Flossie said:To add... There should absolutely be no server transfers or name changes. It enables toxicity and allows people to run from their reputation.
Eh even in early EQ you could get name changes, but it had to manually be done by a GM. i would argue that it doesnt necessarily enable people to run from their reputation, as people that are toxic, dont really change their behaviour with just a name change (And even if they do, then good they are no longer toxic).
Edit: Changing servers could be seen as running, but again, if they are still an [explicative] then they cant really escape the consequences as they will end up with the same reputation on another server.
arazons said:Flossie said:To add... There should absolutely be no server transfers or name changes. It enables toxicity and allows people to run from their reputation.
Eh even in early EQ you could get name changes, but it had to manually be done by a GM. i would argue that it doesnt necessarily enable people to run from their reputation, as people that are toxic, dont really change their behaviour with just a name change (And even if they do, then good they are no longer toxic).
Edit: Changing servers could be seen as running, but again, if they are still an [explicative] then they cant really escape the consequences as they will end up with the same reputation on another server.
In a game as group-oriented as Pantheon, your reputation matters more as you'll generally require the help of others. My point is more that it would allow someone to be toxic knowing that they can just change their name and/or server down the road if their reputation became a hinderance. This type of behavior shouldn't be enabled and knowing that your character's reputation matters will generally encourage people to act like decent human beings. Obviously toxic people can still band together in an attempt to progress, but they will still be known as toxic and won't receive much outside help from the community. Toxic guilds tend to implode and they wouldn't have access to as many resources, so forcing them into a clique with a negative reputation is still a good thing.
While not a perfect fit, this seems, to me, to be relevant to this discussion. hee hee.
Zorkon said:Kilsin said:Community Debate - Would you support a Cosmetic/Merchandise store if it helped development and steered clear of Pay2Win boosts and items? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
in game Cosmetics no, not at all and I would feel it's a betrayal of trust. If I'm paying a Sub I expect the developers to be creating actual content. that I can obtain without additional cost... Putting game content in a store is double dipping.
Outside of the game Merch, is a differant story. What you have now cup's, shirt's ect all good, add in some race class models, posters, maps, it's all good
I have nothing else to add to this. Cash shops with in-game items would be terrible idea. Real merchandise will land on my desk sooner or later.
Should we ever get housing or player shops, opinions may vary, but I think it would be fine to have decor items, like wall art, furniture, figurines, wall mounted trophy's, Book and Quill to write and display your own stories, other possibility's, either digital or physical- tradable collector cards with limited quantity and a full set granting a treasure map, or Mini Kilsin and Dev action Figures.
HemlockReaper said:Should we ever get housing or player shops, opinions may vary, but I think it would be fine to have decor items, like wall art, furniture, figurines, wall mounted trophy's, Book and Quill to write and display your own stories, other possibility's, either digital or physical- tradable collector cards with limited quantity and a full set granting a treasure map, or Mini Kilsin and Dev action Figures.
Decor items etc. could and should be craftable or obtainable from merchants for in-game currency (common and/or special).
Hegenox said:HemlockReaper said:Should we ever get housing or player shops, opinions may vary, but I think it would be fine to have decor items, like wall art, furniture, figurines, wall mounted trophy's, Book and Quill to write and display your own stories, other possibility's, either digital or physical- tradable collector cards with limited quantity and a full set granting a treasure map, or Mini Kilsin and Dev action Figures.
Decor items etc. could and should be craftable or obtainable from merchants for in-game currency (common and/or special).
As long as theres no crafting profession being hindered by it(unknowable at this point), and the items are tradable in game, I don’t see why it matters.
I don't need every item I collect to be a declaration of my in game adventures. I’m likely to spent as much or more time decoration my quarters, Than adventuring, and id rather just be able to get what I want when I want it, so saith south of fifty.
I echo those who have said no no no no. I do not care two figs for cosmetics, but the problem is A) once the bottle is opened, IT NEVER stops at cosmetics. NEVER. NO matter what you swear up and down. B) A game like this, a game like EQ, community type games have a strong element of seeing a character and knowing where they got that sword, how they got that armor, etc. Even how they got that hair color...nothing should be unearned in this game, or earned through cash. NOTHING. Server moves etc, should be customer service issues, not currencies to be exchanged for dollars as a convenience. Obviously I think many, like me would be willing to pay a healthy fee to play. Let us face it, if the game sees release and holds true to what it was meant and claimed to be from the beginning, it is a niche game and a niche audience. By its very nature, it will and should have an element of "if you do not like X, then go play something else." Well, the monthly is part of that to me. I would easily justify $20 a month (or even more if it was truly the EQ/VG style successor I crave). Certainly $20 a month should cover a lot of expenses and it just really is not a lot of money. For most people it is 3 trips to Starbucks (or less) a month. If you can't or don't want to pay it, no big deal, the attitude should be it is not for you. Just like the group elements, the difficulty, the grind, etc. No hard feelings but go play something else. Cash shops are the type of "compromise" that starts making the vision something it isn't or shouldn't be.
A link to the merch store somewhere in a UI menu is fine with me as long as I don't ever have to see advertising during gameplay or logging in/out. A toggle for those who want to see it is fine.
Products that help any form of player advancement, in any sphere, are EVIL. They are an addiction to those that can afford them, and an affront to those that cannot. Few things could more adversely affect my feelings toward VR as a company.
Decor items for housing and guild halls are fine, although I'd hope that crafters would get recipes to make similar items that are at least competetive if not higher quality.
I believe it was once stated that if cosmetic gear (that changes players' appearance) is put into the game, there will also be a toggle that I can use to turn off such altered appearances on OTHER players. If this statement is and remains true, then I care not if the store sells such items to those who want them. Though again, similar items should ideally be available through crafting.
IF others can buy appearance items that I am not able to avoid seeing regularly, then I am against the selling of them. I don't want to see (for example) a suit of armor that I instantly love and want, only to find out that no amount of grinding, questing or crafting will get it, only the expenditure of cash. Such an item falls into the category mentioned in my second point.
Giant YES for Mini-Kilsin action figure!
Flossie said:arazons said:Flossie said:To add... There should absolutely be no server transfers or name changes. It enables toxicity and allows people to run from their reputation.
Eh even in early EQ you could get name changes, but it had to manually be done by a GM. i would argue that it doesnt necessarily enable people to run from their reputation, as people that are toxic, dont really change their behaviour with just a name change (And even if they do, then good they are no longer toxic).
Edit: Changing servers could be seen as running, but again, if they are still an [explicative] then they cant really escape the consequences as they will end up with the same reputation on another server.
In a game as group-oriented as Pantheon, your reputation matters more as you'll generally require the help of others. My point is more that it would allow someone to be toxic knowing that they can just change their name and/or server down the road if their reputation became a hinderance. This type of behavior shouldn't be enabled and knowing that your character's reputation matters will generally encourage people to act like decent human beings. Obviously toxic people can still band together in an attempt to progress, but they will still be known as toxic and won't receive much outside help from the community. Toxic guilds tend to implode and they wouldn't have access to as many resources, so forcing them into a clique with a negative reputation is still a good thing.
yeah, that's what I meant by "selling medevil style indulgences", I thought I fleshed out the point well enough. The point being, if VR can manage it well enough, to exploit that toxic behavior to a profitable end. if - to coin a phrase- haters are going to hate, and will want to then leave and go elsewhere, they can do so if their pockets are deep enough.
Likewise, someone who wants to dabble in the darkside- safely in the confines in their robe (westworld, anyone? the original, not the new. ok the new, too. Or like the recent "Surrogates" with Bruce willis, but behind the screen in this case and facing Terminus) can do so. Set up a new account, and sub for it.
It may be a way to get multiple subscriptions from so called "whales" (emperors that have no clothes) that many cash shop proponents that sell pixilated goods to, sucessfully, keep touting as being crucial. (you get ONE whale that spend 100k and you're set, they say)
Instead of selling invisible clothes, sell the emperor a way out of in-game sins yet to be committed, their choice for the price of a sub
and again for the price of a transfer if they must
and again for the price of a name change.
Merchandise store outside with goods for outside the game. Sure. What ever suits your fancy. I can see a lot of potential retail and fun real life decorative items coming from ingame content or lore.
Any cosmetic in game; very risky but...
I would say, yes
*) ONLY if there are no benefits to the account or character who's making the purchase at the time or will benefit ingame from that purchase in the future.
*) AND only if the content related to that cosmetic item has already been consumed by the character in the game itself.
Meaning: If I completed a signature quest. I'm ok with being able to purchase cosmetics with that character that allows me some house items or wearables that are derived from that signature quest. It goes without saying that items coming from such a purchase can not be traded or otherwise transferred to other characters or accounts/players.
No accountwide benefits, so if that character has not done the ingame content, they do not have access to the cosmetic shop relating to that content.
Manouk said:Flossie said:arazons said:Flossie said:To add... There should absolutely be no server transfers or name changes. It enables toxicity and allows people to run from their reputation.
Eh even in early EQ you could get name changes, but it had to manually be done by a GM. i would argue that it doesnt necessarily enable people to run from their reputation, as people that are toxic, dont really change their behaviour with just a name change (And even if they do, then good they are no longer toxic).
Edit: Changing servers could be seen as running, but again, if they are still an [explicative] then they cant really escape the consequences as they will end up with the same reputation on another server.
In a game as group-oriented as Pantheon, your reputation matters more as you'll generally require the help of others. My point is more that it would allow someone to be toxic knowing that they can just change their name and/or server down the road if their reputation became a hinderance. This type of behavior shouldn't be enabled and knowing that your character's reputation matters will generally encourage people to act like decent human beings. Obviously toxic people can still band together in an attempt to progress, but they will still be known as toxic and won't receive much outside help from the community. Toxic guilds tend to implode and they wouldn't have access to as many resources, so forcing them into a clique with a negative reputation is still a good thing.
yeah, that's what I meant by "selling medevil style indulgences", I thought I fleshed out the point well enough. The point being, if VR can manage it well enough, to exploit that toxic behavior to a profitable end. if - to coin a phrase- haters are going to hate, and will want to then leave and go elsewhere, they can do so if their pockets are deep enough.
Likewise, someone who wants to dabble in the darkside- safely in the confines in their robe (westworld, anyone? the original, not the new. ok the new, too. Or like the recent "Surrogates" with Bruce willis, but behind the screen in this case and facing Terminus) can do so. Set up a new account, and sub for it.
It may be a way to get multiple subscriptions from so called "whales" (emperors that have no clothes) that many cash shop proponents that sell pixilated goods to, sucessfully, keep touting as being crucial. (you get ONE whale that spend 100k and you're set, they say)
Instead of selling invisible clothes, sell the emperor a way out of in-game sins yet to be committed, their choice for the price of a sub
and again for the price of a transfer if they must
and again for the price of a name change.
Could have something like a reputation system like UO had, where when you perform bad acts, people have a choice to report you as as a criminal or murderer.
But expand on it to include things like training, greifing etc, ninja looter, not completing a zone, doesnt know class, rude, doesnt play well with others, etc... where a rating tick is only done via a group vote to have some oversight on the system. Then bolt that information onto peoples inspect window. And make it account wide, so that they cannot hide from it even after a rename or server transfer.
HemlockReaper said:Hegenox said:HemlockReaper said:Should we ever get housing or player shops, opinions may vary, but I think it would be fine to have decor items, like wall art, furniture, figurines, wall mounted trophy's, Book and Quill to write and display your own stories, other possibility's, either digital or physical- tradable collector cards with limited quantity and a full set granting a treasure map, or Mini Kilsin and Dev action Figures.
Decor items etc. could and should be craftable or obtainable from merchants for in-game currency (common and/or special).
As long as theres no crafting profession being hindered by it(unknowable at this point), and the items are tradable in game, I don’t see why it matters.
I don't need every item I collect to be a declaration of my in game adventures. I’m likely to spent as much or more time decoration my quarters, Than adventuring, and id rather just be able to get what I want when I want it, so saith south of fifty.
That's why I've said "(...) or obtainable from merchants for in-game currency (common and/or special)." You'd be able to decorate you'r house with common furnitures and trinkets just by farming currency in the first zone if that would be your preference - you wouldn't be able to have the biggest-prettiest mansion minutes from beginning your adventure just becouse you've chosen to spend a RL money (money from different universe) however. I belive there are tons of RL item ideas (that for overwhelming majority should be more desireable than virtual items) to raise money for the purpouse of the game making without a need of contaminating the game with redundant and unfair items and breaking a promise of no item shop.
arazons said:Could have something like a reputation system like UO had, where when you perform bad acts, people have a choice to report you as as a criminal or murderer.
But expand on it to include things like training, greifing etc, ninja looter, not completing a zone, doesnt know class, rude, doesnt play well with others, etc... where a rating tick is only done via a group vote to have some oversight on the system. Then bolt that information onto peoples inspect window. And make it account wide, so that they cannot hide from it even after a rename or server transfer.
Like china? Do you see the potential danger in this approach? In the era of "politics" and "optics" certainly this would be abused to defame others. We should let the server form its own opinions, and we should let the guilty hide on alts like roaches if they choose (publicly document name changes). Thats the reward of a scoundrel. To sit behind a keyboard in the dark totally anonymous.
arazons said:Could have something like a reputation system like UO had, where when you perform bad acts, people have a choice to report you as as a criminal or murderer.
But expand on it to include things like training, greifing etc, ninja looter, not completing a zone, doesnt know class, rude, doesnt play well with others, etc... where a rating tick is only done via a group vote to have some oversight on the system. Then bolt that information onto peoples inspect window. And make it account wide, so that they cannot hide from it even after a rename or server transfer.
Such systems are open to exploitation and rampant abuse. I could just report you for whatever just because I want to. Guilds could just circle-jerk spam good rating ticks on all their members. It then makes these ratings immatial and ignored by everyone.
But really though, individual reputation will mean nothing IF you're part of a wholly self sufficient guild. Yes, back in the day when everyone came into these games as individuals then made friends, etc, our individual reputation was important. But now? People move into games as part of complete guilds, pre-set to meet all the needs of their guild without any input from the outside. Why should I care one whit about how you think of me when I only group with in my guild and they meet all my adventuring, socializing and crafting needs?
Alyonyah said:arazons said:Could have something like a reputation system like UO had, where when you perform bad acts, people have a choice to report you as as a criminal or murderer.
But expand on it to include things like training, greifing etc, ninja looter, not completing a zone, doesnt know class, rude, doesnt play well with others, etc... where a rating tick is only done via a group vote to have some oversight on the system. Then bolt that information onto peoples inspect window. And make it account wide, so that they cannot hide from it even after a rename or server transfer.
Like china? Do you see the potential danger in this approach? In the era of "politics" and "optics" certainly this would be abused to defame others. We should let the server form its own opinions, and we should let the guilty hide on alts like roaches if they choose (publicly document name changes). Thats the reward of a scoundrel. To sit behind a keyboard in the dark totally anonymous.
Getting it from a NPC with in game currency doesn't support the continuation of the game, nor does it matter if I have all the decor items in one shot when none of that affects another's gameplay.
Like it or not, Virtual playgrounds aren’t free of upkeep cost, so I see no reason to limit items to NPC’s when they don’t affect anyone. Make them tradable in game, and whales could fund those NPC’s stock and everyone wins.
Vandraad said:But really though, individual reputation will mean nothing IF you're part of a wholly self sufficient guild.
This is the problem. Large groups of "elite" nerds of which Ive been a part the majority of my gaming life. The best guilds though raid end game and are totally awesome as well. I only seen that once. I would certainly back a system of checks and balances among uber guilds. Me personally Im not dealing with this type of play at all this go around. Ill wait for the right people and get into end game with them rather than go after "talent" at large and deal with their childishness. If they want to be first to score digi gear so be it, let them have that glory. Ill take another kind.
P.S. The internal quality of people is substantially less than it was 20 years ago, but theres a change in the wind.
This is supposed to be THE game where a question like this isn't even asked. Because the answer should be obvious. And if you say "Why should the answer be obvious" then either you or me are in the wrong place.
I am squarely in the camp of folks who can't believe this is even being asked, and it is not a good sign that something like this would even be considered at any point and for any reason.
Has no one learned from the crap games of today, and why they are crap with no loyalty or longevity, and the kind of people and traits of personalities that things like cosmetics for a price bring out in players? It doesn't take a psychology degree to figure it out.
redgiant said:This is supposed to be THE game where a question like this isn't even asked. Because the answer should be obvious. And if you say "Why should the answer be obvious" then either you or me are in the wrong place.
I am squarely in the camp of folks who can't believe this is even being asked, and it is not a good sign that something like this would even be considered at any point and for any reason.
Has no one learned from the crap games of today, and why they are crap with no loyalty or longevity, and the kind of people and traits of personalities that things like cosmetics for a price bring out in players? It doesn't take a psychology degree to figure it out.
Well said, and 100% on point. Why debate any of this if it’s not a feature of the game? That’s what was promised. No cash shops. So it’s a dead issue. The only questions worth asking here is if VR is now considering a cash shop. Has the subscription model changed? So, perhaps we can get a straight answer on that from VR instead? I am sure it would save a lot of people a lot of time and energy invested in Pantheon going forward.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Would you support a Cosmetic/Merchandise store if it helped development and steered clear of Pay2Win boosts and items? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I do not want any kind of in game cash shop in Pantheon. No cosmetic shop of any kind. Cosmetic items and mounts are not at all in the spirit of what Pantheon was supposed to be, the cool looking gear and mounts should come from completing content in the game. A merchandise store already exists doesn't it? I'm OK with coffee mugs, T shirts, etc. But nothing in game should be buyable with RL cash.
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Would you support a Cosmetic/Merchandise store if it helped development and steered clear of Pay2Win boosts and items? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
uugghh... Pro's & Con's with this question.... I love in-game Cosmetic's only, but my fear is once Pandora's box is open it becomes the gateway to eventually allow minor Pay2Win Boosts to creep into the game. Like I said, I do enjoy Cosmetics but only for silly stuff like generic illusions or holidays attire. Weapons and other type of gear have to be off limits...
My preference is a BIG NO... However, I understand the need financially... What if those items can be pre-ordered before game launch, and only those supporting the game can only purchase Cosmetics. Once the game is launched the ability to purchase Cosmetics goes away...?
Good question.... I just fear what this approach can lead too, such as when the game starts to lose subscriptions and other finacial woes start impacting the company, will always causes a company to look for additional revenue (regardless of previously promises)...
Kilsin said:Community Debate - Would you support a Cosmetic/Merchandise store if it helped development and steered clear of Pay2Win boosts and items? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters
I think this need a little more clarity. How does a cosmetic store help development? Development happens BEFORE the game releases - so how could I get in game cosmetic items if there is no game to get them?
ANYWAY- As far as in game cosmetics - I feel that if I have an option to NOT SEE THEM then i'm ok with it. The idea of items having unique and recognizable graphics so you KNOW that person has a "Wurmslayer" sword...(and not some cosmetic graphic on a rusty short sword that makes it look awesome) is a very important part of the current game design philosophy. Maybe if you turn on roleplaying mode you can see cosmetics?? So people that enjoy roleplay can also show specific armor styles.
As for merchangise - YES! I want to support pantheon more...but once someone peledges there is not much else to do to support after.
Here are some merch ideas:
I would LOOOOOOOVE to be able to buy a cloth map of Terminus! I would pay for that! I loved my EQ Kunark cloth map I had it taped to my wall by my computer for years so I could see what zones were connected quickly and it was a nice quality map.
I would buy a Pantheon hat also.
I would buy a pantheon sticker and mouse pad for my computer tower and desk.
A pantheon lore book may be appealing tho those really into story lore. ( I would definitely buy a lore book that had a list of zones and lore for the zones that included level ranges, no maps or quests)
I could probably think of a few more but these are ones I would personally be interested in.
