Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Should agro last forever?

    • 600 posts
    February 24, 2020 3:53 AM PST
    Yes and No answers please.
    • 1160 posts
    February 24, 2020 5:11 AM PST

    BamBam said: Yes and No answers please.

     

    One word answers are not allowed, and the question is too vague for a simple yes or no... define forever.

    Should it last for a month until the next time you enter that zone? NO

    Should it last until you clear it by zoning or spell or something, YES

    • 600 posts
    February 24, 2020 5:34 AM PST

    In the latest steam the devs quickly talked about agro and leashing. Witch would be untill zoneing or fegien death or similar agro delete ability is used.

    But with intelligent Ai and npcs, should that be the case for all agro?

    I think its an outdated way to do it. If a mindless rageing ghoul agro me "forever" its ok, because its mindless and will charge without having any physical limitations or having any other agenda.

    If a troll guard that is posted to keep guard at a specific spot, runs at me "forever" i would put up some questionmarks.


    This post was edited by BamBam at February 24, 2020 7:10 AM PST
    • 1127 posts
    February 24, 2020 6:15 AM PST

    Infinite follow is just lazy game design.  It creates so many immersion breaking situations tied to zone line manipulation.  It also forces players to hug zone lines and sit in safe camps because not having a retreat or withdraw option eliminates an entire avenue of tactical play, most of the Sun Tzu Art of War is about when and how to retreat or force your enemy to.

    Better than infinite follow or equally manipulate-able leashing would be have follow based on threat levels and areas of defense and give mobs gang up bonuses.

    If the mob is inside their area of defense, then they will follow infinitely.  The defense zone will be fairly small fort static spawns and fairly large for patrollers.

    When outside their defense zone the threat on the mob will decay exponentially after the player attempts a disengage action and stops taking addition threatening actions.  Threat will roughly be based on standard threat generation as well as a threat generation for just being in their defensive zone.  In this way if you have killed a mobs teammate and or have done significant damage to them then they will likely follow you a long distance.  If you just brushed by them and no one else was following you they would give up fairly easily.

    To counter just running through packs of mobs I would give mobs gang-up bonuses.  If you have more than 1 mob per person in your group agroed on you they start to get a damage bonus. Which increases exponentially.  If you have more than say 5 mobs per group member agroed on you then they apply snaring effects to their target making it much harder to run away.

    Effects like feign death will really more operate like a threat reducer rather than an agro wipe.  They may still take a couple of swings at your corpse just for fun if there is a lot of threat built up.  Likewise certain dispositions could have large defense zones, vicious streaks (mutilates corpses feigned or otherwise), holds grudges (slow to burn off threat after a disengage) or berserker (you or it dies).  I would also have mobs zone with you if at all possible but that may be prevented by the tech.

    • 2713 posts
    February 24, 2020 6:48 AM PST

    No. Not for any mobs with even animal levels of intelligence or with programmed parameters (mindless guards set to protect a particular area). 

    • 600 posts
    February 24, 2020 7:16 AM PST

    I also think its a lazy way to handle a very important game mechanic.
    Im sad its talked about as a "good" thing from the devs over and over. 

    To me theres only one reson to keep it, and thats the nostalgia from Eq. But for me that not a valid reson at all.
    So im interested in hearing the forum out, a short yes or no would work for me.
    But if you want to explain your answer please go ahead.

    • 1605 posts
    February 24, 2020 7:35 AM PST

    Similar to dispositions, I think this should be something that developers should be able to set on a mob type basis.  Examples:

    Territorial - the mob will pursue players that have wronged it within XX meters of its spawn area.

     

    Protector - the mob will pursue players that have wronged it if they currently have threat with any nearby allied mobs of the same race/faction

    Avenger - the mob will pursue players anywhere within the zone if the players have killed XXXXXXX

    Tracker - the mob will pursue players that have wronged it anywhere within the zone

    Vendetta - the mob will pursue players that have wronged it within XX meters of its spawn area.  If players later re-enter this radius, the mob will remember them and immediately attack.

     

    In combination with dispositions that might impact how threat is generated, this allows for developers to customize mob behavior for a more nuanced game experience.

     

    • 255 posts
    February 24, 2020 7:51 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    Similar to dispositions, I think this should be something that developers should be able to set on a mob type basis.  Examples:

    Territorial - the mob will pursue players that have wronged it within XX meters of its spawn area.

     

    Protector - the mob will pursue players that have wronged it if they currently have threat with any nearby allied mobs of the same race/faction

    Avenger - the mob will pursue players anywhere within the zone if the players have killed XXXXXXX

    Tracker - the mob will pursue players that have wronged it anywhere within the zone

    Vendetta - the mob will pursue players that have wronged it within XX meters of its spawn area.  If players later re-enter this radius, the mob will remember them and immediately attack.

     

    In combination with dispositions that might impact how threat is generated, this allows for developers to customize mob behavior for a more nuanced game experience.

     

     

    I was thinking something similar, where its based on specific AI types and what specific mobs are tasked with doing. 

    • 671 posts
    February 24, 2020 8:32 AM PST

    Tie the agro chase, to the agro amount. As in, if you turn and run, then the agro you built up slowly ticks down, and the mob will follow until that ticker is depleted or your zone/spell, etc.

     

    So running passed a KOS mob,he will give chase but stop and return much sooner than one you started battle with then ran.

     

    But I also think LoS, needs to be in play, a mob on the other side of the zone that can't see me, shoudl not take up agro again. (Similar to same zone gating after agro in EQ, eventually the mob finds you, because your didn't clear agro, you just gated to the other end of the zone.)

     

    Just like a mobs health will begin to regen if you cut a fight short, so should the agro deplete at a pre-defined rate until you are no longer agro.

     


    This post was edited by Fulton at February 24, 2020 8:33 AM PST
    • 680 posts
    February 24, 2020 8:40 AM PST

    One refinement I'd like to see on any mob is a total refusal for it to suicide by chasing you into town or a guard post.  

    • 801 posts
    February 24, 2020 8:47 AM PST

    I'm fine with either infinite aggro or some evanescing version. What interests me is the emergent player behavior that will undoutably develop to exploit whatever the devs program into the mobs. Kiting in EQ always seemed like a silly thing for intelligent mobs to suffer, but the code rules all. Smart players will observe and take advantage.

    • 374 posts
    February 24, 2020 9:00 AM PST

    I am indifferent.

    I'm seeing a lot of cool ideas but to me this is one of those issues that just doesn't matter.  People will agree or disagree on this one and there will be good and bad reasons for both arguments.  I'm NOT saying that it should not be discussed, I'm just giving my opinion :)  I'm ok with any design regarding agro.  I will learn the system they put in place, whatever it is.  

    One thing I certainly like about agro lasting forever is the feeling of danger.  Once you agro something you can not feel safe until it is dead or you leave the zone.  I just don't want it to be easy to clear yourself of agro.  I think if you make a wrong step and something sees you, there should be a penalty for that mistake...not simply "run for 10 seconds and you're OK"  

    Ok, now that I've talked a tiny bit about it, I guess I'm not really indifferent after all haha.  


    This post was edited by Ranarius at February 24, 2020 9:01 AM PST
    • 24 posts
    February 24, 2020 9:03 AM PST

    I mean, if I got to choose between different methods of aggro and there was no cost or time of development, I would choose an emergent AI system like the EQ Next developers were talking about.

    For those not familiar, it's goal was to make appropriate levels of intelligence for each creature type.  These creatures would exist and pursue their own goals.  An example is a band of orcs that formed naturally and works together to attack caravans on a nearby road.  If players came and started protecting those caravans, the orcs would leave to find easier pickings elsewhere.  But if they left those caravans to fend for themselves, perhaps those caravans would start hiring guards.  That same mentality would govern how long they would chase or if they would flee, etc.

    Its a hugely interesting, realistic, and immersive idea to handle mobs... But also idealistic, costly, and probably impossible.

    There are compromises, but honestly I'm good with zone line (infinite) aggro.

    • 255 posts
    February 24, 2020 9:15 AM PST

    Primalpat said:

    I mean, if I got to choose between different methods of aggro and there was no cost or time of development, I would choose an emergent AI system like the EQ Next developers were talking about.

    For those not familiar, it's goal was to make appropriate levels of intelligence for each creature type.  These creatures would exist and pursue their own goals.  An example is a band of orcs that formed naturally and works together to attack caravans on a nearby road.  If players came and started protecting those caravans, the orcs would leave to find easier pickings elsewhere.  But if they left those caravans to fend for themselves, perhaps those caravans would start hiring guards.  That same mentality would govern how long they would chase or if they would flee, etc.

    Its a hugely interesting, realistic, and immersive idea to handle mobs... But also idealistic, costly, and probably impossible.

    There are compromises, but honestly I'm good with zone line (infinite) aggro.

     

    I was looking forward to that aspect of EQN too, what was it? Storybricks or something like that... But I think it failed miserably when in action. It would require some intervention to ensure that all the AI camps simply didnt just go and hide somewhere where it was safer. 

    • 1941 posts
    February 24, 2020 9:51 AM PST

    BamBam said: Yes and No answers please.

    Frame the question better next time...

    The answer is it should depend upon the NPC.  An animal NPC should chase until the player leaves its 'home territory' like a bear chasing off something that got too close to it's den.  That distance can, and should, vary.  A wyvern could chase for much much further.

    A societal NPC, like Goblins, Orcs, etc should also chase until you are well outside their territory, further than an animal would chase, and they should do it with far more numbers.

    'Mindless' undead, like Skeletons, Zombies, Ghouls or any 'mindless' entity should chase you forever.  A powerful Lich would eventually stop.

    If, however, you're in a dungeon, the inhabitants of that dungeon should chase you until you leave the dungeon.  After all, that dungeon is the entirety of their home territory.

    • 1290 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:36 AM PST

    both mah dude.

    dispositions allow a bit of creativity here such as:

    coward (this could be no)

    insane (rng yes and no)

    stubborn(this could be yes for aggro infinitely)

     

    • 72 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:48 AM PST

    I believe that mechanics cannot be valued isolated from the context in which this
    although it is not seen in the currents they say it in many of them the game is being designed so that the groups establish a camp and throw the mobs to the camp
    with that design would it make any sense that the mobs would turn halfway through pull?

    on the other hand that the mobs chase you always gives a feeling of constant danger the world is a challenge in itself and must be respected I think that goes very much in the line of Pantheon

    They also said I think even before they announced the provisions that there would be certain mobs that when I pulled them instead of following you immediately they would go looking for partners before going for you alarmists, I think they called them, maybe other provisions that didn't tell us how guards that do not move from where they are

    • 600 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:59 AM PST
    @Vandraad Sry i initially was only interested in, if ppl was for or against the infinint leach. To see if i was the only one thinking its a bad ide (atleast for every mob).

    So many of you link it to disposition witch i think would be a huge improvement and an i interesting way to do it. But only a few mobs have dispositions, so there has to be a basic agro type maybe deppending on npc type. Undead, Elemental, animal, humaniod and so on.

    Just to clearify im not arguing for an easy escape, im arguing for a modern system that can have interesting gameplay and tactics involved deppending on npc type, area your fighting in and what ever VR findes needed to create an enhanced player experiance and to solitify immertion.
    • 13 posts
    February 24, 2020 1:57 PM PST

    Personally, I would prefer it to not be infinite aggro. Please correct me if I am wrong, but there are not going to be instanced dungeons in Pantheon, right? Since it is all in the open, infinite aggro may lead to some abusive situations. Although entertaining, kiting a boss to a safe hub or city can lead to chaos. I do like the idea of aggro being different given the mob type, it definitely would make it more immersive and engaging.

    • 1547 posts
    February 24, 2020 2:40 PM PST

    I understand the "not realistic" argument but in games, leashing mobs just leads to easy mode.  It is very exploitable.  Makes it easier to pull/split in many situations etc. 

    Being able to run by things and know they will leash goes against some of the game tenants. 

    I would prefer that aggroing something has greater consequences than just having them leash.  Aggro dropping abilities and zoning should be more than enough options for players.  Lets not minimize the risk further.

    • 374 posts
    February 24, 2020 2:51 PM PST

    Enkidu said:

    Personally, I would prefer it to not be infinite aggro. Please correct me if I am wrong, but there are not going to be instanced dungeons in Pantheon, right? Since it is all in the open, infinite aggro may lead to some abusive situations. Although entertaining, kiting a boss to a safe hub or city can lead to chaos. I do like the idea of aggro being different given the mob type, it definitely would make it more immersive and engaging.

    You are correct that there will not be instances, but I think you might not be totally understanding zones.  There will be zone lines, and dungeons will have zone lines.  When you leave a zone the agro will drop.  But no, the zones will not be instanced.

    • 1785 posts
    February 24, 2020 3:16 PM PST

    Infinite for playing more carefully. I'm however not for open spaces area where "you cannot to 5 meters without aggroing some random snake".

    • 778 posts
    February 24, 2020 6:50 PM PST

    IMO, random could be interesing. Sometimes chase you across the zone, sometimes not. Maybe make it part of Lore. Some NPCs will, some won't.

    • 487 posts
    February 24, 2020 7:46 PM PST

    Trasak said:

    Infinite follow is just lazy game design.

    I agree. EQ had it's limitations and this was one of them. WoW came in and made it too easy to leash. I think a middle ground solution would fit the best. Some (not all) of those ideas have been listed above.

    @OP - No.

    • 643 posts
    February 24, 2020 7:47 PM PST

    Leashing screwed up so much of the game.

     

    Hopefully good AI will replce stupid leashing.

     

    Aggro should not be finite or infinite - it should all be variable and depend.  Maybe it depends how much hate you generated.   An NPC that really hates you and that was really hurt by you should be more likely to hold aggro (grudge) for a long time.   An NPC that kinda dislikes you might attack if you get too close but isnt going to bother chasing you all over, similarly it should clear aggro sooner.

     

    It should all depend.