarmest, and are we going to KNOW the mob is alramest or not before we pull it. I envision attempting a quad kite, pull the 4th expecting to now group them up for the snare and the damn thing run to opposite direction screaming his damn fool head off bringing the whole camp down on me. 

    Lol, exciting times!

    • 248 posts
    March 5, 2020 3:53 PM PST

    Boy, a difficult topic. Since I never played the original EQ, I've never had the pleasure of playing a game with infinite follow. I've always been pretty happy with the leashing mechanics in other games I've played, and haven't felt that they make the game too easy. I would actually be more concerned that infinite follow would make the game "too hard" in a tedious sort of way wherein the player would always have to be on pins and needles for fear of aggroing that extra mob and having no recourse but to run all the way to the zone line if they did. This seems to me like an unnaturally harsh sort of "challenge" that might detract from the fun of the game more than add to it. However, on the flip side, I do understand the concern that some players may have that leashing makes things too easy. It would be great if a new mechanic like those discussed above could be introduced to balance things out, though I don't personally have any thoughts on how that should work.

    Short answer: No to infinite follow, but open to new alternatives to simple leashing.


    This post was edited by Gyldervane at March 5, 2020 3:54 PM PST
    • 169 posts
    March 29, 2020 5:43 PM PDT

    Agro should  be until you zone, play dead, KO or kill the mob. Agro should put that fear into all players who think they can just run across zones without fear if they can run fast enough or if a party fights something they cannot handle reguardless of level. It will make players think what mistakes they made and not do it again.If there is no repercussions for trying or doing somthing silly then what is the point of having agro then? Agro as I mentioned before is a good tool to keep the players in check who think they can beat the system.


    This post was edited by Oldwargoat39 at March 29, 2020 5:46 PM PDT
    • 600 posts
    March 29, 2020 8:53 PM PDT
    @Oldwar yet agro that lasts forever is a system easily beaten. Look at bards in EQ :)
    • 1160 posts
    March 29, 2020 9:54 PM PDT

    BamBam said: @Oldwar yet agro that lasts forever is a system easily beaten. Look at bards in EQ :)

    Well agro in EQ didn't last forever, only to zone line. And are you suggesting we can all circumvent not having leasing by all rolling Bards, or should Warriors and Wizards be able to play a Mistmore Drum.

    I think you do point out a great feature I'm hoping to see in Pantheon. Untethered Agro will be less relevant to a bard, just like lack of teleport stones will be less relevant to a Wizard or Druid, just as experience loss on death will likely be less relevant to a Cleric.

    • 600 posts
    March 30, 2020 4:54 AM PDT
    Im saying that with agro lasting forever within the zone is easily handled by most classes, and can be a abused in responce to what Oldwar said. That it is needed in order for people to feel fear in zones.

    And I disagree, i do not think its a needed element to experiance fear. I think many of the ways and ideas we talked about in this thread, will bring even more good gameplay additions and the feel of fear also.
    • 1127 posts
    March 30, 2020 5:29 AM PDT

    Pros of agro to zone line:

    1)      Even the littlest bunny could in theory threaten you until you zone

    2)      Easy to program

    3)      Very familiar for people who played and enjoyed EQ

    4)      Possible to create massive stampede trains (is this a pro or a con?)

    Cons of agro to zone:

    1)      Creates the situation where everyone hugs zone lines and boundary walls rather than experience 90% of the zone because agro is too dangerous.

    2)      Does not allow for any form of controlled disengage from a failing encounter.

    3)      Very simplistic in terms of AI which does not look good compared to other modern game AIs.

    4)      Possible to create massive stampede trains (is this a pro or a con? Personally I think trains are stupid and annoying not challenging or fun)

    Good Alternatives to agro to zone:

    1)      Disposition driven maximum follow distances with at least one having agro to zone.

    2)      Shorter follow distances but with movement and damage penalties for each monster you have agroed such that agroing a group even when at much higher level can be fatal.  Call it a gang up bonus of x% speed reduction and 2x% increase damage taken scaled by the number of mobs agroed.

    3)      A complex follow system based on the total threat generated, disposition modifiers, gang up bonuses, and defensive zones with tactical options to disengage (taking up LAS slots too boot)

    • 118 posts
    March 30, 2020 12:04 PM PDT

    It depends, realistically we shouldnt be able to outrun bears, big cats etc so running isnt an option.
    However, things we can outrun, like slower animals or bandits, realisticially arent going to chase us forever, especially the animals.

    I really dont think enemy npcs should chase you to the ends of the earth and honestly would it really make a difference in any way.
    The only thing it willl change is that if you pull too many mobs alone you die each time.
    In the long run that will prove very annoying and not a thing people would want.

    • 37 posts
    March 30, 2020 2:40 PM PDT

    I don't like the idea of infinite aggro only because it can be more annoying than anything. It would be more dynamic and immersive to have varying aggro types based on the NPC. It would be fairly simple to add aggro ranges to dispositions as well, but there have been a few good ideas in here that VR will hopefully take a look at.

    • 75 posts
    April 8, 2020 8:57 PM PDT
    I liked BamBam's take.
    Adding to the yes side: it increases risk , either to time management or towards general peril.
    I liked the trains.
    I think a policing mitigating element either automatic or guided is something that could be played with.
    But agro could be something that is malleable or is non-static. Changing the value from season to season.

    Thoughts upon a rut season for some creature or group etc. Etc. Blah blah. You get the point
    • 1616 posts
    April 9, 2020 12:18 AM PDT

    Honestly in original EQ with infinite follow isn't what made EQ dangerous, it was that they ran faster than normal movement speed, and some even ran at the speed of SoW, so the infinite follow was meaningless if you didn't have a way to actually get away, granted many classes did, but it wasn't always guaranteed, you always had to play your character correctly, so yes infinite follow simply by itself would be pretty dull, but if you add in some things to bring it to life than the infinite follow is the least you have to worry about.

    Plus back than if your a caster and ran into something that stunned you and you got resisted like twice casting some kind of CC it usually spelled your death, and also trying to run away from them basically guaranteed you to be stunned at least once.


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at April 9, 2020 12:20 AM PDT
    • 67 posts
    April 9, 2020 5:47 PM PDT

    Reason I like unrelenting aggro:

    Its more immersion breaking for a mob to have a predefined area of attack, run away and forget about you, than continue their pursuit.

    The added level of intensity knowing that if you make the wrong step you could be in a world of hurt adds the level of excitement and danger missing from all modern MMOs. 

    I will go a step further and say they need to add an endurance 'run away' meter that limits your ability to infinitely run away from an attacking mob. You should get tired and slow down, or suffer increased attack damage if your back is turned to the mob.

    Trains are fun, funny, and hilarious.

     

     


    This post was edited by ghost7 at April 9, 2020 5:50 PM PDT
    • 100 posts
    April 10, 2020 2:27 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    BamBam said: Yes and No answers please.

    Frame the question better next time...

    The answer is it should depend upon the NPC.  An animal NPC should chase until the player leaves its 'home territory' like a bear chasing off something that got too close to it's den.  That distance can, and should, vary.  A wyvern could chase for much much further.

    A societal NPC, like Goblins, Orcs, etc should also chase until you are well outside their territory, further than an animal would chase, and they should do it with far more numbers.

    'Mindless' undead, like Skeletons, Zombies, Ghouls or any 'mindless' entity should chase you forever.  A powerful Lich would eventually stop.

    If, however, you're in a dungeon, the inhabitants of that dungeon should chase you until you leave the dungeon.  After all, that dungeon is the entirety of their home territory.

     

    I like this way =)

    • 866 posts
    April 10, 2020 8:13 AM PDT

    No - unless you killed a friend or loved one, then I would likely hate you forever; But even then I wouldn't go too far out of my way, or abandon my post to get my revenge... >:)

    • 169 posts
    April 10, 2020 12:03 PM PDT

    who here has seen how funny some trains are from a distance and you see in chat "help help help" while that person is being chased by a huge group of mobs? Or even caused one and how funny was it when you know you messed up and there was nothing you could do but to run for zone knowing all too well you won't make it? I had done both and it is funny on both sides. I just made sure when i did train no one else got caught up in t,but gave a goood show for others to see XD

    • 866 posts
    April 10, 2020 1:55 PM PDT

    I'm sure there will be some form of kiting allowed, so having shorter "leashes" will mean kiters may require more skillz :)

    • 600 posts
    April 10, 2020 10:39 PM PDT
    Kiting is cool and has always been a decent way to solo or to team up with a couple of mates.

    Ill say again im not looking for a short leash with an easy getaway option for the player. Im looking for an interesting system that can challenge the player in many ways, not just one.