Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Community Debate - Would you support...

    • 287 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:49 AM PST

    As has been stated already, I too am a pragmatist and would be willing to support a limited cash shop if it was absolutely necessary to make this game financially viable.

    Regarding the cash shop, I still would not get behind anything that boosts a character's performance or appearance.

    I would limit the cash shop to the following:

    • potions (adventure xp, crafting xp, revive w/no xp loss)--I understand people will flame me over this, but it could generate a ton of money for VR and technically doesn't affect game play. Just allows Whales to get to max level faster
    • if there will be in-game housing, I am fine with cosmetics for that housing but nothing that affects appearances outside of this
    • respecs for traits, action points, race, etc.
    • name changes--but give the rest of us a way to see what previous names were so we can appropriately punish griefers
    • server changes

    An alternative to a cash-shop that could generate additional cash flow:

    • on-line card game (EQ2 had one and it was a lot of fun, and I personally wasted a ton of money on it)
    • a website that keeps track of character stats/ranks (EQ2 also did this and it was awesome to see your server ranks/class ranks, and this could be an additional subscription of a couple bucks a month). If only 10,000 people pay an extra $2 a month for this, you just generated an extra $240,000 a year, minus hosting/support costs. 
    • 1428 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:49 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    I would support a cosmetic/service store if and only if the following were true.

    - There were absolutely no items of any kind available that affects character stats.

    - There was a serious commitment never to add items such as level or experience boosts in the future

    - For every nice cosmetic item added to the store, another 1-2 cosmetic items (or equivalent) are added that can be obtained via gameplay.

    - The store is *never* advertised in-game via a popup or any other method.  Only via the launcher and the website.

     

    I'm totally fine with things like costume appearance items, race change potions, free makeovers from the barber, and so on being in the store.  But it's a very fine line to walk as mentioned above.  Even the games that have managed to mostly walk the line well have still put items in their stores that they really shouldn't have.

     

    my fellow forummate i have refined my idea:

    'transmog tickets'

    1.  you'd have to obtain the item u want to xmog first in the game.

    2.  armour:  1 dollar for normal gear, 2 dollars for uncommon, 3 dollars for rare, 4 dollars for epic, 5 dollars for legendary

    3.  weapons:  2 dollar normal, 4 dollar uncommon, 6 dollar rare, 8 dollar epic, 10 dollar legendary.

    this does several things-  

    a.  the devs do not need to make special armour sets.  people must obtain them in game, but allows players to fully customize appearence of their toons.

    b.  creates replayability in that something they like the appeareance of would be farmed.

    c.  doesn't interfere with core gameplay :D

     

    we could add in a pet taming ticket too!

    1 dollar for critters

    2 dollar for normal mobs

    3 dollar for elite mobs

    5 dollars for bosses

    10 dollars for raid bosses

     

    damn hire me ea i'm ready!

    • 105 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:50 AM PST

    NO.

    • 1273 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:51 AM PST

    Liav said:

    On the flip side, I have spent thousands on in-game cosmetics across numerous games, and I can respect the amount of revenue it brings in. It is a compromise I am willing to make if it leads to more/better content generation post launch.

    I'd be willing to bet that most of that money was used on games that were free to play though.  Part of me wants to say "sure, do it," that way the game is cheaper for people like me...but at the same time, I don't want it in THIS game, haha...I think I'd just rather pay the monthly subcription price that they set based on the revenue they need to keep adding content.


    This post was edited by Ranarius at February 24, 2020 10:52 AM PST
    • 2138 posts
    February 24, 2020 10:53 AM PST

    The business model that Fortnite has accomplished is compelling, so I can understand the question. Personally, I don't find value in spending money on in game cosmetic items, its pixels. Then again, remember when people were selling signatures for forums? that was considered art. But it was still pixels.

    The base building in Sub-nautica is fun, but takes away from the thrill of the RL experience as exemplified in the movie "Cool hand luke" when they realize they've run out of road after laying hot asphalt and luke making a thrill out of it.

    I guess for me, there needs to be something visceral for a cash shop, so I prefer merch (T-shirts, posters, liscenced, published, and physically produced VR stuff), over cosmetics (pixels).

      

    • 2130 posts
    February 24, 2020 11:49 AM PST

    Ranarius said:

    I'd be willing to bet that most of that money was used on games that were free to play though.  Part of me wants to say "sure, do it," that way the game is cheaper for people like me...but at the same time, I don't want it in THIS game, haha...I think I'd just rather pay the monthly subcription price that they set based on the revenue they need to keep adding content.

    You'd be surprised. A significant portion of that has been on EQ/EQ2 TLP serves which require a subscription to play on. Also FFXIV which requires a subscription to play.

    I might be an anomaly, I'm not sure. I just know that $15 has been the cost of a subscription for two decades or more, and the cost of game development has increased significantly over the years.

    • 1428 posts
    February 24, 2020 12:34 PM PST

    Manouk said:

    The business model that Fortnite has accomplished is compelling, so I can understand the question. Personally, I don't find value in spending money on in game cosmetic items, its pixels. Then again, remember when people were selling signatures for forums? that was considered art. But it was still pixels.

    The base building in Sub-nautica is fun, but takes away from the thrill of the RL experience as exemplified in the movie "Cool hand luke" when they realize they've run out of road after laying hot asphalt and luke making a thrill out of it.

    I guess for me, there needs to be something visceral for a cash shop, so I prefer merch (T-shirts, posters, liscenced, published, and physically produced VR stuff), over cosmetics (pixels).

      

    to a rising amount of folks, digital products are tangible.  i mean, give the masses what they want even if it's not good for them right?  i remember back early 2000, an investor saying bitcoin wasn't worth anything, but it's really what people think has that 'in the hand' value.

    to quite a few gamers i know, the gaming world is mostly what they have.  collect all the rare mounts in a game is no different than a boy collecting baseball cards or a girl collecting dolls.  if the 'game world' sticks around and grows, those in game items start to have tangibility.  that was a reason back when wow released, pvp rank 14 accounts were primo ($5k usd plus).  now? well heh accounts are a dime a dozen lol.

    • 1428 posts
    February 24, 2020 12:36 PM PST

    Liav said:

    Ranarius said:

    I'd be willing to bet that most of that money was used on games that were free to play though.  Part of me wants to say "sure, do it," that way the game is cheaper for people like me...but at the same time, I don't want it in THIS game, haha...I think I'd just rather pay the monthly subcription price that they set based on the revenue they need to keep adding content.

    You'd be surprised. A significant portion of that has been on EQ/EQ2 TLP serves which require a subscription to play on. Also FFXIV which requires a subscription to play.

    I might be an anomaly, I'm not sure. I just know that $15 has been the cost of a subscription for two decades or more, and the cost of game development has increased significantly over the years.

    this is true.  if subs were to inflate with the cost of production, a sub in this day and age would be around 27ish dollars?  (using gold and oil-god bless murica- as a benchmark)

    • 521 posts
    February 24, 2020 12:36 PM PST

    I don't have a problem with the cash shop, exactly, it can be a good way to generate funds for the company. possibly have,

    1. naming a Mob-Boss, or write a side quest, Name a Weapon, design a dungeon. (from a selection if necessary) Ect..
    2.Pantheon ROTF Deck Building Mini Game (more like witcher, less like Magic) where card can only be bought off the shop or other things like that.

    3. Other Tavern style Games that take only tokens from the store to play, or gamble with.

    4. 3d printings come along way, give us the option to buy a 3d print of our character with all its gear ect..

    • 416 posts
    February 24, 2020 12:51 PM PST

    No to in-game items. Yes to real world merch.

    • 197 posts
    February 24, 2020 12:55 PM PST

    Thorndeep said:

    No to in-game items. Yes to real world merch.

    Exactly. I’ve supported the merch store (both the original and the re-launch) and will continue to do so. As Brasse noted previously, wearing my Pantheon hoodie while I play Pantheon has no impact on gameplay. Anything advertised or sold that has in-game representation, does affect gameplay.

    • 624 posts
    February 24, 2020 1:23 PM PST

    I have no issue with cosmetic or house items being made available through a cash shop. Not sure I would purchase anything, but those that do enjoy an in-game store won't lessen my fun in the least. If VR needs additional funding and it divides the community, then implement the store on only one/some servers, and never allow those shop items to ever transfer to a non-shop server. Probably best to wait until the mid-life years (well after release and several expansions), when housing goes in and VR wishes to attract more subs.

    • 2138 posts
    February 24, 2020 2:53 PM PST

    Liav said:

    Service based cash shop. Race changes, name changes, gender changes, server transfers, account transfers, etc. Automated systems could be set up for all of these things with a cost attached.

    If there was a grey line, I'm very much ok with this grey line, it makes alot of sense to me and is a way VR can bring in some income "respectably"

     

    Reputational issues aside, this is what they are paying for. If VR wants to sell medevil style indulgences, well... they can, can't they? It may bring in a whole new method of play- it may bring in repeat customers, say, on a PvP server. It may bring filthy casual RP carebears with a secret nasty bloodthirsty streak and deep pockets to a server where they can create a character. Do all sorts of things and then just when they embarrass themselves or feel ashamed, nothing a bit of hush money that VR can't fix now can it? Oh surely Kilsin you understand mate, yeah? a little name change, a little gender change, maybe move me over to that RP server and I'll be right as rain. I am sure we can make some arrangement, how much will it cost to keep my stuff, name your price.

    *a month or two later*

    Welcome to Pantheon! please follow the below instructions to set up your new account! once billing is established you will be able to choose your server and then be moved to character selection screen! *You have chosen a PVP server we cannot be responsible for ....*

    We've noticed you already have an account set up with Pantheon, would you like to add this character to this account?

    no

    Would you like to set up a seperate account?

    yes

    *a few weeks later*

    Heyyyy Kilsin, yeah hi. I was wondering, I set up this toon, and- well I was wondering if I could add it to my main account on the happyfun server? not sure why I didn't do it in the first place *pshaw* just breezed by it. yeah sure, my  CC number is... hmm? complaints? oh man! that must have been- see my little cousin was over for a week and I showed him the game and let him play- what did he do- no. really?! thats outreageous. know what. I'll just delete the account and give her/him a good talking to.

    *6 months later*

    Welcome to Pantheon!.....

    • 1273 posts
    February 24, 2020 2:58 PM PST

    $27 a month is still reasonable, I'd rather pay that then have a cash shop.  My ONLY issue with $27 a month is the thought that I might want other family members to play, and I'm not sure I can handle paying for 3 or 4 accounts per month.  If there was a possibility to pay for a "family account" or something that'd be cool.  But still no to cash shops.  

    • 1618 posts
    February 24, 2020 3:18 PM PST

    Nephele said:

    I would support a cosmetic/service store if and only if the following were true.

    - There were absolutely no items of any kind available that affects character stats.

    - There was a serious commitment never to add items such as level or experience boosts in the future

    - For every nice cosmetic item added to the store, another 1-2 cosmetic items (or equivalent) are added that can be obtained via gameplay.

    - The store is *never* advertised in-game via a popup or any other method.  Only via the launcher and the website.

     

    I'm totally fine with things like costume appearance items, race change potions, free makeovers from the barber, and so on being in the store.  But it's a very fine line to walk as mentioned above.  Even the games that have managed to mostly walk the line well have still put items in their stores that they really shouldn't have.

     

    Agreed

    • 1921 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:00 PM PST

    No.

    Justification for "No"? Historically, every game with a cash shop becomes Pay2Win.  100%.  There is no example I'm aware of that is an exception.  Even if there is one, some or a few exceptions?  Every MMO I've ever personally played since 1995 that has added a cash shop has become Pay2Win, in some way.  So, my personal experience is, just from asking the question, you're STILL considering doing it, which is truly unfortunate.  Every time this has come up on the forums, it doesn't generate a positive reaction from the target demographic, so I don't know why you're bringing it up again.  The 2016 view is fine.
    What's the problem with cash shops?  They work.  The most valuable asset people have is time, and if you can open your wallet and bypass that, many/most/some will do it.

    As soon as companies see the correlation between the cash shop uptake and revenue or profit, they divert some/more/additional development resources towards it, and away from the features of the game that don't depend on it, or benefit from it, or that don't need it.  It's too attractive for the marketing, sales, and finance departments of a company to pass up.  Compared to the "boring" success and narrow margins of subscriptions, it's no wonder the profit driven portions of businesses can't resist.

    In some cases, the only way a for-profit game stays online is due to a cash shop.  I don't play those particular games, but it's a testament to the effectiveness of a cash shop by preying on the laziness and greed of human nature.
    Even if it's kept entirely separate from the game?  Why have it, then?  It's a drain on resources to no purpose.  If you're going to have one, it has to justify it's existence, which further drives companies towards Pay2Win.  Again, Pay2Win worksIt always works.  It will always work.  If you have no ethics, no integrity, no morals, no conscience, no problem with 100% pure capitalism, a pay2win cash shop is how you guarantee success.  Hopefully, instead, Visionary Realms demonstrates they have ethics, integrity, morals, a conscience, aren't a fan of 100% pure capitalism, and as a business entity, collectively choose the right path.

    Other options, imo:
    -Charge a large monthly subscription fee for dev server access, starting today.  Whatever build you have of the client, subscribers get, at least weekly.  No data persistence, wipe anything/everything any time, on a schedule if you want, no support, no GM's.  Credit cards only.  GeoIP + AVS + TOTP only.
    -Charge a larger/higher monthly subscription fee, post launch.  If your public design goals gather a large enough niche, or target demographic, they will pay a larger fee.

    If none of the above works?  Then the game "deserves" to fail, from many competitive, capitalist, or business perspectives. 
    If it's not attractive enough?  It should fail.  If it's too niche?  It should fail.  If the profit margin is too slim?  It should fail. 
    America, and the global economy, is not a charity.  If you're a non-profit, different story.  VR is not a non-profit, or put another way, VR is a for-profit business, afaik.

    If you want to talk about a plan to open source the server and client code bases/trees in the event of Pantheon ceasing to function as a for-profit business?  Would love to have that discussion, too.  I believe Brad mentioned such a plan, in the past.

    • 125 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:03 PM PST
    In game cash shop cosmetics/items will break down the illusion and immersion of Terminus being its own world every time they see a cool cash item graphic purchased through wealth of another world.

    Cosmetic items sold before the game is produced to help with funding? That’s 100% in the safe and VR should do that if they need to.

    The reason cosmetic’s sold during development are acceptable is because in game they can are visual milestone markers for how experienced / long a player has been playing.

    For instance, if there was 100$ cape or tabard with A Battlefield Cross of a flaming sword only available during preproduction. Every player will know exactly where that tabard or cape came from: funding the continuation of a great mans legacy.

    • 429 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:05 PM PST

    Not okay with any item that gives skills/or any in game items ( to include any crafted items be it carpentary /potions ect ... if A person wants  to change hair color or skin color or even buy  piccasso paintings for thier house /apt/home by all means sell it make your cash .... but if it is crafted/ skills in game drop .. against it ... as for armor color can be made by potions or alchemy not for sale .. hair /skin/items for homes /even none game breaking items ..sure go for it .. hope you make money .. but i perfer a paid script and learn/craft/drop items .. alll else fair game to get whatever cash you need to make this game a success .

    15$ a script was long ago lets raise this price as development n cost far excede it . seriously can't even supply your coffee fix for a month on 15$ . cheapest intertainment since when ? 1980's or 70's ? 

     


    This post was edited by Shea at February 24, 2020 4:12 PM PST
    • 291 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:08 PM PST

    HemlockReaper said:

    4. 3d printings come along way, give us the option to buy a 3d print of our character with all its gear ect..

     

    Great idea imo

    • 125 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:13 PM PST
    Also sell no drop newbie sets(3-5 pieces, preferable appearance slots) that characters can use into their 20’s. Only available for purchase during beta, only claimable on official release. People will keep this set, and will wear it in trade hubs even though they’re max level- just to show off “OG Swag”.
    • 12 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:26 PM PST

    Merchandise is great. I would love a coffee mug or t-shirt every now and then. In game cash shop.....I know it has potential to make a lot of money, but personally, it kills the immersive experience as well as kills any drive in me to obtain cosmetic items via playing the game. As many have said above, one has more pride when they obtain items, cosmetic or power changing, through in game accomplishments. Also, when I see other people with mounts, high tier gear, pets or other items that only come from playing the game; then I know what they went through to get it and have more respect for them. Someone may argue, "What if the items in the cash shop can't be obtained in game, and there is a separate pool of items that can only be obtained through the game?" My concern though is that we end up with really awesome looking items from the cash shops, and the obtainable items in game are kinda meh or only decent. I know, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder," but come on....some of these cash shop items in other games obviously have more man hours put in to them than the in game obtainable items, and I think it would be easy to fall into that because those cash shop items end up generating more money in the end.

    Also, I would rather pay a higher monthly sub than see a cash shop in game.


    This post was edited by Enkidu at February 24, 2020 4:32 PM PST
    • 2419 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:33 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Would you support a Cosmetic/Merchandise store if it helped development and steered clear of Pay2Win boosts and items? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    Nope.  Not at all.

    What you should do instead is actually promote your product more by showing more of what you have accomplished.  Take control of the damn narative, finally, of this game.  It isn't like many of us haven't been telling you that for 5 years now.

    Get the website update, get more current screenshots of more things posted, post some videos of a character just running around. Post comparisons of concept art to 'final' in-game object like you did with that spriggan in the last dev stream.  That is what will get people to donate more money.

    • 429 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:34 PM PST

     

     

    Vandraad said:

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Would you support a Cosmetic/Merchandise store if it helped development and steered clear of Pay2Win boosts and items? #MMORPG #CommunityMatters

    Nope.  Not at all.

    What you should do instead is actually promote your product more by showing more of what you have accomplished.  Take control of the damn narative, finally, of this game.  It isn't like many of us haven't been telling you that for 5 years now.

    Get the website update, get more current screenshots of more things posted, post some videos of a character just running around. Post comparisons of concept art to 'final' in-game object like you did with that spriggan in the last dev stream.  That is what will get people to donate more money.

    AMEN 

    • 370 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:48 PM PST

    Liav said:

    Ranarius said:

    I'd be willing to bet that most of that money was used on games that were free to play though.  Part of me wants to say "sure, do it," that way the game is cheaper for people like me...but at the same time, I don't want it in THIS game, haha...I think I'd just rather pay the monthly subcription price that they set based on the revenue they need to keep adding content.

    You'd be surprised. A significant portion of that has been on EQ/EQ2 TLP serves which require a subscription to play on. Also FFXIV which requires a subscription to play.

    I might be an anomaly, I'm not sure. I just know that $15 has been the cost of a subscription for two decades or more, and the cost of game development has increased significantly over the years.

     

    I think EQ was $9.99 when it first launched, later raising the price. They also offered a special server for $19.99 with more GM events and content released early on. So it's not fair to say that MMO's have ALWAYS cost $15, there has been price inflation.

     

    A couple things. I like how FF14 handles the loot shop, or part of it. 12 months after an event has ended they will sometimes add the cosmetic rewards from that event to the item shop. This allows people who missed the event to still get the item, but it allows people to earn the same item if they played during the event. The 12 month gap helps prevent the mentality of people thinking "they made it grindy to get me to buy it" because when you have a 12 month gap you forget about the grind.

     

    There can not be name changes, race changes, or server transfers of any kind unless under extraordinary circumstances. It is impossible to police a community and server when people can leave or hide who they were. This was a major factor in why EQ worked.

     

    All in all I'd be fine with no item shop in Pantheon, but FF14 has shown that it can work without impacting the game. 

    • 1921 posts
    February 24, 2020 4:59 PM PST

    EppE said: ... All in all I'd be fine with no item shop in Pantheon, but FF14 has shown that it can work without impacting the game.
    Hm. https://www.polygon.com/2017/5/31/15721490/final-fantasy-14-stormblood-xiv-level-boost-scenario-skip-cost-price-naoki-yoshida-interview .
    Seems like that's pay2win, by any definition.  I would say, if that's the alternative?  I'd go with no cash shop and/or no item shop, instead.